The Upper Tribunal (Tax) has on its list a case of great interest to the football fans of Scotland.
Well, actually it is listed as five separate appeals, which will however be heard at the one time.
HMRC is listed as being the appellant against the following respondents:-
- The former Rangers Football Club PLC (now RFC 2012 PLC) (in liquidation
- GM Mining Ltd
- Premier Property Group Ltd
- Murray Group Management Ltd
- Murray Group Holdings Ltd
This provides one explanation for the decision of HMRC to continue with the appeal, despite the demands by Rangers fans to stop the tax man’s “persecution” of Rangers. We have heard people talking about the “waste of money” involved in HMRC continuing to pursue the case, and indeed the taxman has been accused of a “vendetta”. Brian Donohoe MP, who entirely by coincidence is, or was, the Secretary of the Rangers Supporters Club at the Houses of Parliament, has been vocal in his criticism of the “waste of money” involved in pursuing the case.
Apart from the liquidated Rangers oldco, the case is against 4 parties, all of which are still in existence. There are issues of important legal precedent to be confirmed or overturned in an appeal.
But there is also the prospect, even ignoring the unrecoverable sums which could be due by oldco Rangers, of the taxman recovering substantial sums from the other respondents.
When therefore can we expect this appeal to be heard?
The Upper Tribunal website lists pending appeals.
This discloses the date of receipt of the appeal at the Tribunal and the date fixed for the hearing.
There are a couple of appeals lodged in January and February 2013 where appeals have been fixed for March NEXT YEAR.
Appeals lodged back in December 2012 are listed for March 2014 as well.
The Rangers appeal, lodged at the Tribunal following the First Tier Tribunal granting leave to appeal, was received on 28th January 2013.
There are various appeals in line before the Rangers case. It therefore seems not unreasonable to think that the Rangers appeal might not take place until well into 2014, and in fact it is perfectly possible that it will be in the second half of next year.
Whilst the FTT case took many days, the appeal is likely only to take two or three days – the facts are not in dispute (or more properly open to challenge) – rather it is the interpretation of the facts and the application of the law which is at issue. That therefore takes a lot less time than hearing all of the evidence.
We are looking therefore at refreshing our memories about EBTs around the summer of next year, maybe during the European Championships.
Of course, once the hearing happens, the Tribunal will still have to consider its verdict, which will undoubtedly take some weeks, or probably months, before the result is announced.
And then we have the prospects of further appeals to the Inner House of the Court of Session and finally (subject of course to any changes which occur as a result of the independence referendum) to the UK Supreme Court.
The question is what form of “Rangers” will exist by the time this ends …
Posted by Paul McConville
Random Thoughts Re Scots Law by Paul McConville 
hows doing a quick summary of tonight’s tweets for us all ?
mick.
Tweets ? Is there more than one ?
Yes go to Charlotte fakeover@ mason and pinsert docos 2 + the regan letter lol am on phone a would up load
Call me Timmy nice but dim, but if there is one person leaking all of these documents on Charlotte Fakes then it can only be Mr Craig Whyte, or an agent for him. Apart from GCHQ, the Illuminati and our omniscient Lord, no-one else has had access to all of these documents.
Wasn’t Operation Charlotte Mr Whyte’s scheme to acquire Rangers from David Murray? Craig perhaps feels he has been unfairly excluded from the deal by these fake conspirators. Hence “Charlotte Fakes”. As we all know this company turnaround was going to be the the pinnacle of his career, albeit he was hiding behind frontmen. “How could those double-dealing bitches have done that to me?”.
Charlotte Fakeovers @CharlotteFakes 3h
Investigation reminder http://www.scribd.com/doc/142817881/Letter-to-Craig-Whyte-13-05-13-2 … and a typical opening letter to other parties. http://i.imgur.com/FGp1QE9.jpg #MightNotBother
mick.
Thanks mick.
@Jimbhoy,
Maybe not pitchforks at Hampden. Blue flashing lights will do the trick. They were quick enough to have wee Craigy’s castle gates off!
Another investigation with no ending!
Phil mac made a comment about about Paul being able to see into the future this week.
With the latest hot off the press announcement I’m not sure if that was tongue in cheek or this blog was a bit of a wind up.
Or both or neither….
UTT hearing has been set for July 19 this year
back onto the topic lol
@alextomo
Assume everyone knows BTC next stage July 19th appeal?
Click to access hearings-register.pdf
Evening all
Just want to ask a wee question about what celtic have lost in revenue due to the demise of the govanites
It has been said on here tonight and many times before that we have lost a lot of money due to not playing against the tax dodgers.
My question is this, how much have we lost.
A game against them would be sold out, ie 60000, average gate this year is 46000 so if we played them twice the average would rise to approx 1200 more.
I understand that we can expect more hospitality etc and the non season tickets sold at a premium, but I cannot see where playing against the sevconians would have made Celtic a LOT MORE money.
So am I wrong on this?
Would not the average gate have been much nearer capacity and therefore much more revenue accrued had there been a powerful challenge from Rangers?
i.e. a competition, not a procession?
@david
Well as a lot of Rrangers fans seem to love processions I am quite happy to follow follow the Celtic prcocessions for possibly the next decade 🙂
Good for you then Ecojon.
Personally, I would get bored, and possibly concerned about tumbling crowds and diminishing revenues, leading to a downward spiral of European competitiveness.
@David. Did you get bored watching Rangers win 9-in-a-row?
@steven
Who knows what will happen with a permanently weakened Deadgers? Perhaps it will dilute the nastiness from the other side? Maybe more families will be happy to come back to football if that happens.
It’s like when the govt say – if you put the top rate of tax up to 50% then tax take will go down. Yes it will in the short term but after 2-3 years, who knows.
I don’t see the need for dark gloom in Scottish Football. Yes there will be fewer millionaire footballers in Scotland, but the football might be more competitive and if all teams focus on the Cruyff turn rather than the lump up the park then crowds might not fall too much. The difficulty is this transition phase but we will find a new equilibrium albeit with much less money in the game.
FC Basel seem to do OK in Europe – they lost to Chelsea in the Europa semi, but they knocked out Spurs. Switz is a country of 8m or so, albeit a very rich country.
