Mr Green, who seemed unusually quiet for a couple of days, but was no doubt involved meeting fund managers and investors for his share issue and compiling the Share Prospectus which he told Rangers fans would be out by the middle of November, has spoken out on the official Rangers website about the Big Tax Case outcome.
You can find the whole piece here.
As the article is written on the official site by Lindsay Herron it is safe to assume, I suggest, that the commentary and narrative around Mr Green’s quotes can also be taken as the “Rangers position”.
My comments on parts of the piece are in bold below the relevant section. It is fair to say that I do not think Mr Green is correct in much of what he had to say (although I am sure that would not concern him one iota).
———————————————————
CHARLES GREEN has expressed his anger and dismay at the timing of the verdict of the First Tier Tax Tribunal as it has massively affected the current status of Rangers.
Despite a concerted campaign from certain quarters, which was often hateful, that decided that Rangers were guilty of “cheating” it has been proved that is not the case.
It is ironic that, after various statements, including one last week, where Mr Green pointed out, quite correctly, that the Big Tax Case related to “oldco” and therefore had no effect on “newco”, the position is that the verdict, no, the timing of the verdict, has had a massive effect on the current state of Rangers. Helpfully Mr Herron goes on to tell us what these effects are.
I wonder where the “hateful” campaigns Mr Herron refers to came from. Will he enlighten us? After all, I am sure many vocal Rangers fans would be delighted to see the club “take on” the culprits blamed for this “hateful” campaign. Mr Green has been very astute so far in cultivating the approval of his customer base. What positives he would gain by “going on the attack”!
We shall see if that possibility is followed through.
The most important aspect of it all, however, is that had this verdict been delivered in May or June then Rangers would:
- Still be a member of the SPL
- Have retained all of their players
- Have received their £2.5million prize money
- Not be hamstrung by a player registration embargo
It is always helpful when an argument is stated in clear terms. Mr Herron does not suggest that these outcomes were possible. Instead, if the case had been decided in May/June, then they “would” have happened.
I respectfully disagree, for reasons I will detail below.
It should be noted, in fairness to Mr Green, that the quotes from him in the piece only back up one of Mr Heron’s assertions. How likely is it though that a reporter, especially one as experienced and skilful as Mr Herron, employed by the club would misquote their own Chief Executive! Not much, I would suggest.
For Charles Green has revealed that a Company Voluntary Agreement to come out of administration would have been successful and the horrors of the summer would have been avoided.
Ironically one of the effects of the “horrors of the summer” was that Mr Green’s group was able to buy the “assets of the company, including its history and trophies” for £5.5 million, and a few months later can proudly boast that they are worth £80 million! The “horrors of the summer” and the spring before them were instrumental in Mr Green achieving his position as Chief Executive? It is an ill wind…and every cloud has a silver lining and other old sayings come to mind.
And after all the coverage, one would have hoped that at least within Rangers they would recall that CVA stands for Company Voluntary Arrangement, not Agreement!
Speaking exclusively to RangersTV he said: “The thing that turned many people against Rangers, quite wrongly in my opinion, was the spectre of EBTs and to have that case awarded in favour of Murray Group has been a substantial step.
How does he mean that people were “turned against” Rangers? Does Mr Green mean potential buyers? If so, he should be grateful to HMRC and to the Tribunal for its long deliberations. In the summer, if a Rangers entity was up for sale, with little or no Big Tax Case liability around it, then it is hard to imagine that a knockdown bid of £5.5 million would have been successful. Maybe the Green consortium would have had to pay closer to the £80 million he now says the assets are worth, and in that alternative scenario, it is possible that every creditor might have been paid in full!
“I think the question is when something was tried in January why did it take 11 months to get an opinion out there?
Mr Green has close contact, I am sure, with his expert legal advisers, both at Field Fisher Waterhouse in England and Biggart Baillie in Scotland. Maybe he could ask someone from the tax or court departments of those firms how a case which involved nineteen days of evidence and ten days of deliberations, and resulted in a 145 page decision, took 11 months to be determined.
Or is Mr Green suggesting some deeper reason for the delay? Is he hinting that, in some way, there were people who had an interest in delaying the decision to harm Rangers Football club? Surely not.
“When you look at the numbers now, Ticketus would have been the single biggest creditor and they were inclined to support the CVA so things could have been substantially different.
And here comes the re-writing of history.
In the Rangers CVA Proposal the unsecured creditors were made up as follows:-
| 5.24 A summary of the non preferential creditors is set out below:
Creditor |
Claim (£) |
| Trade & Expense Creditors | 5,544,508 |
| Ticketus LLP & Ticketus 2 LLP (―Ticketus‖) (amount of claim to be confirmed) | 26,711,857 |
| HM Revenue & Customs – Excluding EBT Case and the Discounted Option Scheme Case | 18,324,285.42 |
| HM Revenue & Customs – Discounted Option Scheme Case | 3,052,481.67 |
| HM Revenue & Customs – the EBT Case | TBC |
| Supporter Debenture Holders | TBC |
| Football Related Creditors | 1,063,082 |
| Employees | TBC |
| Total | TBC |
Those figures show that the total non-HMRC creditors added up to £33,319,447.
The total HMRC debt, excluding any liability from the Big Tax Case, totalled £21,376,767.09.
Therefore, if all of the creditors except HMRC approved the CVA, and only HMRC voted against, then the CVA would have been “approved”, but not by the 75% of creditors by value to have it succeed. I make it that 60.9% would have been in favour – the CVA would have failed.
In addition, Ticketus were later rejected as creditors by Duff & Phelps. What an exciting legal imbroglio would have occurred if the CVA had been approved thanks to the vote of a creditor who was then declared by the administrators not to be a creditor! That is a hypothetical too far, even for me, just now.
So, all in all, things “could” have been different, but in all likelihood, unless HMRC had changed its mind, it would not have been different.
“What we shouldn’t start getting carried away with is that this club would still have gone into administration. I don’t think there is any chance that this wouldn’t have happened.
I don’t want to go back over the old argument of whether or not the club “died”, or the company failed or what. However, Mr Green’s comment about the CLUB going into administration has been put in there, I am sure, just to entertain those who pay close attention to his words. After all, it was in fact the company which owned the assets of the club which went into administration, rather than the club – is that not the received wisdom now?
“However, when the verdict came out would have changed things dramatically but my job now is to take the club forward.
Mr Green puts things rather strongly when he says that an earlier decision “would” have changed things dramatically. A decision pre-administration in February would not have made a difference a, by that stage, Mr Whyte’s Rangers had accumulated what was stated in the CVA proposal as over £18 million of debt to HMRC, and this was not payable by Rangers, especially after Mr Jelavic was sold, and the money spent on keeping Rangers afloat.
Of course a decision in February who the case ending in January would have been impossible. A decision pre CVA proposal would not have made much difference either.
“If a CVA had gone through we would still be playing in the SPL and perhaps even be playing in Europe.
Well. As I have pointed out, the CVA would not have worked.
If it had, and if Rangers had remained in the SPL, then they would not have been eligible to play in Europe as they did not have the required audited accounts. Mr Whyte’s Rangers never issued such accounts and the administrators did not do so either. Therefore, unless UEFA broke its own rules, especially at a time when it was emphasising Financial Fair Play, Rangers would not have been playing in Europe this season.
I leave it to football experts to comment on whether Rangers would still have been in European competition as we reach the end of November.
“We said from day one that the CVA was our preferred route. It does get you really annoyed to think that all of this hate and all the problems that the fans have had to endure were for no real reason.
No Mr Green. The CVA would have failed anyway. Therefore speculating about all the “hate” the fans had to endure for the CVA’s failure seems a bit odd to be frank. And I suspect that it was the whole financial mess which might have caused people to express disapproval of Rangers. If the CVA had been accepted, does Mr Green think that we would have been able to abolish segregation of fans in Scottish football, as all would have been peace and harmony?
The CVA was clearly the preferred route too, because the deal was that for £8.5 million the Green consortium would take over the existing club. However, the £8.5 million was to be a loan, secured over the assets. Therefore, in a CVA, the Green consortium would be “buying” the whole organisation for a purchase price of zero, and would have received payment of interest on the money lent to the company! Brilliant!
As far as the other effects which Mr Green considers would not have happened if the CVA was accepted – that Rangers would have stayed in the SPL, that it would have retained its players, that it would have received £2.5 million prize money and that there would have been no player registration embargo…where does one begin?
In all likelihood the team would still have been playing in the SPL, so one up to Mr Green.
As regards the players, I am confused. Did Mr Green not proclaim that all the players registrations remained with the club and that under TUPE they were now employed by his company? Was it not the case that he was going to fight the cases of all the players who “walked away” through football’s ruling bodies and ultimately through the courts? Was it not the case that Mr Green proclaimed that all the legal opinion he had seen confirmed what a greater case newco Rangers had? I must have been mistaking him for a different Mr Green.
The SPL prize money was voluntarily surrendered by Mr Green as part of the negotiating process to get an SFA membership. It was clearly felt that, having spent £5.5 million to buy all of the assets of Rangers, but none of the debts, and the assets to include rights to receive over £3.3 million of money due to oldco, Mr Green had some leeway regarding the prize money, and he clearly agreed. To moan about not retaining something he gave up, having acquired it in such unbalanced terms, seems ungrateful. It is a bit like a person finding a winning lottery ticket, and complaining that the jackpot was down that week. Look at the big picture, man!
As for the player registration issue, this was a penalty imposed for:-
- failing to disclose that Mr Whyte was a former disqualified director,
- entering into administration,
- failing to comply with the rules of the PLUS Stock Exchange by failing to disclose to PLUS Stock Exchange the disqualification of Craig Whyte;
- failing to lodge Annual Accounts by 31st December 2011;
- failing to hold an Annual General Meeting by 1st January 2012;
- the non-payment to HMRC of PAYE tax payments and National Insurance Contributions for employees of Rangers FC and VAT; and
- failing to pay to Dunfermline AFC by 21st February 2012, monies due to them for the Scottish Premier League match played on 11th February 2012.
“For me as CEO of Rangers … I have to focus on the future and not on the past. We are where we are. We have said in our presentations and through the business plan that we will do what we said we would do – and what Ally said he would do – and that’s get the team out on the park week in week out and get promotion and work our way to the top division – whatever that top division is called.”
If Mr Green has got “presentations and a business plan” then perhaps the prospectus, originally, base on Mt Green’s own words, due by mid-November, might be winging its way to the prospective investors.
After all, it is easy to do the flowery prose but harder to make a convincing financial case on the figures. For all the undoubted excitement in the City, as Mr Green has told us, at the end of the day these fund managers invest in companies to make money. However I have no doubt that the figures he will produce to the City and to the individual shareholders will match Mr Green’s rhetoric, and indeed even surpass it.
Finally, one wonders if his anti-SPL stance is waning. He comments that the goal is to get to the top division, whatever it is called. Does that mean that if he and the SPL are still there which Rangers get promotion to the top league, he will accept that elevation, despite the vocal protests of the fans?
Posted by Paul McConville
Random Thoughts Re Scots Law by Paul McConville 
I see some people asking questions abouts dates and statements made by Duff and Phelps lawyers on those dates with particular reference to the 31st of October of this year in the court of session, any ideas ?
@ alex
I’m having great difficulty working out what you are saying – any chance of putting it in simple straight-forward language 🙂
tink he’s asking if Sevco is still F**KED
and in simple terms ~~~~~ YES!!
D&P’s lawyer told Lord Hodge that they do not know when the FTT decision will be issued. ???
@ Alex
Ah right I now understand. I remember the hearing but I’m afraid I don’t have photographic memory recall so wonder if you could provide me with a citation for the words spoken by the D&P lawyer so I know exactly what was said.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fscotslawthoughts.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F10%2F31%2Fthe-tweeted-report-by-mdkster-on-this-mornings-rangers-hearing%2F&ei=68-3UM-zBqSf0QXyvYHgDg&usg=AFQjCNGW4OE98rf6I0Qy2vimMHQA2CI59Q&sig2=QnGyfWHWlQDQCBPiVfuw6A
@ Alex
OK so I assume the bit that you refer to is: ‘The FTT proceedings ended in January. D&P’s lawyer told Lord Hodge that they do not know when the FTT decision will be issued.’
I assume that you are inferring that the QC concerned was either simply wrong or had been misled by D&P as I further assume that you are not accusing the QC of deliberately lying.
I think it would be helpful to look at the background to the report from the court – it came from a tweeter and I have no idea what their capabilities are like or what professional experience they have in law or journalism. So there is a possibility they were mistaken and without an alternative source that remains a possibility.
However, let’s assume the tweeter got it right on 31 October 2012 at the Court of Session. I actually commented on the tweet at the time and speculated whether the D&P QC had been thrown in at the last minute as it appeared preparation might have been better.
However, to fully investigate your concerns you need to establish: When exactly did D&P receive a copy of the FTTT Decision? If it was prior to 31 October was the QC representing D&P that day apprised of this prior to appearing in court on behalf of his client? If D&P received the FTTT report prior to 31 October what advantage would they gain by not advising the Court of this fact?
The release date of the Decision to the parties was 29 October – I don’t know when D&P got it – do you? I can’t see how they would get it before the parties because as far as I know they were not involved in the FTTT.
But even if they did receive it on 29 October this doesn’t prove that the QC acting for them 2 days later on a totally different matter would have known the FTTT Decision had been issued and we are still left with the issue of what possible effect would that have on the legal debate on 31 October.
It could well have been that D&Ps reply was merely in response to Lord Hodge being nosy and asking if the knew whether the FTTT Decision was in yet as he may well have picked-up a rumour that it had been issued a couple of days earlier.
If the FTTT Decision could possibly have affected the case he was dealing with then he would have adjouned until he had a copy of the Decision. I really can’t see what you hope to achieve as I can’t see any substance there. But if I’m not seeing something then pls get back to me.
http://sport.stv.tv/football/203241-rangers-tax-case-and-the-result-of-the-cva-your-questions-answered/
The victory by Rangers oldco in the “big tax case” has led to speculation about whether an earlier decision could have saved the company from going out of business.
——————————————————————————————–
Excellent read Paul and the STV link above is a surprisingly well-written piece of accurate and objective journalism. Not surprisingly, given the woeful reporting of STV on the Rangers story,
It appears to have been commissioned from an outside news organisation although perhaps that was merely designed to protect STV staff. Whatever the reason I doubt if STV had the personnel to construct such a balanced piece of journalism.
The argument about whether HMRC could have blocked the CVA had they lost the BTC by June is not only resolved by the arithmetic. To quote the following from the “200%” website:
“Would Rangers’ CVA have succeeded if the FTT decision had pre-dated it?
No. I was part-way through an arithmetical calculation to determine whether the £21.4m HMRC were owed by the old Rangers company would have constituted 25% of the entire creditors’ vote – i.e. enough to block the CVA’s passage – when I happened on this quote from Duff & Phelps’ 10th July report to creditors:
“Any CVA proposal requires the support of 75% or more of creditors (by value) who vote…The size of HMRC‟s vote, even excluding those liabilities arising from the Tier 1 Tax Tribunal provided HMRC with an effective right of veto in the event that they did not wish to support the CVA.”
So when former Rangers director and “Borders-based financial high-flyer” Paul Murray told the Daily Record newspaper’s Keith Jackson last Wednesday that “had HMRC’s £75m claim not been there, hanging over the club, then they would not have been able to block the CVA,” he was, pardon the legalese, talking bollocks.”
Keep up the good work, as per.
@Mark Murphy
Sadly the Daily Record won’t correct its error and as a result will lose even more sales. But the real question for that failing newspaper is why the Rangers story was being handled by sports journalists.
Does the DR no longer have investigative journalists or anyone on staff who is able to understand complex financial and legal stories. Going from the stories they have published and even more so the ones they have buried, it would appear the answer is NO.
And they wonder why people turn to the internet for informed coverage and don’t even use the once-proud Record for wrapping fish suppers anymore.
Charlie’s back and he’s having a party. Wants his newly formed tribute act The Rangers to celebrate the original band of brethren’s 140th birthday. A card display is one of the delights on show. Here are some of the self-congratulatory gems suggested by his colouring-in department:
– “Tax DodGERS!”
– “Catholic-Free Zone for 100 Years!”
– “Riots R Us!”
– “We Love People Who Kill People – We Love the Army!”
– “Buy Yer Ain F*****Guns!”
– “We Love To Rob Hospitals and Schools of Much Needed Money!”
– “We are the Anti-Establishment Establishment Club!”
– “We Know Where You Live!”
– “We Were Liquidated!”
– “We Are a Tribute Act!”
– “We Don’t Have A History!”
– “Ally Loved Murray!”
– “Murray Sold the Jerseys!
– “We Will Never Forgive Murray!”
– “Ally Loved Whyte!”
– “Whyte Sold the Jerseys!”
– “We will Never Forgive Whyte!”
– “We Know Where You Live!”
– “Duff and Phelps Spent The Wee Creditors Money!”
– “Duff and Phelps Cannae Spell Gratuitous Alienation!”
– “Ticketus R Us!”
– “Ally Loves Charlie!”
– “Charlie is Our Darling!”
– “We Threatened Charlie’s Life!”
– “Charlie is Staying Until He Goes!”
– “We Are Out of Europe for Years!”
– “We Are in the Third Division!”
– “Ally has got us Knocked Out of Every Cup Competition We’ve Entered!”
– “Ally is a Legend!”
– “Ally Wants Us To Know Who You Are!”
– “We Know how to InTIMidate!”
– “Charlie’s The Joker – He Talks In Riddles!”
– “Murray is Blue and Wants Revenge – He’s One of Us!”
– “We Know Where You Live!”
– “We Owed Lots of Wee People Money!”
– “We Told Them To F*** Off and Live in the Real World!”
– “We have No External Debt!”
– “Hail Murray The Tax-DodGER!”
– “Whyte’s Was a Tax-Dodger Tae But He Wisnae As Clever As Murray!”
– “Ally Got Us Kicked Oot of Europe And F****** Up Craigie’s Plans!”
– “Murray Shat Himself And Did A Runner!”
– “Murray’s Delay Cost us a CVA!”
– “We Have Never Won The Big Cup!”
– “Ally Wants Us To Buy Shares!”
– “Ally Is A Shareholder!”
– “We Are Sheep and Charlie is Our Shepherd!”
– “Panel Members are Low-Life Scum Whose Names We Need to Dissem-, Dissemin-, Let Oot, Unless They are on The BTC, in Which Case They are Learned Gentlemen of the Highest Pedigree [Except for The Wee Daft Lassie who Voted Against Us]”
– “Let’s Kid On That We Enjoy This Shite!”
– “BDO Are Coming for Us!”
– “Nimmo Hates Zombies!”
– “Whit If we Don’t Get Promotion?!”
– “Is It True – Are We Skint?!”
– “Who The Hell Owns Us?!”
– “Where The F*** Is That Prospectus!”
– “What’s A Prospectus?!”
– “Anybody Here Got a Clue Whit’s Happening?!”
– “Charlie, Where Are You Going?!”
– “Why Do We Never Ask Any Questions?!”
– “We Know Where You Live!”
@ JohnBhoy
As usual top humour 🙂
What about adding:
Sports Direct R Us
Ally Loves Murray Again
“Learned Gentlemen of the Highest Pedigree”
AND “Sartorial Elegance” JB,don’t forget.
newco shall take the consequences of the oldco to obtain sfa licence.
Another great rebuttal, Paul. I’m glad some good people remain out there helping keep an eye out for the truth.
Just a wee niggle, where you task the perps for not getting CVA right:
“every could has a silver lining and other old sayings come to mind.
And after all the coverage, one would have hopped that at least within Rangers they would recall that CVA stands for Company Voluntary Arrangement, not Agreement!”
CLOUD and HOPED, would make that comment much more telling!
Thanks!
As ever an enlightening read Paul. I do wonder where the rational sevco fan sits with this. Do they really fall for this tripe or is it still a case that they need to batten down the hatches and hope for the best whilst the chuckie-fuelled storm rages overhead. It truly baffles me
I’m beginning to have my suspicions about this chap Green. Is he really on the level?
@ Auldheid
Ah think the level’s fine it’s jist that Green has escaped and is in his ane wee bubble of hot air which bounces aboot all over the place.
He is, to a degree 🙂
@ redetin
Is that Celsius or Cenko?
I don’t think it is either of these Ecojon – I think it is Absolute..
@ The silver fhox
R U saying vodka has a lower boiling point? Or should that be freezing point?
depends if you can afford the electirickery bill?
Auldhied–‘on the level’ whatever could you mean.? Sounds like secret code or something. Seriously though, I think Chico Verde is in desperate need of cash, but there just aint no money trees growing these days. Not like yesteryear. I can remember a brilliant scam that had to do with nicking microchips for computers and the chaps involved made a right good packet–but that was then. I suppose they’ve invested it all by now—-or are still looking for a home for their blagged dosh.
Starting from the top then.
There absolutely was, and still is, a hateful campaign. There is no question of that whatsoever and people must be as blind as a bat not to recognise it. Again i will point back to my last blog that for no other company in the history of tax avoidance in the UK has so much been written about online by the normal Joe Punter off the street. The moral outrage is was more about hating Rangers than it was about hating Tax avoidance. Unquestionably.
Moving onto Greens statements about “still being in the SPL” etc then i 100% agree with you Paul. By not paying PAYE and NI, Craig Whyte firmly put paid to any notion that a CVA was ever going to be achieved. There was no way HMRC would have voted for it and lets not be mistaken, their debt was higher than the percentage required.
I also then agree with your premise that Green wouldnt have got anywhere near the club if it wasnt for the Big Tax Case, but i think the argument is mute in that he didnt say that. He simply said people were “turned against” the idea and he was spot on with that.
I also laughed at the 11 month thing. I understand the time it took and certainly dont believe there was anything sinister about it, not that Green said that by the way.
Creditors, i have covered above.