Steven, I think the massive police costs and of course the bill for the inevitable trashing of their end, would reduce profit from the matches to a negligible amount. Remember, these games were replaced by matches against other sides which will have helped alleviate any loss.
I firmly believe Scottish football at the top level will get over the novelty of rangers not being there pretty quickly, especially when other sides are now playing for a spot in Europe and the title of “Best of the rest”.
I hope Celtic loan out more of their very talented development squad this year, to give them more game time at the top level. Of course the cream, like young Atanjic, deserve their shot in the first team squad, but there are plenty more that could enhance the other sides while gaining valuable experience.
As for the tax case, I hope the new rangers do not recieve any kind of sanction, even if they lose. They are a new club
and should not be punished for the sins of their fathers.
They are doing a capital job of destroying themselves from the inside, they need no external help from the
“Celtic controlled” Taxman.LOL
Geddy, who are this club you talk of, Rangers?
They should be hounded until there is no sign of them, the big hoose must be demolished!
@JohnBhoy & Monti
Buongiorno signori 🙂
Where’s Regan today Monti ? ….hiding in his mammy’s wardrobe,or helping Campbell with his shredding,if the latest from CF is to be believed.
Meetings with the Craigie boy reveal he wasn’t concerned that he’d been disqualified as a director. ” Such fun”
Morning Maggie, how this pri£k can head into his work each day is beyond me!
@Monti
Never fear Monti,I feel he won’t have to for much longer…. Allegedly 🙂
HMRC v The former Rangers Football Club Plc (now RFC 2012 – in liquidation) being heard on 19th July in Edinburgh.
As I understand, it’s only a procedural hearing, not a full hearing of the case.
@Raymilland
Oh that’s good because they’ll be able to get the name corrected 🙂
The Rangers supporters are now telling the board to behave.
“The RST would like to remind all board members that they are representatives of Rangers Football Club”
How things have changed.
Strange days indeed.
(For Ray Manzarek)
My apologies John. It is of course “The rangers”. LOL
Official statement on the The Rangers website: “The tactical use of the media must stop immediately.” So that’s Jabba redundant then.
Just get them tae fuc%……again!!!!!!!
@JB Well that certainly did not come from Sally, he doesn’t do ‘tactics’… 🙂
@JohnBhoy
Thought he already was…..:-)
“The lack of class is something rangers fans are not used to” said a fans spokesman……. while the rest of the country rolled around on the floor laughing like f##k.
Fra: Bill Struth, SDM, Whyte, Green lol.
Terry Hurlock. 😀
IBROX HAS TO BE SHUT DOWN, IT’S THAT SIMPLE FOR ME & I’LL NEVER CHANGE MY MIND ON THAT!
Only when Ibrox has been demolished, there is no team playing in blue with that awful club crest on it’s shirt & their fans shipped to a barren frozen landscape, shall I be appeased !
I would also ban, Orange walks & the flying of union jacks in Scotland, I would also knock down every Orange & Masonic hall in Scotland! Now who wants me to run for candidate in Scottish elections? Time for a revolution….
@Monti I can feel you are holding back here mate, let it all out now.. 🙂
@JB
He really should stop sitting on the fence JB and have the courage of his convictions and tell us what he really thinks 🙂
Monti,what can I say,except HH.
HH! BACK AT YA 🙂
The Monster Raving Looney Party?
While you’re at it, ban the flying of the Irish tricolour & demolish every Catholic institution & use the buildings as museums, which they should already be anyway, just to get the balance right.
Morning all,
Does everyone agree that if Rangers were awash with cash when they used EBTs then the EBT’s cannot be considered an advantage ?
And if they were then declared illegal, it cannot be claimed the advantage was unfair, ?
@Niall No, makes no sense what so ever… The question is what was the reason rangers started the EBT system?
As an East Fife fan I am sure you will have a suitable answer to that…
Jimbhoy,
You forgot to tell me why it makes no sense, there are thousands of wealthy individuals and companies who use tax avoidance schemes.
If Rangers were awash with cash then the EBTs were to avoid paying unnecessary tax, so lets get back to my question and your explanation of NO.
@Uriniall
What do you think; you’re the expert.
Ray,
You also seem incapable of answering a simple question, strange that innit ?
You’re taking the piss.
You should post the above link, so that we know when you are not being serious.
It wasn’t their cash to spend…….f……f…….s …….:(
@Niall You have 2 job offers for your window cleaning skills, exactly the same contractual details except the ‘EF Glass Technicians’ company will pay you £50k pa and the ‘RFC Glass Technicians’ company will offer you £80k pa for doing exactly the same job, in fact it might be a bit of an easier life at the latter company, who would you be more tempted to join????
Jim,
No more analogies please just answer the question, if Rangers had a 100 million in the bank can you say the EBTs provided them with an advantage ?
I give you a straight fwd analogy to answer your Hypothetical question. Rangers have never been awash with cash they tried to compete with the big boys (using EBTs) and alas failed miserably…
You answer the question of Why you think rangers decided to go down the route of EBTs? If you answer it truly you answer your own hypothetical question IMO… But I know you won’t.. Because it is not in your MO….
Jim,
You are joining a long list of people who cannot answer one simple question, your analogy does not answer my question, try again, I am reading a lot of deflection and I just wonder why.
@deNiall
So fed up of being corrected for all the erroneous info you’ve claimed as “evidence” that you’re reduced to straight out whataboutery?
RFC (IL) were NOT awash with cash, so your hypothetical question is sheer speculation/wishful thinking.
Tell us about Julian Danskin Niall, no analogies just answer the question.
Monti,
I have known JD for some 40 years,what would you like to know ?
What was the reason he left East Fife?
Try this then. Of course it would because it would have provided them with the security of £100m in the bank. However as they didn’t have £100m in the bank and for most of the EBT period were running at a loss (hence BoS/HBOS/LTSB loans/overdraft) it provided them with even more of an advantage in spending more money than they should have had available AGAIN!
tykebhoy,
Top of the morning to you sir, unfortunately if they had 100 million they have no need for more advantage in using EBTs, the advantage of the 100million is more than enough.
Do you agree ?
yes
@JimBhoy
But is that a hypothetical question 🙂
@Eco as you can see from my last reply we came to the same conclusion… The question is Why did rangers feel the need to use EBTs, surely these would actually cost rangers to administer so what advantage did they think they could glean from their use??? There is ONLY one answer..
JIim,
You seem to have lost the ability to read, do you want me to repeat the question ?
Sporting advantage!
@Niall
Oh dear, not back on this subject again are we Niall? We covered this question ad nauseum towards the end of Paul McC’s previous blog and I don’t believe the debate went in your favour.
Your slip is beginning to show.
Charlie,
Please don’t self proclaim victories, and await your answer to my question, if Rangers had 100 million in the babk can we say the EBTs provided them with an advantage ?
Yes or No ?
Charlie,
You have gone very silent for a winner.
@Niall
Your sarcasm is very poor and equally misplaced. I’m working Niall!!
Please refer to the previous blog for answers to your questions but, fear not, I’ll get back to you later when I have time with any clarifications you require.
charlie,
Please refer to the previous blog, I asked the same question, but you take your time and have a wee think about it.
babk ?
Oh no, not the spelling police, just wave a white flag.
I’ll leave the spelling corrections to Mick….lol.
Niall
Yes is the answer
Any player looking to,sign on will take the less tax route.
Do you think all of the players theynsigned on ebt schemes would have signed otherwise?
Whatnis the point of the question?
They didnt have anything like that sum of cash, and dont bother producing figures from sir Mintys reign as no one believes them.
YES
@charliedon
Seems to be a real detachment from reality but then anyone who states that ‘in their eyes’ there is no difference between an internment camp and a Nazi concentration camp and who cites the world’s leading holocaust denial website as a source is certainly someone I have no wish to engage with.
ecojon,
You have an uncanny inability to recognize blatant dark humor, you are becoming desperate and it shows, try and recognize the importance of being earnest when it is being waived in front of your nose.
@Eco jeez missed that I feel like a part timer on this site these days… Or maybe I just don’t read sh!t like that…. 🙂
@JimBhoy
It was all quite interesting as to how his mind works – having looked into the pit I put him on the ‘ignore list’ and unlike most who have landed on that list he – like Violet – will remain there.
I will debate with anyone – even people I am totally at odds with but Niall has nothing to offer IMO other than deflection and attempting to divert the energy and thrust of this blog with inane nonsense and some seriously dangerous stuff as well, it would appear, from his own twisted reasoning – I won’t actually term it logic as I think that is a step too far for him 🙂
ecojon,
You ignore me because when you do not, you lose, its very simple, no need to invent excuses for your inability to debate.
Niall ffs! They used the EBT scheme because they couldn’t afford the players salaries ffs! There would be no Gazza or Laudrup without EBT ‘s….are you getting it yet FFS?
Monti,
Calm doon ma friend, it is a hypothetical question.
Too right its hypothetical
Rangers with £100mill in the bank, lol
badger,
You forgot to answer my question ?
@badgerbhoy
They’ve got to stick to the hypothetical as the reality just can’t be faced by them 🙂
ecojon,
The reality is an illegal EBT is not an advantage if Rangers had a zillion pounds, and this my friend is self evident. The only thing that makes it an advantage is unaffordability.
@ eco.
Charlie,
Please don’t self proclaim victories
ecojon,
You ignore me because when you do not, you lose.
What a walloper!
@Jimbhoy.
Just to put a new angle on proceedings. Did you notice that newtz asked some questions of the SFA. ?
@Niall ‘Dynamite’ Walker
The other clubs could not afford the risk of using EBT’s. Rangers afforded the risk and are paying the penalty.
@eco
Is that deNiall you are referring to there eco?
@deNiall
“The only thing that makes it an advantage is unaffordability.”
You’ve just answered your own hypothetical & shot yourself squarely in the foot. Well done. They DID NOT HAVE a zillion in the bank, they were living off other peoples (the banks) money.
They were awash with fkn cash Niall, your cash,my cash, tax payers cash & the creditors cash…..it wasn’t THEIR cash tho!! You getting it yet Niall? Sharpen up son.
Monti,
Everyone including you is having problems answering a simple question.
Yes or No ?
“Does everyone agree that if Rangers were awash with cash when they used EBTs then the EBT’s cannot be considered an advantage ?”
The answer is NO how many times do you have to hear it.. The reason is simple, Blind fekin Greed would lead those running rangers to seek any sort of financial advantage.. If Rangers had a zillion in the bank the use of EBTs would still give them an advantage.. Why would it not?
” Blind fekin Greed would lead those running rangers to seek any sort of financial advantage.. If Rangers had a zillion in the bank the use of EBTs would still give them an advantage.. Why would it not? ”
Excellent stuff, one brave soul has decided to answer my question.
An advantage is a condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position, if Ranger had a zillion in the bank then they could have achieved the same condition without the EBT, ergo the EBT is in of itself of no advantage.
Do you agree ?
@Niall NO again, a zillion in the bank would have no effect on EBTs, the greed part suggest more is good, so an advantage would be had in using a scheme that (financially) attracted players to be recruited on £1.5m contracts as opposed to £1m contracts at no real expense to rangers. The zillion in the bank safe to do with as they wished… Floating pitch, stairway to sevconia, who knows..
The reason they have a zillion is because they can exploit such loopholes..
That was my last reply on the subject, I cannot explain it in any simpler terms… Moving on to reality..
Morinin niall. I see what your getting at here the answer is 1, no I don’t agree, two if they were awash with cash then how on earth have they ended all washed up, plus the monies they were apparently awash with was the banks, of which debt was slid over on to MIH who weren’t awash with cash either, they are on their uppers now and will follow, then the flotation shares that murray had to buy using MIH “money” not his own, because the fans lacked the desire to dig deep. This, 50 million I think it was, will no doubt end up being another burden on the public purse as MIH look likely to go down the pan too, this company had debts nearing a billion pounds at one stage, don’t know what the picture is now.