I disagree that a decision pre February wouldnt have changed anything though as i believe that as previously stated, people were still frightened of taking the club on with the BTC hanging over our head. Its possible that if the BTC was delivered before 14th February then someone would have came in and took on the then existing stuff, though, subject to a number of conditions around Whyte mind you.
The rest is really only covering more of the same above.
So in the main, i agree with most of what you have wrote Paul though in some parts, i see a different angle.
Despite agreeing with most of though, the usual suspects will still press the Thumbs down button, only serving to confirm my opening point. 😉
Thumbs up from this suspect. 😉
I’ll disagree slightly with one aspect of your criticism, Adam.
Green’s notion of a ‘hateful campaign’ encompasses just about everybody who has the slightest criticism of Rangers, including those who merely want to see rules applied. He made great show of demonstrating his own capacity for hatred by ostentatiously clapping along to a chant from his supporters which ran along the lines of “Clap your hands if you hate the SFA.”
(Or was it the SPL? It might have been both; I can’t quite remember.)
Regardless of the niceties of that detail, the big picture is quite obvious. Green dismisses all criticism of Rangers because, in his version, it is motivated by hatred and even bigotry. Utter rubbish.
Yes, there are people who despise Rangers for what it stood for and for the damage it has done to the national game. There are many more who dislike them for the same reasons. And there are still more who couldn’t give a damn about Rangers – or any other football club, for that matter – but can still see and condemn wrongdoings when they’re pointed out.
Green would have it that they are all part of the same campaign of hatred.
It won’t do to dismiss the legitimate concerns of decent people who have now started to become aware of the scale and nature of corporate tax fraud because the issue was finally presented to them in a form which they could begin to understand as part of a subject (football) which they were already keenly interested about.
The problem we have though Henry is the decent people with legitimate concerns over corporate tax fraud writing about Rangers daily are in the very, very tiny minority.
The rest have used it as an excuse for their hatred.
Though please dont think Im advocating this is one way traffic as i know if the shoe was on the other foot, it would be the exact same the opposite way.
We cant get away from the fact that at the bottom of all this is sheer football rivalry, and in the main, major football rivalry = hatred.
@ Adam
I really feel sorry if you actually believe that: major football rivalry = hatred.
If I ever thought that my love of football was causing me to hate anyone or even another football club then I can assure you I would walk-away from the beautiful game and seek medical advice.
As you do appear to suffer from what is a really serious condition – and I ain’t pissing about here – I truly would recommend that you seek some help and possibly your GP should be your first port of call. It is very very serious when what is just a ‘game’ has got you hating people.
There is hatred at the gutter level of quite a number of football supports but this has nothing to do with football because even if the game didn’t exist the people I speak of would find some other excuse to vent their hatred.
ecojon, i did say “in the main” but equally i take your point that if it wasnt for football, people would still find reason.
However its important that we dont beat around the bush. When you have evidence that a football site has 293 pages in a month on their rivals and only 285 on the biggest tournament in Europe over 3 months, we shouldnt kid ourselves on.
Hatred exists between Rangers fans and Celtic fans.
It is an undeniable fact. Not opinion.
Adam says: “When you have evidence that a football site has 293 pages in a month on their rivals and only 285 on the biggest tournament in Europe over 3 months, we shouldn’t kid ourselves on.
Hatred exists between Rangers fans and Celtic fans.”
It is undeniable tripe. Not fact.
In order to finally put Adam’s spurious point out of its misery let me point out:
There are
285 pages on a thread about the Champions League in general,
155 pages in three other threads about the Benfica v Celtic match,
211 pages in three other threads about the Celtic v Barcelona match
There are over 200 threads discussing other Celtic-related matters, including, but not limited to, Scott Brown’s hip injury, all of the Youth Team’s matches, opinions about the manager’s development, every SPL and cup match which involves the first XI, photographs and memorabilia about Celtic, individual threads to debate the qualities of squad members, catering at Celtic Park and literally dozens of other topics.
Oh.
And there is ONE thread running to 293 pages for discussing any aspect of Rangers which is considered to be worth talking about in the continuing wake of the biggest scandal ever to afflict Scottish football. Many of these matters, by the way, directly affected and disadvantaged Celtic.
@ Adam
I really am getting bored at the amount of your ‘undeniable’ facts that are actually a product of your warped opinion. Either your grasp of reality is somewhat faulty or you are deliberately attempting to skew eveything to your point of view.
I have no problem if it’s the latter and it turns you on but yet again you have been skewered – this time by Henry Clarson. You really will need to up your game or people will stop playing with you as your gameplan is totally predictable and oh so boring 😦
@ Adam
A numbers man who is very selective in the facts selected for presentation – Bingo you must have been a Rangers accountant at some stage 🙂
Have you no shame man? If I were you and Henry Clarson had done that demo job on on me I would hang my head in shame. Naw I would be heading up the Amazon on a one-way ticket or looking for a berth on a submarine. And I would make sure that even if there was intenert access that I kept well away from the bampots as I made sure there were no gaps in my foil helmet 🙂
You must be careful Adam not to mix up your opinion with fact.
They are not the same thing.
Adam, I personally think that many people have intuitively abhorred Rangers but, for whatever reason, lacked the various skills necessary to articulate their argument clearly.
Because the intelligentsia in general rarely deigned to address outrageous issues at Rangers’ very core (for example, the indefensible sectarian signing policy) the ordinary person was left nursing a strong sense of grievance and an ever-growing distrust of the establishment in all of its forms.
For the most part, there was no remedy other than to try to keep one’s head down and bite one’s lip in the face of all manner of injustices. When, at long last there appeared a realistic prospect of a solid opportunity to haul the club over the coals for tax fiddling, it should be no surprise that there was a huge appetite to see it suffer. It is only reaping the harvest which it sowed itself. And not one moment before time.
As a club, as an institution and as a symbol of so much that is fundamentally wrong with society as a whole – never mind Scottish football – Rangers deserves no sympathy whatsoever for being utterly humiliated and laid low.
Many people rejoice when a bully is cut down to size. If the bully chooses to regard that glee as hatred, he may even be partly right. But the main cause for celebration will usually be that wrongs are being atoned for, punishment is being meted out to one who undeservedly evaded it for too long and long-suffering victims of injustice are, for once, triumphant.
It is encouraging to see the fall from grace of arrogant, smug, self-important rotters such as Jeffrey Archer, Fred Goodwin, Rebekkah Brooks and many others. It indicates that those of us who believe in doing the right thing for the right reasons will not always be trodden underfoot by unprincipled, shameless egotists who believe that the rules are only for the little people. Of course, much of the time the rules are only for the little people and it’s the little people who know it better than anyone else. But that is why there is such a wave of enthusiasm when that disgusting order of things is very occasionally overturned.
In effect, Mr.Green is misrepresenting what is essentially a cry of, ‘We Are The (Little) People’ as the battle-hymn of a campaign of hatred against Rangers. That’s beyond irony.
It is an indisputable fact that, over the last month, the KDS “Sevco Thread” has consistently been one of the two or three most popular threads on that Celtic site!
As a Celtic fan my take on this is that, although Celtic fans per se are not paranoid or obsessed, it is possible that the small minority of Hoops supporters who post on the internet may well be.
That is my reading, anyway.
To belong to a site like KDS you have to be an Ultra with no open-mindedness, IMO
‘To belong to a site like KDS you have to be an Ultra with no open-mindedness, IMO.’
Then it is clear that you do not know much about the membership of the KDS site, Observer. It encompasses just about the entire spectrum of the Celtic support.
You, like Adam, have also missed the point about the apparent popularity of the single Sevco thread in relation to hundreds of other active threads about Celtic.
Henry Clarson
November 30, 2012 at 1:19 am
‘To belong to a site like KDS you have to be an Ultra with no open-mindedness, IMO.’
Then it is clear that you do not know much about the membership of the KDS site, Observer.
———————-
I was banned from KDS for expressing some sympathy for RFC fans and for criticising “RTC Blog” for running away.
Banned from the site, you say? I wonder if I am the only one who suspects that there may be a prominent chip on Observer’s shoulder. 😉
Observer, how can I put this…I just don’t believe you.
I’m just a non-bigoted Celtic fan based in England who thinks the religion thing is F%^&*ING B*LLOCKS which shld be consigned to ancient history.
A lot of you guys up in Glasgow want to keep this cr%p going.
You are crazy & you are well out of time!
Observer, you’re no more a Celtic supporter than I am a Chelsea supporter. You were rumbled on KDS and you’re giving yourself away here.
At least have the dignity to fight your corner in your true colours.
Clear and to the point as usual HC.
@Henry Clarson,
Here’s a little question that no one associated with
Rangers,old or new,ever seem to ask themselves.
WHY DOES everyone,to their minds,”hate” them?
Hmmm,no,can’t think of anything!!!!!!!
Is their mantra of “No body likes us,we don’t care”
no longer applicable?
Seems they DO now care that no body likes them.
Reap and sow anyone?
@Henry Clarson
Oops think we overlapped on the “reap and sow” front.
Don’t want to be accused of plagiarising the great HC 🙂
Maggie, I am far from the first to have suggested the metaphor of reaping what you sow. 😉
Regarding the answer to the question of why Rangers feel that everyone hates them, I venture to suggest that the stock reply would be that everyone else is jealous of their success, their status and their dominance. There may even be some who genuinely believe that.
Another standard reply is that anti-Rangers sentiment is driven by an equivalent, polar reverse of the mindless bigotry which has epitomised generations of the loyal Ibrox support. This is rarely the case. Nevertheless, in the relatively small number of cases where it does hold true, the scale is disproportionately magnified in order to support their mistaken belief. Those who live on the dark side of the planet should avoid drawing the fallacious conclusion that it is just as dark on the opposite side.
Mr. Green, like numerous previous leaders at Ibrox, recognises the potential for making a profit by cynically encouraging delusions amongst his target market. He appears to have no scruples about whole-heartedly promulgating whatever poisonous myth is best suited to his need to align himself with the mob at any given moment so that he will be able to cash in at their expense at the time of his choosing.
I dare say that he and his supporters probably deserve each other.
Henry Clarson
November 30, 2012 at 1:19 am
‘To belong to a site like KDS you have to be an Ultra with no open-mindedness, IMO.’
Then it is clear that you do not know much about the membership of the KDS site, Observer.’
————————
KDS is a good and informative site, but it is clearly sectarian.
Hun this, Hun that every other post. It is pretty nasty.
I’m a Celtic supporter & don’t feel the need to go there to back my team
Henry Clarson:
I see that you have persobally attacked me on KDS.
That seems below the belt since I had already told you I had been banned from that forum for giving succour to hurting Gers fans & cannot therefore respond to yr attack upon me on that forum!
Is it yr modus operandi to attack someone on a forum in full knowledge that they cannot respond to yr attack??
This is cowardly bullying and not acceptable.
Man up, mate.
Observer said “To belong to a site like KDS you have to be an Ultra with no open-mindedness”
and
“KDS is a good and informative site, but it is clearly sectarian. Hun this, Hun that every other post.”
and now,
“Henry Clarson: I see that you have persobally [sic] attacked me on KDS.”
Firstly, I am a member of KDS so your idiotic slur on every member of that fine site is also a personal attack on me. Remember those earlier posts on this blog which spoke of reaping what you sow? Have another read at what you brought to this discussion and ask yourself just how many hundreds of Celtic supporters you are personally attacking with your stupid claim that only closed-minded Ultras can belong to KDS.
The accusation that it is “clearly sectarian” is peerless stupidity and malicious ignorance. Newsflash: supporters of every club in Scotland, (except the new one that joined the 3rd division this season) have referred to Rangers as “The Huns” for as long as I have lived. The term “Hun” is not sectarian and it will continue to be used by thousands upon thousands of football supporters from Aberdeen to Stranraer and all points between.
Secondly, here is the full text of my only post on KDS about you:
“Who is this much missed-poster, currently posting as ‘Observer’ on Paul McConville’s blog ?”
Be so good, if you will, to point out the nature of the personal attack.
You gave an account of how horrible, closed-minded, bigoted Ultras on a “clearly sectarian” site had unjustly banned you. I went to the site to check your account against the recollections of my fellow sectarian, closed-minded Ultras and found that everyone who remembered you at all had absolutely no doubt whatsoever that your Celtic-supporting credentials were entirely bogus.
Everything suggests that you were not banned because you criticised RTC or said nice things about Rangers supporters. You were banned because your posts clearly indicated that you were yet another Rangers supporter making a wretchedly incompetent attempt to go undercover on a Celtic supporters’ forum.
You don’t appear to have learned much since then.
Clarson: your main attack on me is based on the idea that I am “secretly a Rangers fan”.
What if I was? Would that make my opinions worthless?
But, as it happens I have supported Celtic FC since the first time I ever saw a football game: my dad had bought a tv specifically so the family could watch the 1967 European cup final.
I am not saying you are a bigot mate, but yr mind seems mighty closed when you are looking to “purge” the Celtic support and “out” people like me who are lifetime CFC fans as somehow Rangers moles in the John Le Carre fashion!
That is crackers.
You – and your beloved KDS – should loosen up & accept that in a diverse society there are are a myriad of views.
Some of those views will challenge you.
Some of them will enhance you, Henry
They think everyone hates them coz we’re all jealous of their trophies/success! They’re too arrogant to look beyond this myth. I keep hearing it like a broken record..”most successful club side…bla,bla,bla”.
can you give us any examples of this hateful campaign, maybe some names and dates or is it just paranoiac ramblings that Celtic fans are usually tagged with
@ Adam
Perhaps your first paragraph (undernoted) might lead people to believe that the rest of what you write isn’t actually what you really believe or perhaps it’s just your first par that will cause people to TD you. Don’t worry so much about the Thumbs btw 🙂
However, I must applaud your progress: Form a man who couldn’t string a few words together we have no had a post and quite long responses. It took a bit of prompting but I am seriously wondering whether I should sell my motivational program far and wide in view of the amazing results it has helped achieve with your goodself. I see though that we still have a lot of work and a long way to go on successfully alleviating the paranoia problem.
UNDERNOTE
‘There absolutely was, and still is, a hateful campaign. There is no question of that whatsoever and people must be as blind as a bat not to recognise it. Again i will point back to my last blog that for no other company in the history of tax avoidance in the UK has so much been written about online by the normal Joe Punter off the street. The moral outrage is was more about hating Rangers than it was about hating Tax avoidance. Unquestionably.’
adam, i welcome your input to this blog. i have to say, that, it is my personal view that lots of people will not give ‘rangers’ any creedence, post liquidation as, at no point in the last 5 to 10 years did any of the ‘rangers’ CEO’s or chairmen or board in general, tackle the gross overspending.
a prime example of this is the purchase of jelavic for circa £4million.
instead of using that money to drive down the debt, they continued to crassley follow a false economy.
at no time as anybody from ‘rangers’ actually put their hands up and admitted – ‘rangers’ were themselves at fault – we made an arse of it. so to speak!
ans adam, can i ask what your opinion is, regarding ‘rangers’ 100 plus years of institutional anti-catholic ethos?
@JimLarkin wow I agree with you on that (for a change) good point except for the last sentence but only from a personal perspective, religion is not part of my football world..
As i have said before, I will not be dragged into a debate on religion as this is not the place. I am here to discuss the financial aspects of what has happened in the few years.
The debate is not about religion. It’s about discrimination. Rangers discriminated by not employing people from an irish/Catholic background.
Can I ask what your opinion is, regarding ‘rangers’ 100 plus years of institutional discrimination?
It might even be described as leading to a hateful campaign
@ Adam
With bucketloads of hatred thrown in for good measure spiced with so-called facts that it would be foolish to rely on.
adam
Obviously as you are paying £100,000 in tax, you can afford to put the blinkers on, and be up to your knees in numbers.
Adam
Firstly, let me say I enjoyed your blog the other day and I offer my congratulations to you for a well written and reasoned piece.
I fail to understand however, why Rangers fans take issue with what is described as a “hateful campaign” against their club. I am not denying the existence of a hateful campaign, but for people who, in the main, loathe everything connected with Celtic and in particular, a certain individual from Lurgan to be horrified that such emotion be aimed in their direction is hypocrisy of the highest order.
In my humble opinion.
Althetim, as ive said above, the feeling absolutely goes both ways between the supporters.
I am only pointing out that there was a hateful campaign and i am surprised people cant see that.
I’m surprised you even mentioned it Adam.
“but i think the argument is mute ”
Pedant alert Adam but it should be “moot” not mute. That goes for everyone else on here too! Get ir right! And it’s “lose” not “loose”. And “whet” not “wet”
(gets up and runs round the room screaming with hair on fire before throwing himself through the window )
@blind summit63
Fantastic!!!! I’ve been dying to do that!!!!!
Maggie
What about there and their and theyr,
@Budweiser
You do know it’s “they’re” a contraction of “they are”
You just threw that in to test me,didn’t you?
@Maggie
Please tell me you were referring to the 1st part only & not the self-immolation!
Thank you for your kind support Maggie.
Rab, I can reassure you my self immolation is merely metaphorical. I do build up a head of steam eventually with the abuse of certain words. The widespread use now of “loose” instead of “lose” in particular gets on my wick!
And it’s “toe the line” people, not “tow the line”. Use. Of “tow” completely changes the meaning of the phrase, ironically to something almost the opposite of its real meaning!
I only have old school O level English by the way. Back when the Scottish education system was worth something. So I ain’t no superior academic, in case anyone thinks I am. Just an ordinary pleb who values our language 🙂
The ones which get on my wick are.. aswell & alot !!
I wish everyone would spellcheck
What do we want?
The word hatered is used far to much when talikng about the BTC, its more to do with the bully being brought down to size or simply the dislike for the club or fans, but thats big diffrence from Hatered… In the 1950’s-60’s the Club would never have been voted out by the SPL like they were in the summer, the fans should be asking themselves what has changed about the club or type of support we attract in that time to make us so disliked by so many diffrent clubs.
Good points made Adam, and of course the discussion should include views from as many different angles as possible.
I find the hatred point interesting, although I do think you over-estimate it a bit. Try describing that ‘hate’: to me, most of those fans of the former (sorry, that’s my view) ‘Old Firm’ who declare to hate the other team do so, on the whole, out of a perception that the others hate them! In this respect, and having a thorough look at the history and culture of either side, many neutral observers would find (as some sociologists already have) that the culture and history of such ‘hate’ originated on the Ibrox side. Yes, I know, of course I would say that, I am a Celtic supporter, but there have been completely unbiased studies over the years that have backed this view.
That said, looking at how it affects our discussions here, I think you’re probably talking about the many posts from obviously Parkhead-leaning posters who have always hugely enjoyed discomfort being felt at Ibrox. I have too, and of course I know and accept that those whose hearts are attached to Ibrox would have every right to feel that way if the positions were reversed. But I would say most of the ‘hate’ you see expressed on this blog is, in the main, done with much tongue in cheek.
However, if you do want to see some ‘hard core’ hatred, you only need to click on to sites such as the Bears Den. At least the digs at Rangers and Sevco here actually pertain to the various financial and legal problems (as they should), and I haven’t read any ‘Timmy’ leaning comment that ever went into such distasteful areas as ‘paedophilia’, as some ‘Peepul’ have.
To get back to the matter at hand, I think it is also a little naive to say that only a few people care about corporate tax avoidance. One look at UK-wide serious papers in recent weeks would have shown you that it is quite a hot topic. You may think that the ordinary man in the street feels it is beyond their ken and care, but I’d say the opposite: indeed it may be one of the biggest ever legacies the Thatcher years.
OK, I am not unbiased, but I like to think I can see and argue logically – and I like to think 26 years living and working in the London area has helped free me from some of the more unpalatable sides of ‘hatred’ that seems to still pervade Glasgow culture. So I continue to be ever grateful that a blog like this exists where things are discussed at least civilly – the digs and the banter are no doubt inevitable, given the subject matter.
However, I do think that everything that has happened over Ibrox way in the past few years shows an organisation that has been in shock that it can’t just do what it wants with impunity any more. Never mind the big tax case – which, as anyone can read, is hardly a slam-dunk – there’s enough evidence to show that the club has behaved abysmally and is still in the dock of wider public opinion, and owners, directors, managers, new AND old still don’t see anything wrong in what they’ve done. That, to me, is the most distasteful thing of all.
Quote:
“There absolutely was, and still is, a hateful campaign. There is no question of that whatsoever and people must be as blind as a bat not to recognise it. “
Well pardon me for not recognising it, please forgive me if I appear to be questioning it against your wishes !
Hate is a strong word, in my view, but it has been used by Rangers supporters and the new owners to describe anything that is not 100% pro Rangers.
Quote:
“no other company in the history of tax avoidance in the UK has so much been written about online by the normal Joe Punter off the street. The moral outrage is was more about hating Rangers than it was about hating Tax avoidance. Unquestionably.”
Unquestionably ?
Have you closed the discussion, or is opinion allowed ?
I have no real input on the history of UK tax avoidance so will move on. The reason for the huge interest is: that the case is more immediate to the Scottish public than some large multi-national. Even people with only a passing interest were aware of how big Rangers were.
Some people don’t like Rangers, some are indifferent, a few hate them. There are degrees of antagonism. Just lumping it all together as hate is too simplistic. I think the reaction was driven by the fact that Rangers had spent beyond their means for a long time and left loads of people out of pocket.
In terms of tax avoidance I don’t discriminate. If you sail close to the wind and it backfires don’t come crying to me – I have no sympathy. If it is because of you that the British film industry keeps Hugh Grant and his many clones in employment – I feel something close to hatred.
As far as the tax case goes. The actual hearing of evidence was all done by the time that the comments were being made except maybe in a few niche blogs. The information that was coming out was quite startling at times. I got hooked because I have never seen a case study unfold real time.
The fact that media coverage of Rangers in the old days was huge helped the story to spread and stick
Quote:“Despite agreeing with most of though, the usual suspects will still press the Thumbs down button, only serving to confirm my opening point”
Rise above the TD, not everyone will love you and lap up your stuff. Address those of us who will assess your posts on their merits. Focusing on TDs doesn’t help your argument in any way.