So if rangers were awash with cash then where did it come from? I know king put something like 40 million in and I think a company named enic or something similar put 20 million in but this disappeared like snow off a dyke (slid over to MIH ?) much to the two contributors annoyance who ended up with zilch for their investment.
Fair play to you for the never ending defence of your club but it doesn’t matter which way it is painted, twisted or bent your club were up to no good and are a lesson to all.
@JW what East Fife are bent and up to no good?
jimbhoy if he’s a east fife fan then they must have uprooted and shot off down govan way wi change of colours to boot!
Morning Jimmy, I am not defending them, barca provided me proof they needed the money and as far as I am concerned this proves the unfair advantage, and it is right they should be stripped of titles.
” Morinin niall. I see what your getting at here the answer is 1, no I don’t agree, two if they were awash with cash then how on earth have they ended all washed up, ”
Jimmy, its a hypothetical case, they have the money and they are not bust, in this scenario is the EBT an advantage ?
Have I not given my thoughts on the matter in much the same way, rangers, murray and his company did not have the money or at the least the banks nerve was beginning to go, so this scheme was foolishly used for advantage and to generate a stream to pay salaries, which is what matters in this case, don’t know what your trying to achieve with this one, if they had the money and were not bust I still think it is an advantage, why wouldn’t it be? It still equates to the same thing no matter how much money they had, worse if you like.
jimmy,
If the advantage they gained was to sign players, and they could obviously afford to sign the players, then logically the EBTs did not provide the money to sign the players, ergo the EBTs provided no advantage.
Rangers weren’t awash with cash.
It was admitted that Rangers could attract a better class of player by using EBTs (MrBlack I think, and others. They were an advantage.
Can’t understand your second sentence.
No, nobody in their right mind agrees. Rangers were awash with cash which wasn’t theirs. Dodged paying tens of millions in tax. No advantage there?? East Fife fan?Lol! The obviously biased type of irrational arguments i hear constantly from my Sevconian friends.
Where’s Carson? Has he got his tent pitched early at Drumcree? You’ll have a long wait Carson……Because you won’t be marching down Garvaghy road!!! :D……
VICTORY WAS IN THE LAUGHTER OF LIQUIDATION, COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF JELLY & ICE CREAM & A REPLICA EUROPEAN CUP FROM 1967! I HAVE NOT & REFUSE TO STOP LAUGHING…..:)
It did give them a huge advantage, does that answer your question?
Why deal in hypotheticals when the facts are right in front of you?
@Badgerbhoy Because the fan of East Fife thinks he is a smart @ss when we all know he is just a minor irritation….
Jim,
Have I ever called you names to deserve your insults, nope, I simply ask you a question and you get irritated, this is just not good form sir.
Now pull your socks up and get your brain into gear and try and support your contention with logic rather than abuse.
@Niall read back to my answers to your nonsensical question and try and digest the content without putting your own spin on it.. It is not rocket science and some of your dogmatic replies on the subject have been an irritation to many.. My socks well and truly pulled up and brain often in the correct gear, I apologise for any abuse..
Jim, I have digested your post and it plainly contradicts common sense.
If Rangers could afford the players without EBTs then to claim EBTs enabled them to afford the players is patently untrue, therefore the EBT is in of itself not an advantage.
“If Rangers could afford the players without EBTs” – They couldn’t, that’s why the EBT’s were in operation.
@JimBhoy
Well that’s you telt Jim,”pull your socks up” 🙂 I’m in hysterics here,there is always room for a cliche to make a point,but Mr Walker takes this to a new level entirely…….When was the last time that particular cliche was considered at the cutting edge of repartee.I certainly haven’t used it in a gazillion years and I’m a bloody teacher for goodness sake.
I’m with eco here Jim,ignore list.What a complete and utter waste of time that thread of hypothetical questioning was,designed to deflect from the real issues.
Maggie,
Your inability to rebut any content has become a cliche, and a ” teacher ” of any description would acknowledge this.
@JimBhoy
He’s here to drag the blog backwards to inane hypothetical issues that matter not a jot. There are serious issues happening right now for Scottish Football which is what they don’t want us to be discussing because it involved the SFA and Rangers and their corrupt relationship which is the biggest danger facing Scottish Football.
The UTT and beyond possibly will sort out the remaining issues concerning the EBTs and the process starts in July. It may well be that Murray might decide to throw in the towel.
I have always stated on here that Poone’s opinion was very robust. So much so that the majority decision didn’t even attempt to slap it down. Where rabid Rangers fans have got it wrong here is thinking that HMRC are out to punish RFC. They ain’t – they just want their precedent and if Rangers had acted responsibly from Day 1 and agreed a settlement – which would have been affordable – then Hector would have picked an English club to achieve the legal precedent it requires, Simples.
But there is this element in the Rangers support, which has been even more clearly identified in recent times, that cannot accept that blame lies with DM and the club. Although I am heartened to actually see some informed and mature debate starting to take place on some Rangers websites.
I truly believe there is a possibility that some Rangers fans are beginning to see that the road to success is to worry about finance and football and to ditch the baggage and I, for one, will support these Brave Pioneers in every way to reform their club.
ecojon,
” He’s here to drag the blog backwards to inane hypothetical issues that matter not a jot. ”
You my friend discuss and fantasize about nothing else but hypothetical issues, in fact it is your raison d’etre, few if anything you claim can you actually prove. Now I suggest if you wish to pretend you are a journalist you write about stuff that is actually factual and not hypothetical, I have no such pretensions so I can indulge with total freedom.
As for my hypothesis, it does matter a jot because unless one could prove Rangers could not afford the payers without EBTs then there is no advantage, i is an undeniable fact.
I think it is safe to classify Charlottes Fakes claims as hypothetical, Rangers broken history is hypothetical, SDM, CW and CGs criminal activities are hypothetical, SFA bias is hypothetical….etc etc etc.
Are you sure it is me that is dragging the blog backwards ?
badger,
The point I am trying to make is the EBT itself is not an advantage, and an illegal EBT is in itself not an unfair advantage.
Do you agree ?