While I am on I thought I would comment on another of your posts.
“cant get away from the fact that at the bottom of all this is sheer football rivalry, and in the main, major football rivalry = hatred.”
I am not a passionate fan of any side. I know a few who are, they are passionate, biased: blinkered at times and lots of other things but they are never bigoted or hateful, in fact for the people I am thinking of just the opposite.
Let’s reserve hate, hateful, bigotry for extreme emotions OR: agree that they are terms of mild disapproval and replace them with other words to signify extreme emotions, otherwise I will be hard pushed to express my feelings towards Christmas TV and film offering and Brussel sprouts.
Charles Green. Turning out to be another colourful, flawed character at the heart of the latest Ranger’s machine.
There is something distinctly glib about his manner, his erroneous facts and his vacuous declarations. I’m still not sure if its a front (he can say what he likes because there are no consequences) or a reflection of someone utterly superficial. If we get to scratch the surface will we find a tough game plan playing out with ruthless efficiency? Or a frighteningly insubstantial level of intellect and ability for the not insignificant challenge of resurrecting TRFC?
My only certainty is that I’m not going to find out by listening to JT’s Open Line, buying a paper or browsing the disappointing commentary of RST. And maybe that’s why the surface isn’t even scratched yet.
@ NumbNuts
I think it’s interesting to observe his recent much quieter utterances which perhaps might reflect on the future AIM Flotation. I am particularly pleased to see that he no longer appears to be ruling out playing in the SPL which can only be good news for potential AIM investors who wish to maximise profit levels through share transactions.
the thing that troubles me in all this is. DUFF@PHELPS allowing a none starter of an offer in the cva if you accept this cva we will give you a loan deal of £8. 5 million and I would say DUFF@PHELPS know that the HMRC don’t do cva, so there was only really one offer, on the table, take it or leave it, yet the offer from the yank guy was the same terms divide the debt but he offered more. yet got turned down. also the blue knights deal.
was it the mention of a CVA that got Green the deal, and why was the land and all, not put up for a public auction,as i AM sure Duff and Phelps’s job is to get money for creditors, and not there on sympathy i believe they would have got that money for the car PARK ALONE AND even
if they had put a meter in it them self lol
HMRC made major blunder in allowing D&P to be appointed.
During their tenure a lot more money was lost and the CVA deal was potentially zero pence in the pounds and it all carries on or potentially zero pence in the pound: in either event we charge our fee. in the event HMRC had policies in place and the ability to stop the nonsense.
I agree that the assets were worth a lot more than what Green paid for them.
I must say that in terms of asset valuation in Company Accounts, even very qualified and experienced accountants are surprised at what companies can et away with by narrow interpretation of the rules.
@paul
I’ve been following this saga quite addictively for months now and I’d forgotten several points you make above that in themselves would cast serious doubt on Mr Green’s motives/integrity/sanity/memory/intelligence.
In fact, it leads me to believe that Mr Green may actually be higher than average along the sociopathy/psychopathy spectrum. This fascinating condition/syndrome is best described by the work of Prof Robert Hare (University of British Columbia) who has developed a checklist and scoring system for indicative behaviours – listed below. A few strong behaviours are common, “normal” and often desirable. However, a high number of strong behaviours in combination can start alarm bells ringing.
Why not assess yourself, friends, family and your favourite Rangerati
Factor 1: Personality “Aggressive narcissism”
• Glibness/superficial charm
• Grandiose sense of self-worth
• Pathological lying
• Cunning/manipulative
• Lack of remorse or guilt
• Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
• Callousness; lack of empathy
• Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
Factor 2: Case history “Socially deviant lifestyle”.
• Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
• Parasitic lifestyle
• Poor behavioral control
• Lack of realistic long-term goals
• Impulsivity
• Irresponsibility
• Juvenile delinquency
• Early behavior problems
• Revocation of conditional release
Traits not correlated with either factor
• Promiscuous sexual behavior
• Many short-term (marital) relationships
• Criminal versatility
• Acquired behavioural sociopathy/sociological conditioning (Item 21: a newly identified trait i.e., a person relying on sociological strategies and tricks to deceive)
read more here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist
mcfc;
May I humbly direct you to my blogpost of the 11th of July which addressed similar issues?
@henry
very enjoyable read – I’m sure Paul would welcome a guest post sometime
@ Henry Clarson
Enjoyed that – had a quick read but will go back and savour it more slowly.
I should have added these two paragraphs below which explain the mechanics of scoring. Please be careful when sharing assessments as they may appear libelous. And we all know the truth is not always a good defence in libel cases.Maybe colour-coding would help: Green, White, Red, Black. 🙂
Each of the 20 items in the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R) is scored on a three-point scale, with a rating of 0 if it does not apply at all, 1 if there is a partial match or mixed information, and 2 if there is a reasonably good match to the offender. This is said to be ideally done through a face-to-face interview together with supporting information on lifetime behavior (e.g. from case files), but is also done based only on file information. It can take up to three hours to collect and review the information.
High PCL-R scores are positively associated with measures of impulsivity and aggression, Machiavellianism, persistent criminal behavior, and negatively associated with measures of empathy and affiliation. 30 out of a maximum score of 40 is recommended as the cut-off for the label of psychopathy, although there is little scientific support for this as a particular break point. For research purposes a cut-off score of 25 is sometimes used. In fact, the UK has used a cut-off of 25 rather than the 30 used in the United States.
Read more at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Psychopathy_Checklist
The apex complex comes to mind.
@portpower
Hi, I’m not familiar with that – tell me more ….
Apex complex, a prehistoric cultural tradition.
If you don`t learn by your mistakes you`ll end up the way of the dodo.
They`ve had their shot in the sun and they thought they were what they were. To be polite they almost made it to 140. It`s a wake and i`m Laying out the body of a departed.
Drink with me Marion.
@Adam the hate campaign is one I have heard from many rangers minded, I don’t mean to sound condescending but I would love to see evidence of this… When rangers beat celtic or win some silverware that celtic could have won then i am tempted to hate a little, I am sure it would be the same in reverse… But I would like your take on hate, in whate way with examples if you can spare a few minutes…
@ JimBhoy
I have always struggled with the ‘hate’ tag because the only people I have ever ‘hated’ are those who attempted to physically harm my family. As we seem to be specifically discussing Rangers fans I have good mates and relatives who are Rangers fans. I was happily married to a red-hot Rangers fan. Why would I hate Rangers fans?
The group triumphalism and belief that they are superior to everyone else I find sad and shows the dangers when someone’s whole life and reason for existance revolves around a football team. Happily the vast majority of Bears as they mature do develop a more balanced approach to life especially if they travel and experience life outwith Scotland.
As to religious bigoterie well it’s passing into history although we are seeing a slight resurrection for the tawdry purpose of selling football STs and shares. Whoever ends up owning Ibrox, once the circus departs. will need to rebuild community relations and we must be prepared to back those moves if they are genuine.
Hatred is a road to nowhere except bitterness and isolation and those who travel it do so at their own moral peril.
ecojon
November 29, 2012 at 5:53 pm
and shows the dangers when someone’s whole life and reason for existance revolves around a football team.
———————-
Umm, ecojohn: you post on here about a dozen times a day, every day!
What does your existence revolve around??
@adam
I thought it was Celtic fans who were the ones who are paranoid.
You haven’t even walked a couple yards in our shoes (crica ’94) and your getting blisters
A word for the ordinary Joe punter (and Josephine punter (lets be fair))
Being ordinary, they probably have ordinary jobs. If they are lucky they will earn something around the national average wage, though that is unlikely.
In fact most likely they will earn less than that, the few people lucky enough to earn extremely high salaries make averages a somewhat clumsy tool in estimating the most common earnings, local factors also come into play and I’m assuming our guys are from Scotland 🙂
The monies earned by football players have for some years now dwarfed the earnings of the vast majority of fans that attend the matches. That’s annoying, Mr and Mrs Joe pay to see the matches and buy the TV subscriptions from their ordinary wages.
Mr and Mrs Joe are already siting at the keyboard ready to vent. But whats this? On top of the huge salaries they find out that players are also given loans, big loans, big loans that may never in the players lifetime be called due.
AND they Knocked us out of the cup last year, beat us at home, or pipped us to the championship.
Well, ‘haud me back!’ says Mr and Mrs Joe ‘that’s enough!’ we’re going to have our say.
Moral outrage on tax affairs does not just happen, it takes a perfect storm.
Many a nameless faceless company nobody ever new existed has fallen foul of tax law. No one notices, it’s left to HMRC.
The trouble with being famous (as Rangers undoubtedly are) is that every thing you do will be scrutinized. You can of course categorize this as a campaign of hate. But you would be wrong.
Being famous in Scotland is to be ‘too big for your boots’. Be careful what you do. Mr and Mrs Joe are watching.
@ Martin
You’re quite right when you say: ‘Many a nameless faceless company nobody ever new existed has fallen foul of tax law. No one notices, it’s left to HMRC’.
It’s a simple fact that unless the company is a household name or there are major names or media personalities linked with it then it is highly unlikely that any news outlet would ever cover the story so from that angle it won’t come out to the general public.
There is also the fact that most tax investigations take place in confidential circumstances so that is another barrier to the facts being known even to the media unless there is a whistleblower but it seems that some people don’t like whistleblowing. Fair enough but you can’t have your cake and eat it
Neither of these arguments constitutes any secret plan to suppress the news – it’s just life and the particular circumstances involved unless of course there are highly-paid PR companies at work which is a totally different kettle of fish 🙂
Ecojon,
When Mr and Mrs (ordinary) Joe get involved, look out!
Some would describe ‘ordinary’ as a state which contains participating in a campaign of hate towards Rangers rather than an ‘ordinary’ reaction to events surrounding any famous entity in similar circumstances.
If those who support Rangers want a better understanding of the forces at work, they need to simply remove themselves from the equation and substitute an equal other.
@Martin
“and Josephine punter”
Dr Heidi Poon and I thank you Martin 🙂
Maggie,
Dr Poon, surely the queen of all punteresses 🙂
Maggie,
As far as i can tell a ‘punter’ in Glasgow terms is a ‘good thing’ separate from the gamboling sense of ‘punter’
I like this word, and consider all good people to be ‘punters’ 🙂
I could have said gambling, but I was frolicking at the time of writing. 🙂
@Martin.
Of course a “punter” is a good thing to all
West of Scotland people.
I’m imagining you gambolling down to the bookies
to begin gambling as a punter 🙂
@ Martin & Maggie
The most usual meaning of ‘punter’ in Glasgow is ‘just an ordinary guy’.
Then there is ‘punter’ in terms of a prostitute’s client.
And as you mention a ‘punter’ in gambling terms although I would say that this is probably specifically towards gambling on dogs and horses and maybe pitch and toss.
I think, just in case I ever end up in front of an FTTT, that I will declare that Dr Poone would fall under the ‘just an ordinary gal’ definition because she obviously knows what goes on in ordinary life away from the rarified atmospher of the legal chambers.