I have been reading this blog for only 3 days. Your input has me baffled. If, by using a tax avoidance scheme, I can employ 3 players for the same price as honest employers can employ 2, I am definitely gaining an advantage. Its a no-brainer. You should be asking yourself why your club got into such a mess to start with and how such crooks as Whyte & Green were able to take control. Stop ruining a decent debate with your inane attempts at jurisprudence & philosophy.
I don’t agree.
Badgerbhoy
Defending Barrister – Your Lordship, my client admits he robbed the bank, but if he had been a billionaire he would have gained little material benefit from his crime.
Judge – I agree with your hypothesis, but your client was not billionaire. He was an impoverished scumbag who was insanely jealous of his more successful neighbours and he broke the law in a desperate attempt to emulate them.
Rangers fans’ chief: ‘Brian Stockbridge must go’
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/rangers-fans-chief-brian-stockbridge-must-go-1-2939495
@Eco having read a wee bit on some rangers forums I think the rangers fans just want rid of the lot of them and to be honest I can see why, but with no alternative other than the mcKrays and Dodgy dave where do they turn… maybe Chico pyro pants will be back for a short while if so I fear the worst.
— The SFA could be presented with an Xmas video message to them where Chico and Whyte are fireside, sipping on large brandys and smoking the best havanas lit by £100 notes from the IPO, in their slippers and smoking jackets talking over how they have managed to jointly hose the rangers and Regan would still send a letter to Ibrox seeking ‘Clarification’..
@Jim Bhoy
Im picturing Alexsander & Sergei the meerkats in your scenario Jim:-)
Kerr told the Record: “It’s unbecoming of the club. The lack of class is not something Rangers fans have been used to.
———————————————————————————————–
OK if you say so. Ibrox has always been gushing with the dignity.
Looks like the media campaign is well underway to get “Walter” and co to start a revolution.
@Eco, Badgerbhoy Isn’t it funny that rangers fans are calling for transparency yet slating the media (Jackson/DR) for putting out actual news on rangers and those running the club…
The recent malky video, who was IA actually trying to implicate here was it Malkie or Stockbridge (Or both)? If it was Malky it has backfired big time..
@JimBhoy
I’ve had a bit of a laugh at how easily they managed to adopt the ‘Orange’ thing and walk the walk to impress a small, but vociferous, section of the Rangers support.
But they obviously hadn’t a clue about the working class attitude and culture in this country towards drink. But I wouldn’t actually believe that it was necessarily Imran who leaked the Stockbridge video. It obviously comes from the spiv camp but who in it. Is it ones who no longer have access to Ibrox or someone else who does have.
What most have missed is that Murray wasn’t appointed a director of RIFC Plc until 14 December 2012 and yet the video was shot in September according to the Record. I think that truly reflects what was going on here.
If Stockridge and his bruiser of a moll, who was escorting him to dinner, were so furious about Murray’s conduct in September why did he agree to serve on the board of a public company with him in December when he regards Murray as a dipso chairman. Something just doesn’t ring true about this.
Anyway I feel a great responsibility lies on Stockbridge for not ensuring the security of his video – I truly believe that was his responsibility especially as Finance Director of Rangers. But let’s not forget the fact that he taped it in the first place. His excuse is so weak it’s a joke.
A anything Niall says file under deflective pish and ignore lol
Mick,
How convenient.
@mick
I have always found that one of the best ways to help an obsessive mind is not to feed it or respond to its outpourings of lunacy. We actually will be helping his rehab as an East Fife fan once he awakens and realises he isn’t a Bear but more a lost soul crying in the wilderness.
ecojon,
You are a Celtic fan who rarely discusses Celtic, instead you spend most of your waking life discussing a team you do not support, now in anyone’s language this indicates a mind obsessed.
You are funny.
@Niall Walker
You are an East Fife fan who rarely discusses East Fife,instead you spend most of your waking life boring us with your pomposity,idiotic deflective hypothetical questions and your cliche ridden interminable garbage,of which that EBT thread was the worst.
You are NOT funny.God! If only you were,people might feel a bit more
well disposed towards you.
Maggie,
Who is ” us “, how many of you are there in your mind ?
You and your imaginary friends are entitled to their opinion, for what it is worth.
Mick & Ecojon –
The problem with Niall or Niall’s problem
Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)
” Persons diagnosed with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder are characterized by unwarranted feelings of self-importance. They have a sense of entitlement and demonstrate grandiosity in their beliefs and behavior. They have a strong need for admiration, but lack feelings of empathy for others. These qualities are usually defenses against a deep feeling of inferiority and of being unloved.”
Wiki
Niall, if you wish you may regard this as a hypothetical diagnosis.
Creggandduff,
I only asked a rather simple question, put your Freud manual away.
A wonder what Charlotte will give us to day the taPe with ogilvie saying don’t worry about your directors ban al sort it lol it’s dock then voice files hope so come on cha get it all out .hailhail
Would it be too much to hope for that CW has a recording of CO saying as much ?
2.That is despite the fact that following the BBC’s transmission of a television programme, that we understand prompted your investigation, you and Mr Campbell Ogilvie attended a private dinner with our client and Ali Russell during which matters relating to Rangers FC were discussed including the financial difficulties being experienced by the Club. We are instructed that during the dinner you told Mr Whyte he had been open with the SFA and you expressed your appreciation of that openness telling our client that the SFA was there to help. In respect of Mr Whyte’s director disqualification, you indicated to Mr Whyte that the issue would not prevent our client from remaining involved with Rangers FC. Our client specifically recalls that you indicated to him that he should not worry about his previous disqualification as a director.
@mcfc
Well if wee craigie doesn’t have a recording I’m sure Stockbridge will have the video 🙂
@eco – Stockbridge – what a knob – if he’d kept quiet on the video he could have disclaimed all knowledge. Instead it is probably more damaging to him than to Murray – c’est la guerre.
@MCFC Hi mate, I agree Stockbridge is a wee gnaff and I am surprised malky didnt give him the malky for that snidey behaviour…
— However after hearing malky’s excuse he should have known his limits too with his medical issue. Waiting 2 hrs being plied with drinkies is a lame one for me, but for your colleague to film you and expose the footage to damage your rep, well that is pathetic..