@ecojon
Still indefatigable I see eco.I feel Adam withering before
the onslaught from your good self,Paul,the Bhoys John and Jim,
Henry C,Martin et al.
Now i Pad about to die on me,so bonne nuit tout le monde.
“See” you all the morra no doubt.
People are not so exercised about Google, Amazon etc because they are not Scottish Institutions on whose existence Scotland’s national sport depends, as said by our esteemed FM.
They are also not exorcised because the feel powerless in the face of multinationals. Not so with Rangers.
I think ADAM is of the mind no one should say anything about rangers
at all, he wants that left too those that are in charge, if he hears of any one say anything, his idea is you are only saying this because it is rangers
and you must hate them to say anything. no grey area here, its a bit like the law in Saudi Arabia they are also of the opinion if you where not here the accident would not have happened to them or to you,. so you would be wasting your time trying to change there mind, rangers support have that in there head, but they love nothing better than full praise, and would all do the bouncy bouncy hearing it. if you say they did wrong, his answer will be every one has done it. nothing to see here.
Not at all. Paul has said a few things about Rangers in this blog, most of which i have agreed with.
@Martin good descriptive example and part of my follow up to adam (when he replies 🙂 )
We have discussed in Adam’s previous guest post how much we all think aggresssive aoidance of tax and sailing close to the wind of tax regulation is an abuse of common decency and citizenship. Do i hate rangers for doing that for years (even though some say legal), well yeah I hate that this happened as much as I would any other large company who are happy to reap the rewards of taking from the UK market and paying minimal tax for the privilege. As much as I hate the bankers for their greed, politicians for claiming expenses to clean their moat for a house they dont even live in..
I hate the fact that Scottish football has been dragged thru the gutter because of all that has happened.
I hate the fact that we have ineptitude at a football authority level to quickly and honestly deal with the circus that this was/is.
I hate some of the disparaging comments from Green and how he gets away with saying anything he wants to without fact or foundation and I hate how he has not had a serious question to answer. I hate how he has put little money in to buy the assets of a club then tells the public they are worth 10 times more and the people owed money will see a few hundred K at most. Costing jobs, massive cutbacks etc
I hate radical viewpoints and threatening behaviour from fans (probably most of all and I do not just mean rangers fans)
However, if this were Celtic I am sure they would have been treated exactly the same.
Jimbhoy,
When you are on the sharp end of public opinion it’s easy to assume there is a campaign against you and think you are simply and wrongly hated. You will learn nothing from this.
Far better and much more informative to ask why?
@Eco I think there are various degrees of hate, I have a similar family set up as you, i have mentioned that before and I am not a true follower of any religion. My hate would be a strong dislike on my post to Martin.
@ JimBhoy
To me ‘hate’ is a very serious term and should not be confused with issues which cause various degrees of annoyance which pass relatively quickly.
Hatred is something which can eat at someone mentally because it never ever goes away – it remains burrowing away and warping judgement as it feeds and grows on false perceptions and premises.
From everything I know about you and what you believe I can confidently declare that you are symptom-free 🙂
Although perhaps I need a Paul Disclaimer: Nothing I state on this blog should be taken as medical advice, nor do I accept any liability if anyone chooses to act or not to act on what I write, having taken it as medical advice 🙂 🙂
One wee footie observation I have made of late… Every game rangers play is a cup final for their opponents I think thats a given and was expected. I think Celtic are suffering from similar, as other teams only have one of the big boys on the block to raise their game and individual profiles so I think there is a more concentrated concerted effort there too, players knowing they have less of a shot against the big boys. I guess the other incentive is a second place finished as opposed to a probably max third.
More youngsters looking for an opportunity to get into the big boys will be a an incentive for teams against rangers and celtic…
Not making excuses for Celtic’s sh!t home form, they will be a better team away from home as that usually means a more open game. But teams are up for their 4 cup finals…
Makes for an interesting and unique season.
@ JimBhoy
Well hopefully not unique as we should have at least another two like it.
I have actually been wondering how this ‘spark’ can be maintained if Rangers eventually make a return to the SPL. They probably will as I have previously argued in playing terms althought 3 years I think is hopeful and it could be at least 4 years.
But there are other very important non-footballing issues concerned that might have a more negative affect on their football progress. However, we should be looking to the future because Rangers will not remain in a lower league from choice despite what chico says as his institutional shareholders just wouldn’t allow it – they would sack him as CEO if push came to shove. Anyone who doubts that need only look at the circumstances of his Sheffield departure.
So do either of the current reconstruction schemes provide the key or is it some other formula. I would be a crying shame to return to a fixed Big 2 mentality and indeed that might actually be something that actually could kill the league after the excitement and competition which has been generated in the last few months.
I don’t want to drag this thread off-topic but I think the idea could make a good guest post which is what it deserves. I don’t have the kind of experience to write the post but I am sure others do. There might actually be an argument for a longer post made up of several contributions advocating different solutions.
@eco check my critique on pauls latest about the wee scotland performance…
No,CFC will cake this by 20-25 points as the standard is diabolical.When the Gers won three titles in a row recently we were diabolical.
C’mon,Kirk Broadfoot,Charlie Mulgrew,Lee McCulloch??
Thank God for the Olympics,the tennis and the Ryder Cup and Ricky Burns.
Scottish fitba is a sideshow that only Coliseum fans keep paying for.
Bah humbug!
Paul, excellent article.
I have adopted the phrase ‘Ugly Sisters’ from another blog. And it very much describes both halves of the old firm as was and will be again.
I have been to a few Old Firm games and I can tell you that hate was all around. I have also been to a lot more Hearts games and have seen more than my fair share of hate especially from those who sit near the away supporters end in the Wheatfield Stand.
I have also read a number of posts on this site, which have all the elements of hate filled bile and here I am referring to both sides. When now challenged by Adam for many of you to draw some kind of semantic distinction between what you write and hate, just will not wash. I can write that I feel that ‘RFC are lying cheating scum’ but that doesn’t mean I hate them. Oh? The dictionary definition of ‘Hate’ is ‘feel intense or passionate dislike for’. Maybe some of you thought it meant something else like murderous rage. If most Celtic supporters do not hate RFC and vice versa, I would be very surprised. And, Hearts supporters are none too keen on either.
I keep asking you to play nice and so has Paul, but some of you just cannot do it. Keep attacking hatred Adam.
On hating others from CQN.
I imagine some folk have their superstitions about watching Celtic, what they wear, what routine they follow before watching, what seems to be lucky what does’nt.
I had noticed that if I watch games on Celtic TV, as I have had to when a game is not televised, that performance and results are bad. It just so happens of course home games are not televised so it has to be Celtic TV on line..
However when did reason ever apply to superstition? It was as a result of the recognition that whenever I watched a game in my red jumper in the wee Irish bar at top of the road Celtic played well and won.
So last night I donned the red jumper and headed to Looneys Bar. The owner is from Northumbria and spoke fondly of Cleaton Moor Celtic of his home town, founded apparently by Irish iron miners, so between that and his wife being from Irish parentage I get the feeling its a Celtic friendly place but of course open to all.
I arrived just after ko to be told game was on screen upstairs where a couple of supporters were already seated. I could hear the Scots vioices as I waited for my pint to be pulled.
I go upstairs and one guy is facing me in the dark with his club shirt on. It looks to me like the Celtic black one. The other lad has his back to me but turns and says hullo. A wee bit chat follows about why we are down in the sun but with attention on the game.
The lad in the top nips out for a smoke and Celtic score. “You’ll need to nip out again “I shout to him with a smile.
It is only when he steps back and light from a tv showing Man U hits him I see its a Hearts top! That explained the quiet way the owner had told me there were 2 others upstairs.
Anyhoo we get chatting away about the game, Hearts situation- he was never a Romanov man and what comes across is he is as emotionally attached to his club as I am to mine. His pal was the same. We all express disdain for what Rangers have done to the game and share the same desire for the game and Hearts to recover. He buys into Paul67′s point about it being best for Scottish football if Celtic were able to play elswhere and both came across as decent guys and by no stretch of the imagination hvns, mini or otherwise.
I know such folk exist but it would be a mistake to let that type stop us from recognising far more supporters of other clubs are just decent Joes doing what we do. It would be tragic if in despising the wrong type we became like them ourselves.
Enjoyed the game and got red jersey ready for the next one.
Listen guys,this lady is running rings round us.I’m keeping out of her way.
I don’t talk back to my wee maw and just one rebuke from Violet and i’ll be in bits.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then 99 times out of 100, it’s not going to be a golden goose. In otherwords, the way Green’s spouting his verbal diarrhoea in every statement he makes, why would anyone hold out the hope that everything will turn out kosher?
I know it’s been said millions of times before, but the silence from 99% of the MSM, in terms of debunking Green’s myths, is deafening.
I also read that Charlie has said the Elgin ticket situation must not happen again. Infact, he said there must be league reconstruction because of it. How does league reconstruction stop a person from miscounting tickets? “We’re in a new league setup now Joe, make sure you count them tickets correctly.” Or maybe reconstruction is another one of them words that means something else in Yorkshire?
@ Coybig
I was actually amazed he got involved in that – shirley its up to the SFL Board and/or execs to deal with it. He still thinks all publicity is good publicity and he has yet to learn on that front while his PR company no doubt laugh all the way to the bank.
He got so uppity over it I wondered if the commission on away ticket saled to his own fans was actually important financially to Rangers. Elgin saw a chance to make money – they got caught – have been punished and hopefully they and others tempted to do the same have learnt their lesson because of the serious safety implications of the con.
I have been keeping an eye on Darkside sites in the last few days and there actually seems to signs that the Bears increasingly realise what he’s about and I think many have just decided to hunker-down till it all passes hoping the club survives intact. Certainly negative comments have been expressed without punters being hung, drawn and quartered.
I think a major problem in pinning chico on his claims is that the support has been badly divided by Murray and then Whyte and then Chico and then the seeming disinterest in the Rangers Men to save Ibrox. Within a few months of the share flotation I think things will become much clearer as to the future. It could also happen almost immediately after the flotation depending on what the masterplan is.
You have been keeping an eye on? Darkside ?,,,i now have an image of a 12yr old who dreams of growing up and having a career as an analyst at GCHQ.
You try to create an image of a wordly wise,pipe smoking,humanitarian full of love for your fellow man and then drift off into your alter imaginary ego,quaffing pints with Joe O Rourke,a very questionable soul.Spending massive portions of your life searching for juicy tit bits that you can present with a fatigued smiley to portray anyone and everything connected to RFC as children of a lesser God.
Your M.O of correcting others points of view from your very first contact,patronising tone and constant hounding of a poster with a different mindset is the single most objectionable element of this site.
You frantically stick your unwelcome nose into every subject being discussed and try to control any debate that isn’t heading to Ecoville.
Citations include;
Eco v Andy
Eco v Adam
Eco v Alex
Eco v Cam
Commonality-bluenoses.
Now if you disagree with these folk and their viewpoint then thats perfectly acceptable,you make your point,and move on.
Check back on your comments and see the pattern of a bairn thats getting beat at Monopoly and guess what,,,games a bogey,board folded and lip petted.