@mcfc
Have a look at my dates up above re Murray who didn’t become rangers Plc chairman until 14 December but Stockbridge shot the video in September supposedly because he was worried about Malcolm’s socialising.
Storing-up evidence is a polite way of putting it IMO. However, Stockbridge had a duty to AIM and investors – why did he agree to serve with what he appears to believe was an out-of-control alcoholic chairman of a public company.
Doesn’t look good for Stockbridge I’m afraid never mind his choice of dinner escort – who appears to feel an overwhelming rush of blood to the head when she sees a tipsy guy and wants to batter them to bits. Stockbridge appears to have become involved with strange bedfellows since hitting the big time.
That blazer, tie and brown brogues nipping at your feet certainly seems to inflame the ultimately deadly Rangeritis which has already proven a terminal disease for some English spivs.
@eco – the timing is key – thanks for pointing that out – get something on the guy before he’s involved and knows anyone is looking or cares – then bring him in to use his city contacts and “Rangers Man” value – expect him to follow the script – and if he doesn’t. Classy bunch of guys !
We assume you understand that we have options on your time,
And we’ll ditch you in the harbour if we must:
But if it all works out nicely,
You’ll get the bonus you deserve
From doctors we trust.
Brian Eno, The Fat Lady of Limbourg
@Eco read back on that cheers mate, either way I agree Stockbridge should be a goner…
@mcfc.
The time frame clearly proves CO is in conflict, and SR guilty of aiding and abetting, even possibly conspirational in it.
The programme was aired on the 20th Oct, and Ali Russell left Rangers in the last week of Feb.
The bit I do like though, and it is a wild guess, is “Private” dinner.
Now what is a “Private” dinner.?
Does it merely relate to, not work, unrelated, or does it mean Private, as in not a hotel, restaurant, or even Hampden, as too “Public”.
That would leave Craigy’s secluded highland retreat then!
Probably awash with hidden cams and secreted recording equipment…..I really hope so!
Not to keen on seeing the “Lavcam” though. Yurghhhhh!
@barca – I really hope so – I look forward to the urinal scene where SR and CO conclude that he may be a nasty wee bastard but he’s the only nasty wee bastard that we can deal with to keep Rangers in the SPL – priceless.
@Barca, MCFC Hopefully Craigie has strong evidence to bring the whole SFA house of cards down..SR & CO are definitely jokers and Charlotte is proving to be a wee diamond… What twist is coming next..
— I am also a wee bit surprised certain factions have not tried to shut Charlotte up.. Maybe the game’s a bogey..!!
@barcabuster
I certainly feel that Charlotte is dancing the dance of the who knows how many veils for us. I know some are panting for the final one to drop immediately – but she’s a professional at tease and I like her style and am just appreciating the various veils slowly being cast aside 🙂
And just imagine what it’s doing to those at Hampden 🙂
Their heads will be spinning trying to remember what they said. And I think back to the pictures that were posted by her – could there be others with some of the hitherto silent and anonymous men well and truly in the frame.
Who`ll represent the SFA on Sunday? We won`t hear the crowd for the shredders.
I see Scrat (DNiall) is still hunting for that darn acorn.
@pp
Has no one told CO that shedding paper doesn’t destroy the email originals, or the voice recordings, or the video clips. Poor demented soul must be up to his knees in paper dust by now. What he needs is Lulzsec – but I don’t think that hackers exist in the century he chooses to inhabit.
@mcfc
The Bampot is mightier than the(ir) (s)word.
@pp
The Rangers affair will go down in history as a seminal triumph for bampots against a corrupt establishment and supine MSM. Without this blog and a few others, so much would have gone unnoticed, uncommented and unchallenged.
This can only be a force for good that hopefully will make vile cover-ups such as Hillsborough almost impossible in future.Vive Les Bampot ! ! !
and breathe 🙂
” Niall NO again, a zillion in the bank would have no effect on EBTs, .”
I am sorry Jim but this is obviously a false claim, the zillion in the bank would have one effect, they could have afforded the players without the EBTs, and if they could afford them then the EBts provided no advantage.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
@Niall
If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Chill – look up Desiderata read the rest
Paul,
I am exceptionally chilled and asked one simple question, the responses to date consist mainly of abuse, not cool my friend, not cool.
@Paul McG
Indeed I reckon I have seen brain-dead corpses in the mortuary less ‘chill’ than ‘Confused of Ibrox’.
@ Eco
In ‘On War’ Von Clausewitz postulates that the resources committed to achieve one’s aims should be commensurate with the gains that one perceives will be attained.
I have no idea what Niall believes is being achieved by consistently posting to others who have informed him and I do actually agree in a less than polite fashion, that they have no intention of engaging him in any badinage
Paul McG,
I like your analytical brain, can you use it to explain to me why the posters who have no intention engaging with me, comment about the contents of my post and insult my flawless character to third parties ?
What is going on there do you think, I have checked Desiderata and it redirected me back to you.
In his later years Shelby Foote – Noted American Historian – was interviewed, one of the last few occasions before he died. He admitted to have become a recluse in his later years as he found entertaining incredibly boring. The reason for this was he concluded that all people become incredibly boring as they get older, since they appear to only want to talk about the things which interest them.
Influencing the opinions of others is usually better achieved with an engaging argument – combative and adversarial styles of debate usually do little to engender support of one’s position.
Whilst I admire your one man rear guard action – the story of Bruce and the spider was probably made up.
Carly Simon’s ‘coming around again’ springs to mind (Itsby bitsy spider version)
I prefer WC Fields (and I paraphrase) – if at first you don’t succeed then give up – there’s no point being a damned fool about it
” Influencing the opinions of others is usually better achieved with an engaging argument – combative and adversarial styles of debate usually do little to engender support of one’s position.”
Dearest Paul, I am not a great fan of excessive quote mining, it has a faint scent of over eager pretense to it, and it rarely hides the bias it attempts to disguise, misplaced it is more a test of memory than intellect.
If you can read, then you can read my polemic style is a response to bigotry, and yet you advise appeasement and conciliation, in order to achieve this I would have to agree with every nuance uttered.
You seem almost oblivious to the nauseating nit picking that can cause uproar on this blog, the slightest ambiguity is ravaged with gusto, this is a carnivores den and I am no Danny Bhoy.
In the words of an old Irishman: “When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend.”
Go well.
Niall Walker
May 22, 2013 at 11:32 am
badger,
The point I am trying to make is the EBT itself is not an advantage, and an illegal EBT is in itself not an unfair advantage.
Do you agree ?
———————————————————————————————–
How could I possibly agree to that?
That must be the most idiotic reasoning I have ever heard on this issue.
Tax dodging allowed them to attract players they otherwise could not afford and some would not have come had they known they were getting an illegal EBT. An example of this is Jean Alain Boumsong who said he wouldn’t have come had he knew this. He was sold for £8million, money that was used to buy more players on more EBTs. How in the hell could you say that is not an advantage?
@deNiall – give it a rest mate – you’re just making an arse of yourself and convincing no-one – even those that bother to read your stuff these days – in fact – I think even @arse would have difficulty agreeing with your magic mushroom logic. It’s time to take the donkey ears off, get some fresh air and join the real world.
@MCFC Your right, He-Haw, He-Haw, He-hawtta get real imo.. 🙂
@JB
One of your best sir 🙂
@mcfc
Personally I would recommend a holiday in the east Neuk of Fife and I know a few good private nursing establishments there that have the necessary facilities to aid recovery and a return to the real world 🙂
ecojon,
Your intimate knowledge of nursing homes comes as no surprise.
mcfc,
give us an answer mate to my question, I didn’t ask for a life coach.
@deNiall
Your question’s irrelevant, your logic’s irreducible, your attitude’s irascible and your answer’s:No I do not. Now move on with your life.
mcfc,
My question was hypothetical and your irascible answer remains unsupported by logic.
@deNiall – if you say so, now put down the donkey ears . .. . . .
badger, in my hypothetical scenario, Rangers had a 100 million and could afford the players, I did state this clearly.
@scrat
100 million? IOUbrox Charlie’s Decatur casino would be open for business.
@Niall
To me earlier – “Please don’t self proclaim victories”.
To ecojon, a short while later – “You ignore me because when you do not, you lose…
Make your mind up please, Niall.
@charliedon – the delusion and confusion is obviously growing – he’s been monitoring football boards for 18 months apparently. I think his bosses made a big mistake in thinking he was up to handling the loon balls, such as myself, on here 🙂
ecojon,
” I think his bosses made a big mistake in thinking he was up to handling the loon balls, such as myself, on here ”
I have obviously handled you pretty good, enough to warrant your undivided attention while you ignore me….lolol.
” the delusion and confusion is obviously growing ”
You said it Walter, get the pipe out.
@Niall Walker
Oh dear,looks like I made a mistake in saying you weren’t funny.
That WAS a joke when you said you handled Eco pretty WELL*, wasn’t it? No! You were serious? I feel it incumbent on me to inform you Niall that it will be “a cold day in hell” ( a nice little cliche there, just for you) before you manage to do that.
* my correction there btw.I find it impossible to condone poor grammar by repeating it I’m afraid.
Dorothy,
I am sure eco welcomes your wee giddy up, but he has just ran up the yellow brick road to get away from little old me.
Niall while we’re on the subject of ebts what do you make of the souness 1 even though he had no tie to club why did he get 1 ????
mick,
Haven’t a clue mate, EBTs is a tax loophole that should have been closed long before now, along with all the rest of the tax avoidance schemes. What did politicians expect capitalists to do when they globalized their capital, its not rocket science to work out they would redirect most of their profits to a company in a country with the lowest tax liabilities.If the profit is earned in this country then it should be paid to this country.
@Niall couldn’t agree with you more…
— I did find it strange on this site when some of the rangers bloggers said similar things about people knowing how to play the system to avoid their UK taxes but happy to take help from the NHS etc and yet these fans rejoice the big tax case decision on a defunct rangers.. This really only has an effect on others using similar EBTs where presumably a guilty verdict (against defunct rangers) would help HMRC in their fight against such loophole usage.. Thoughts?
Who could possibly give my post a thumbs down, shame on you ecojon, and you being a socialist and all.
lol
Niall.
I think the point mick was trying to make was that this was an employee benefit trust and Mr Souness was not an emloyee. Some people have even claimed [entirely erroneously I’m sure] that Mr Souness was being rewarded for facillitating transfers in rangers favour.
I can employ someone for one day, one hour….what is the problem ?
Niall.
Not sure I get your point. Can you expand ?
Souness could have been an employee, he could have been employed for a day, week or month, not defending him, Rangers or EBTs just giving a plausible reason for him getting the loan as an employee.
Souness could have been an employee, he could have been employed for a day, week or month, not defending him, Rangers or EBTs just giving a plausible reason for him getting the loan as an employee.’
Niall.
I’m not attacking Souness either. Problem is [ re. mick’s point ] that Souness . at the time he received the £30k, was not an employee of rangers.
He left rangers in 1991 and received the ebt 2001 – ten years later. Don’t you find that just a little odd ?
@Niall
To me earlier – “Please don’t self proclaim victories”.
To ecojon, a short while later – “You ignore me because when you do not, you lose…
So, is it ok to self proclaim victories or not? Make your mind up please, Niall.
Sorry, I inadvertently double posted this.
charlie,
You got too excited at barca’s detective work.
Nope. Haven’t had time to read barca’s detective work yet.
@Niall
And now to your question.
“Please don’t self proclaim victories, and await your answer to my question, if Rangers had 100 million in the babk can we say the EBTs provided them with an advantage ? Yes or No ?”
Well, yes. If MORE money is made available to the club’s resources for the playing staff by avoiding tax by the use of a dodgy tax scheme then that is an advantage. It is completely irrelevant if they have other money on top of that. That really is a simple concept anyone can easily understand.
This current argument is also just a very slight variant of your theme in the previous blog.
charlie,
How can having the funds regardless of EBTs be irrelevant, if the advantage in the EBT is to supply the funds.
This is a simple concept and I am shocked neither you nor anyone on here can understand it, how far does cognitive bias go ?