The big bhoys from RTC have decanted to here old son and its best to let them have their quality time together,re writing the FTT verdict,moralising on tax law and trying to educate an old knuckle dragger like myself.
I’ve told you before,your forte is long posts with mildly interesting Google references.
AAAAAh,,,,i feel better now,it was getting dull for a moment.
Bam! Where have you been? I’ve missed you! I was feeling down today.But then you came on with your sanguinary (look it up) post on Newco. But, you could be right, you know. I hear they’re courting some prominent Scottish businessmen to invest. But beware, Bam, as Honore de Balzac (look him up) said: ‘Behind every great fortune is a great crime.’
You really are a tube, Bam. You, and yours, are about to be shafted mightily, and you’re waltzing towards it with your pants round your ankles. Ah well, don’t say you weren’t warned.
(Sorry some of this is a bit cryptic, but there are serious people out there you wouldn’t want to cross. I mean, my goodness, where I live shots have been fired at poor doormen standing outside a pub! What kind of people are we talking about here? Hmmmmm?
Yes Dan,cryptic indeed.I have served up extra portions of mince and i can’t recall the post you refer to.Can you assist?
The rest of your gibberish is too cryptic for even a sober you to comprehend,but i would think about moving home.
When you sober up my son,get back to me with a translation of all aspects of your post and we can sort it out.
the irony of what you just posted is lost on you eh?
You know something pal,the more i look at your post the more it annoys me,,,is that some kind of a threat?
Yup,,maybe you can explain to my simple mind.
@Dan
Your last paragragh didn’t make sense to me. Often these are veiled threats. I am not saying it was so could you explain it, bear in mind that I am kind of middle aged and maybe slow in the uptake.
I think he had too much to drink and my wind ups got to him.Bam,stupid etc thats no problem,,,the rest of it? Daft wee boy talk.
@ Violet Carson
You are of course entitled to your opinions many of which I do not agree with but that is my right.
I feel there is little to be personally gained by myself and possibly by others to rehearse areas where you and I might disagree. All I will say is that I am well able to differentiate the absolute passion I have for Celtic, particularly during a game when it’s at its height, and hatred for opposing fans which I don’t ever have and have never experienced. If that makes me a ‘bad’ supporter well so be it. Have I been disgusted by other fans? Yes I have just like I’ve been disgusted by so-called Celtic fans.
Football to me is a bit of light relief – I enjoy the game pure and simple although I have to admit it has to be at a certain level because it’s the artistry and the magic I love. I will watch any team in any league in any country as long as they play good football. That’s the bit that turns me on. My life doesn’t revolve around football it is not the be all and end all of my existance and if perhaps that’s the reason I don’t hate opposition fans then that’s a very good thing IMHO.
I actually think in many ways there has been the start of a sea-change at clubs and an attempt by many to create a more family-friendly atmosphere which I think is the way to go. If we don’t change the game will actually die at a senior level although community clubs will remain and possibly thrive.
With regard to Rangers what about my post at:
ecojon November 29, 2012 at 7:13 pm.
Is there any hatred and bile there? I personally see it as a constructive piece but if there’s anything you disagree with then pls let me know and I will consider my position and respond.
I have a feeling that at next years Wimbledon there will be no plumbers or postmen in the quarter finals.
There is a good reason for that. Wimbledon is a world event, the competitive nature of it means that those wishing to succeed must leave dreams of plumbing or posting behind.
Scottish football is different. In spite of Rangers claims to be world record holders in terms of championships won. It’s a fairly small and parochial sequence of events.
It’s not an idea exclusive to Scotland, America has a world series in baseball. Alas most of the world is oblivious to it.
Few countries compete in the baseball world series, only one country’s teams compete for the Scottish league. I’m sure those that do can still end up as world records holders 🙂 Mad.
To make Scottish football better takes more than shuffling the pack, it takes removal of the blinkers.
For as long as being champions in Scotland and world record holders as a result of winning in Scotland remains the objective, we will only ever compete with each other.
The Olympic games have shown that those sports people who measure themselves against the world are not crazy, they can succeed.
We need to up our game to levels that other countries achieve whatever the format of our leagues if sporting excellence is a goal.
If this is not a goal then let the SFA /SPL/SFL come out and say it, we can play out our leagues with dwindling interest to suit.
At least we’ll know what we are are paying for.
For the record there is nothing wrong, in fact there is a lot to be said for participating in sport for fun and health benefits (I do it myself) . Then again I don’t expect anyone to watch me, far less to pay for the privilege.
To compete on the world stage, to be the best…well, there is magic in that.
@ Martin
I played football and hockey at school – many many moons ago – and was a decent sprinter. Probably swimming was my favourite hobby although tennis ran it very close. I was in the Scouts and became a patrol leader which was the first time in my life I had responsibility – very limited obviously – for other people.
Then along came the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award scheme and that was the start of my lifetime love of the mountains which luckily continues to this day although much more sensibly 🙂
I recognise the immense voluntary effort that teachers and ordinary punters put into creating my love for sport and although my participation was pretty wide I was never ever going to be a medal winner. I competed at school level in some of them but it wasn’t for victory but for sheer enjoyment. I often think that my football support attitude comes from that in the way that even when Celtic are beaten I can readily accept it as long as they gave it their all.
And to go back to the Olympics, Martin I think I can honestly say that no matter the event I don’t think I have ever watched any Olympic Games without wondering and dare I admit imagining that it was me on that podium.
It’s always Gold Medal position of course 🙂 and strangely I don’t think it’s because it would make me best in the world but more to satisfy some deep pride in me which is all intertwined with national pride and, as you say, the sheer magic of the moment which so few people ever experience. I’m usually crying by that stage as well 🙂
Unfortunately the utter dedication required takes a lot of cash and parental involvement in time and energy and there are so many kids automatically excluded because they live in poverty or lack parental support. That’s the kind of injustice I reserve hatred for – as well as the obscene injustice that sees people throughout the world die of hunger in their thousands every single day.
I cannot afford to squander any of my store of hatred to waste on football supporters no matter how annoying or irritating they might be. I have clear priorities in my life about what I consider to be the important things 🙂
Ecojon,
I’m glad that you shared your thoughts. The great thing is, we all share in the magic of sporting achievement.
I for one loved seeing the medalists stand on the podium at the Olympic games, it’s part of the human experience, empathy, profound and invigorating.
Empathy also with those who tried but fell short, more so in my case, no that’s silly, it’s probably the same for most people.
Truth is, Scottish football and football in general has lost something.
No one would reasonably claim that the Olympics were entirely pure, and yet football still seems to me at least to be a lesser sport in this regard.
Scottish football in particular seems to have lost it’s way.
Sporting excellence, achievement for it’s own sake is drowned out in a tidal wave of self interest and petty politics of the most awful kind.
Nothing to nurture the young spirit to reach for the stars and in so doing lift us all to new found joy.
@Martin
Whilst I agree entirely that the olympics were fantastic….Great Britains success was based on one thing and one thing only, the UK invested more money than other countries in sport over a prolonged period and ended up with more medals. The UK used to struggle at olympics until investment was made.
Scottish football is suffering as it has not had proper investment, in particular in youth development and will linger and deterioate further without vast investment in with a structure to grow….in reality its a 15-20 year project to truly reap the rewards, but self interest and old grudges are the order of the day in Scottish football, and with or without Rangers its just not going to happen. Anyone that expects the product to improve in this country is sadly mistaken…
@ Andy
I’m not so sure that it’s just about the investment levels – that is enormously important. But I think there are basic limiting factors like we have a small population to begin with and, especially with the advent of all sorts of electronic/internet based distractions, a reducing percentage of youngsters who can be bothered with being actively involved with the really hard grind required to participate in any sport.
But what I think is actually more damaging to football is the whole diversity of other sports that are available that never used to be. Everywhere you look there’s something new and more exciting physical activities for youngsters than playing football.
And I think society is changing a bit in that I think team games are actually being edged out in favour of sole participant sports. It’s all very complex but for a few years now I just feel that football is on a downward slide.
There are just so many youngesters I know involved in sports and activities which cover just about every letter of the aplhabet from A to Z but not football. Modern pressures just make it easier to organise your physical activity/training on an individual basis at a time that suits yourself rather than others.
Maybe I’m wrong but we do seem to be losing kids to football and if we are then we end up with a reducing pool of pysically active and gifted youngsters. And we don’t like to admit it but a lot of kids get discarded along the way in the football system and I wonder whether we should be doing that so lightly it seems.
And yet as a corollary, female football seems on the up so what’s the driver of that as if true it goes against my other arguments.
Andy,
Investment is a curious thing, sometimes.
Investment in competitors at the Olympic games is likely to produce better performances from the athletes that benefit from it. We’ve seen that.
Football as you know is different.
Whatever broad based investment there is in youth development it can never match the financial muscle and buying power of the big teams and big leagues.
There is no equivalence in Olympic sport.
Fact is if you want to make a living as a 400m runner, you’d better get world class good at it. There is no other way.
The money available to football players, in particular football players in England means you can make a living by being ‘not bad’.
Put some money into Scottish football (investment), the result is likely to be a few more expats.
Put a lot of money into Scottish football? We’ve seen that in the only way conceivable , Celtic and Rangers knocking their heads together to no great effect.
If Scottish football is to thrive it needs to work on the things that make it special.
There is a lot to be proud of, but TV and press has produced a generation of supporters who feel that anything in Scottish football that happens outside of the two big Glasgow teams is of no importance.
The whole concept of Scottish football has been undermined as a result.
did you put those smileys to break up paragraphs or annoy cam?
be honest lol
Ecojon
You missed out Apple Pie, Mom and kittens. To adapt Oscar Wilde, one would have to have a heart of stone not to laugh at your post. Give us a break.
Another anti Charles Green rant……Jeezo guys, how many times does the same thing need to be said….I really dont understand the meaning or the point of dissecting his latest interview……He has the ‘mob’ hanging off his every word, and what some people call the ‘silent majority’ like myself are not convinced….though what people forget is that you dont need to shout to be heard, and that actions will speak louder than words, when the time comes, if the prospectus and financials do not add up…..people will not invest…..if it comes to that, what would happen in that scenario is a mystery…
Having said that,Surely a more interesting point of law, would be in respect of the legal action that Murray Group has instigated against those that released confidential information in relation to the tax case….
Who are these people, why did this happen…..whats the chances of Murray Group winning any form of compensation?
Andy
Hmrc didn’t challenge The Murray Group based on leaked tax information. They pursued them because they believed the ebt scheme to be income rather than loans. Why do you care if Murray gets compensation? IMO this is PR generated righteous indignation, and will follow the path of the other .’actions’ which were prevalent during the summer eg d&p bbc and craigie.
‘ Who are these people’ is resonant of ally and if more rangers people had asked ‘ Why did this happen’ sooner and more frequently your club might not find itself in its present position.
An interesting post Paul, and one point that comes up for me is whether the inaccuracies in CG’s interview can be challenged through the Broadcasting Act requirement for TV to be fair and balanced. Are football team channels regulated via OfCom? So if something is presented as “news” but is clearly inaccurate, is it possible to seek redress for this? Normally programmes such as newsnight or the today programme require two different points of view.