Niall,
“An advantage is a condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position, if Ranger had a zillion in the bank then they could have achieved the same condition without the EBT, ergo the EBT is in of itself of no advantage.”
To illustrate the nonsense inherent in your argument, let’s for the moment apply your logic to another scenario. Imagine that a student has been caught cheating and is brought before the University Disciplinary Committee. He argues that cheating in itself conferred no advantage because if he had a brain then he could have passed the exam without cheating ergo cheating “is in of itself no advantage”. The panel dismiss the student’s argument and punish the student because a) he did cheat b) cheating in itself is wrong c) cheating is unfair on students who pass an exam without cheating d) if clever students were allowed to cheat with impunity then that would be discriminatory e) passing an exam through proper means is not an argument that cheating confers no advantage f) having a brain is not proof that clever students would not cheat (they do).
If a student could have achieved the same result without cheating, as many do, then that does not excuse cheating, otherwise by extension every duplicitous act could be absolved because the same result could arguably have been achieved by other, acceptable, means. See the fault in your “argument”?
@ JohnBhoy
Loved your explanation – sadly it will be lost on ‘Confused of Ibrox’.
You two should get a room, its really quite hilarious.
Eco, it’s like taking candy from a baby. At the risk of mixing metaphors – he does like cliches after all – he’s full of bluster, punctuated by hot air and diahorrea at both ends in equal profusion; or, as one of my old professors would put it: “he’s all style and no football”.
As one wit put it, referring to someone else’s attempt at “theory”: “his argument is so bad it does not even merit the accolade of being wrong”.
Johnbhoy,
This baby just squashed your analogy without being winded, and not all psychiatrists are professors.
Afternoon John, I see we are back to using false analogies, this one is easily dismissed.
” To illustrate the nonsense inherent in your argument, let’s for the moment apply your logic to another scenario. Imagine that a student has been caught cheating and is brought before the University Disciplinary Committee. He argues that cheating in itself conferred no advantage because if he had a brain then he could have passed the exam without cheating ergo cheating “is in of itself no advantage”.”
The student cannot prove his cheating preferred no advantage, in my scenario Rangers can prove EBTs preferred no advantage, they had the 100 million as evidence, the student has no such evidence.
Its very simple the EBTs only become an advantage to buying players if Rangers could not afford to buy the payers, if they have 100 million in the bank then its simply illogical to say they could not afford the players.
Do you see where you went wrong ?
John,
p.s.
Having a brain is not evidence one can pass an exam or else we would have no exams, having money when some say you have no money is evidence they are wrong.
This is a cognitive bias test, and you all passed the exam with flying colors.
Charlottes tweeting about blue pitch lol
Richard Barrington?
Korissa Capital?
Any connection to CW?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/142959769/Sevco-Finance
@Ray – Interesting stuff – but I think Charlotte deserves a name check – https://twitter.com/CharlotteFakes
Did Paul not mention Korissa the other day – Obviously nothing unusual about the company – just your usual run of the mill Panamanian company which is probably well-known to all the unidentified offshore owners of sevco in whatever variation or guise.
Sevco 5088 really is the newco this latest doco confirms it green done a switcheroo and stole it hes well in soapy bubble am. 1 following right ?
😀 HH!
@mick
Left right, left right, left right
Keep right on to the end of the road Charlotte
And we might even let you keep the last veil 🙂
@Mick.
In simplified terms, I think you are bang on the money.
If I remember right. D&P struck a deal with 5088 providing proof of funds.
The deal, was the £8.5m price for purchase via successful CVA, or the £5.5m liquidation purchase.
This was the deal D&P had granted exclusivity on.
Pingback: Rangers Tax Appeal May Be Heard On 19th July 2013 | Random Thoughts Re Scots Law by Paul McConville
Very interesting nugget in that Blue Pitch Holdings the biggest original consortium investor in TRFCL or sevco 5088 it would actually appear – appears to be based in the Cayman Islands.
Also the letters dated 23 May 2012 have Chico’s scrawl as signature. The other thing is that all this appears not just to hinge on a successful CVA but on just the acquisition of the assets.
This truly is creating a lot of probs if P&M are going to report saying ‘Nothing to see here, just move along’ in respect of Green and Whyte. And it again focuses real attention on whether D&P ever gave permission for the sale of assets to be switched from sevco 5088 to sevco scotland. And as part of that what legal authority did they have to do so.
I started off being very suspicious of Charlotte in just about every way and although I don’t know who she is fronting for I am almost certain that a helluva lot of the documentation she is providing is 100% genuine.
Of course she won’t be providing info detrimental to her ‘position’ so that has to be taken into account when trying to form an objective and balanced view. But hey the MSM have never even attempted that stance in the vast majority of their reporting or deflection on the whole issue from Day 1.
@eco – P&M must be laughing all the way to the bank – every time they finalize a draft, dear Charlotte introduces another spanner in the works and they have to re-write. Just hope they had the sense to get cash up front.
@eco – so what’s Charlotte’s game.
Maybe to delay the commission report until the EGM by drip feeding info that must be accounted for in the report – in which case will they stiff MM at the EGM and will the new directors be appointed.
Or maybe she is delaying to deny the SFA time to be creative over TRFC’s membership for next season.
Or maybe, her aim is to force a deal with CW before the juiciest bits are revealed – some people already know exactly what is coming – the question is who will blink first.
So Blue Pitch Holdings is registered in the Cayman Islands. That is no surprise – the US govt calls this the money laundering capital of the world. Murky and sordid!
@Barca
@Jimbhoy.
Just to put a new angle on proceedings. Did you notice that newtz asked some questions of the SFA. ?
I missed that I guess, what was asked and did he get any response other than a fob off?
@Jimbhoy.
When he asked the question……He asked the great deflector. Directly!
@Jinbhoy
may 21 9.57.
It doesn’t take a great stretch of the imagination from being a defender of Sevco, to being a defender of the corrupt SFA. Same difference.
Monti,
On your question about JD, if I recall he went to prison for pedophilia, and resigned as Chairman for this reason, but don’t quote me I didn’t know him intimately in any sense of the word, he was my families lawyer for years.
He was captain of a Boys Brigade company and molested some of the kids. Not a nice fellow.