As noted above, the STV article reports CG’s opinion and then very clearly states why it is incorrect. It would be hard for any RFC fan to disagree with the STV article, which is quite FAQtual!
BTW, I think Andy’s point about a post about SDM’s comments about investigating leaks would an interesting alternative view.
@ jacob1972
As pointed out I had a stab at it the other day as a response rather than a post.
But if you fancy a guest post why not put one together and submit it to Paul.
I can’t see that Rangers TV or indeed any similar private distribution network would be open to OfCom regulation and I can’t really see that they ever should be. There are obviously other legal requirements on them like defamation. But how could you report them for talking p*sh when even media actually covered by OfCom spout sh*te.
More info at: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/about/what-is-ofcom/
@Adam,
I don’t mean to contradict your viewpoint, but whilst it is perhaps some source of comfort to you to believe that what’s befallen Rangers (or rather, people’s attitude to what’s befallen Rangers) is due to hate fuelled Celtic fans, I can assure you it’s not.
I’m not a Celtic fan (when I goto football, you’ll find me at Broadwood), and my desire to see Rangers ‘punished’ (the media’s words, not mine) comes from a desire to see all teams treated equally. If you break the rules, then you live with the consequences – it’s what all teams signed up to. Yet despite this, Newco get a place in the league despite not having 3 years worth of audited accounts. Not only that, but the ‘membership’ that was meant to be transferred to them didn’t have 3 years worth either, yet they still got a place, AND STILL complain that they’re being persecuted. Give me a break!
The above doesnt help when it comes to sympathy from fans of other clubs, but I can cite one incident that may sum it up for you. My brother used to regularly go and see St Johnstone, and had the misfortune to find himself at Ibrox, on the wrong end of a 4-0 thrashing. St Johnstone pulled a goal back late in the game, and the fans that were left cheered the goal. The Ibrox announcer graciously summed it up by naming the goalscorer, and proceeded to describe it as ‘crumbs from his master’s table’.
@andy and Jacob1972
EcoJon covered it yesterday
Start with Murray first of all been questioned if he received £6m from an EBT and then ask yourself if he or his group are likely to be treated sympathetically in a compensation claim.
Public interest and public knowledge would also come into it given that the rainbow and geography production that the FTTT findings became isn’t a massively serious attempt at hiding the millionaires avoiding tax
@tykebhoy
But the issue here is the alleged illegal release of information that was confidential from hmrc offices….take away your/mine or anyone elses personal feelings on morality of it all….there is clearly a legal arguement to be had.
you mention public knowledge….where did this knowledge come from I wonder?
Its not about being treated sympathetically, its about applying the law, I thought the result of the big tax case would have taught folk that….
From HMRC offices? Really? Any proof of that? Despite valiant efforts by RFC and MIH not to “leak” the information to HMRC when there was a legal requirement so to do (see majority verdict of FTTT), do you know for a fact that RTC, STV and others did not source the information from MIH or RFC? Maybe you would also like to shackle the press much more than Leveson or do you agree that investigative journalists can bend a few rules when its in the public interest? Especially given hacks possibly already aware of the facts refuse to report on them for their own “confort”.
The public knowledge I referred to is from the FTTT findings. While some of the more obscure EBT recipients may have been sufficiently obfuscated it wouldn’t be too difficult to workout some of those painted a different colour or reloacated to northern English towns like Selby, Barrow or Furness.
Applying the law? It would almost certainly mean opening several cans of worms a lot of people would prefer remained closed. However to get a “sympathetic” hearing you have to be a credible witness (see Craig Whyte in the Tixaway case or Dave King). Credible witnesses don’t withold information. Also to be credible witnesses David Murray and MIH would have to admit that he and others benefited from tax AVOIDANCE on an industrial scale which in some cases was actually tax EVASION (see FTT majority verdict). An appeal to the Upper Tribunal or beyond may yet decide that Heidi Poon was correct and avoidance and evasion above can be reversed.
@Maggie i would hate to have an onslaught on anyone and JohnBhoy aint my lover pls… He hasn’t even offered dinner… Ok he does sound cute does he have a Kylie minogue mask????
Word on the tom toms is that without some shall we call adjustments HMRC had 21% of total at source debt, this has come from someone who knows the real figures, makes sense as to why the unresolved FTTT assessment was figured in something one of hectors seniors has assured me he has never heard of happening in his puff, why would it be if it wasn’t needed ?
Alex get yourself another satnav mate one to get you back from the moon…. You are like the daily record a day behind everyone else fella…!!! The calculations are not hard and have been out there on a number of sources (D&P for one)… Sounds like you are getting inside information too, care to give out hector’s senior leak? Pass that to Mr Murray.. I heard recently the moon was made of cheese, care to validate???
I am led to believe that once BDO become live after being confirmed on 3/12/12, there will be several blocks of green rancid cheese to be disposed of, prelims are already said to be under way in dismantling the figures that you so earnestly put your faith in.
So you have top level info that D&P got something wrong? Are you Lord Hodge? Craigie withheld circa £18m in VAT and NI payments (with the exception of NI “ers” collected from others on behalf of HMRC). On that alone all the remaining creditors would have to add up to £54m+ to approve a CVA (and that wasn’t the extent of debt, excluding the BTC, to HMRC). Yes Ticketus would have made up 50% of that required £54m but D&P then went to court to get a decision allowing them to ignore Ticketus as a creditor. Are you saying RFC(IL) owed over £54m to small businesses. About the only thing you can believe from Rangers TV is YES YOU ARE WATCHING DIVISION THREE FOOTBALL
So I am posting on the latest blog hoping to get some TDs and this gang are still on this one… Jeez!!!
Cam you need to send me some custom TRFC sites mate I can surely be more effective on those sites…
Just let Eco worry about childish thumbs,i’ll back 60% of your posts in blind faith,30% i’ll rip the p@sh out of and the others i shall book into my book of countless sorrows.
@Alex the only faith I have ever put in figures mate is that you are not 100% there fella… In fact I work with 47% statisticians or is it 78% who knows most are made up on the spot… Sorry that is bad but i do not rely on anything pro-anti rangers fella. Good to read your views..
@Cam cool dude. i like what you say 59% of the time those damned stats…He he .. Anyways if ye cannae have a laugh???
Glad it’s friday no more absinthe for me will talk to you my rangers pal and all the posters tomorrow…. Cam i will give you 20 TU’s if in your next post you say Hail Hail…! take care.. 🙂
Eco rocks, chico rocks, Micko rock (if he has a few spare pies), camo rocks
Ally looked out from the tunnel before the recent East Stirlingshire game,looked at the weather conditions,turned to Durranty and said look,,,hail,hail.
It took the physio 20 minutes to revive Durrant.
20 thumbs for me Jimbhoy!!
Observer.
Are you seriously going to use the comments section of an article about Rangers to assert that some Celtic fans are obsessed with Rangers?
Are you Alanis Morrisette?
Ecojon
You seemed to want me to critique one of your posts. I can’t be bothered looking for it. Can you re-produce it here and I will give you the opinion you seem to crave. Cam – you can add me to the list of Eco v XYZ, and I am not from the west nor am I a bluenose.
I will do exactly as you say Violet.
violet he isn’t craving your opinion just suggesting you give one given you arew accusing most posters on here of bile https://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/charles-green-on-how-the-big-tax-case-harmed-rangers-and-why-he-is-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-30903
I don’t think I am accusing most posters of bile viz “I have also read a number of posts on this site, which have all the elements of hate filled bile and here I am referring to both sides”. A long way I think from most posters. Ecojon’s post looks OK to me and it is very nice of you to ride shotgun for him.
@tykebhoy
You have missed the point completely!! Obviously I dont have any evidence, why would I, do you have any evidence to the contray?
SDM/MIH clearly feel that HMRC have breached a confidentiality clause in respect of infomration they gained from MIH.. and as such feel entitled to compensation.
This isnt about sympathy, its about whether HMRC acted illegally or not?
I dont think you or ecojon are in a position to sweep aside such serious allegations…..and as you were with the BTC, you may well be very wrong again. Seems to be a vice of many Celtic fans on here (I do stress not all)….jumping to conclusions without knowing the facts….and therefore remove themselves from the possiblity to enage in debate..
@budweiser
Its not that I care, its that its a legal arguement to be had, whilst just moaning about what Green says, is strange, given the sites name, no?
I never said that HMRC challenged Murray group based on leaked information, I am saying HMRC appear to have leaked information during the case, and individuals have chosen to publish….I would have concerns if an organisation such as HMRC were operating in this manner, regardless of who it was.
Andy you stated it as if fact that the leak came from HMRC (BTW the only confirmed leak we have is Adam’s contact who knew when RFC(IL) were going to publish their .(no laughing at the front, back……) accounts.)
If SDM (soon to lose the S we hope) and MIH feel the FTTT resul breached confidentiality then that is nothing to do with HMRC. BTW its a bit rich of anybody remotely connected to Rangers to accuse HMRC of illegality given MIH/RFC willfully and therore illegally withheld information which could have seen the FTTT settled some time ago and then later willfully and illegally held VAT and NI(ees)C monies collected from others on HMRC’s behalf and NI (ers)Cs they were liable for themselves.
Oh and before Violet jumps on the bile bandwagon. SDM was knighted predominantly for services to Scottish industry/business. What contribution was that. Helping in the demise of the bank in Scotland, indirectly screwing all the creditors of RFC by complete lack of due dilligence on Craigie, or helping some millionaires avoid some tax.
I am not sure about some of this and sprinkling the word ‘illegally’ around does no one any good. What has SDM ever done to you, surely it is for Andy and Cam etc. to be calling for action. Did he really help in the demise of BoS, I thought Lloyds took them over. And never wanting to let a bandwagon go by, some of your post is intemperate to say the least and all that ‘willfully and therefore legally’ might be actionable. Better go before the Police catch me, I have willfully left the front door open.
@tykebhoy
Stop telling lies…I HAVE NOT STATED ANYWHERE THAT IT WAS FACT!! I quite clearly in black and white, have said ‘alleged’!!! SDMMIH allege that HMRC leaked information that was deemed confidential..
What on earth do you not understand about that?
How HMRC got the information is irrelevant, at this point in time, if they releaxsed information that they knew was confidential then they have clearly acted inapproprialtely…
Its a bit rich of anyone to pass down judgement on a case that hasn’t even been heard, just because they dont like the person that has brought the case forward. grow up and take your green tinted glasses off!!
lies? I wonde what Vi’s reaction to that accusation will be(actually I don’t). Take off your own tinted spectacles. The information may have been leaked from HMRC but it certainly will not have been deliberate. But it certainly is more accurate then anything leaked deliberately or otherwise from the Govan area
I am reasonably sure that HMRC like most organisations will have individuals within it prepared to leak information. One could contrast this with “Oldco” who seemed to have tighter than a gnats proverbial when it came to supplying information under due process. As for Mr Green he is doing the Oldco / Newco , Hokey Cokey once more