CATHOLICS AND SECTARIAN CRIME: “HARDLY VICTIMS”? By JohnBhoy – Part 1

Steerpike, a fellow poster on Random Thoughts Re Scots Law, made a number of claims about Catholics and sectarianism. No one is accusing Steerpike of deliberately misinterpreting the data on sectarianism but what you are about to witness is the public demolition of Steerpike’s position, as it is dismantled piece by piece, until it lies in an incoherent heap and is confined to where it belongs: in the bin.

CLAIMS BY STEERPIKE

Steerpike makes two claims:

  1. That “the stats don’t lie, 16% of the population carry out 40% of sectarian crime”; and
  2. Catholics are “hardly victims”.

I will show both these statements to be false (he also makes a subsidiary claim that “it is Catholics who are more likely to victimize a Protestant than the other way round”, but this is dependent on his first claim being true).

BACKGROUND INFORMATION

Sectarianism is associated with “religious prejudice” and is covered under the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003, which makes it an offense under section 74 of that Act to show “malice or ill-will” towards members of a “religious group, or of a social or cultural group with a perceived religious affiliation”. This is the main legislation under which someone is charged with religiously aggravated crime.

The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012 also covers religious prejudice but widens the remit to include other forms of prejudice, such as racism, homophobia and prejudice against those with a disability. The Offensive Behaviour Act criminalises behaviour that is “threatening, hateful or otherwise offensive” and is likely to incite public disorder: Section 1 covers offensive behaviour at football and Section 6 covers threatening communications (including the Internet). This Act is controversial because it now brings political expression, and other areas of free speech, within the reach of the long arm of the law.

So, it is perfectly acceptable for someone to oppose religion, or a particular religion, but if they behave in a manner, in words or deeds, that shows “malice or ill-will” or is “threatening, hateful or otherwise offensive” then they are making themselves vulnerable to prosecution.

Sectarianism is primarily dealt with under section 74 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003 but could also be tackled through the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012. That is why sometimes the Scottish government refers to the blight of “sectarianism and offensive behaviour”. Some crimes of a religiously aggravated nature appear under the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012, as shown above, and are covered in the report Hate Crime in Scotland 2012-2013 (Crown Office & Procurator Fiscal Service:http://www.crownoffice.gov.uk/media-site/latest-news-from-copfs/327-hate-crime-in-scotland-2012-13) but alleged religious denomination of the victims is not revealed. The main authoritative report on sectarian crime as religious prejudice is the annual report Religiously Aggravated Offending in Scotland, produced by the Scottish Government Social Research unit.

There is a further complication in that Steerpike bases his claims on a report that is out-of-date. Steerpike referred to the report Religiously Aggravated Offending in Scotland 2011-2012 (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0040/00408745.pdf). The Scottish government has published the figures covering the period 2012-2013 for religiously aggravated crime (Religiously Aggravated Offending in Scotland 2012-2013: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00424865.pdf). This article, for comparative purposes, will use the figures from the report that Steerpike used  – the 2011-2012 report – but will also show that his claims are still false when applied to the more recent report.

In terms of religious denomination, the 2001 census reveals the Scottish population at that time was 5,062,011. Of those, 803,732 (16%) were Catholics, while 2,146,251 (42%) defined themselves as Church of Scotland. While the census did not allow for “Protestant” to be a religious option (using CofS instead), statistics recording religiously aggravated crime use the term “Protestant”. If one equates “Protestant” to “Church of Scotland” then in 2001 there were 2,146,251 Protestants in Scotland. A significantly large slice of the Scottish population – 28% – had no religious affiliation.

There was an updated report in 2008: The Scottish Household Survey. As reported by Professor Callum Brown, a leading academic on Religious and Cultural History at the University of Dundee, the Church of Scotland denomination dropped from 42% to 35% and Catholic “identification remained stable” (http://www.scotsman.com/news/letter-declining-faith-1-1523942).

The 2011 census (http://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/documents/censusresults/release2a/StatsBulletin2A.pdf) gives the most recent figures on religious denomination within Scotland.  The  Scottish population was calculated at 5,295,403. The Catholic percentage stayed at 16%; the Church of Scotland population fell to 32%; and those describing themselves as non-religious jumped to 37%, the largest group in Scotland. These percentages translate into the following population figures:

Church of Scotland 32% of 5,295,403 = 1,694,528
Catholic 16% of 5,295,403 = 847,264
Non-religious 37% of 5,295,403 = 1,959,299

 

ANALYSIS: CLAIM 1 –

“The stats don’t lie, 16% of the population carry out 40% of sectarian crime”

For the avoidance of doubt I will repeat, verbatim, Steerpike’s claim: “the stats don’t lie, 16% of the population carry out 40% of sectarian crime”. There are no statistics to show that “16% of the population carry out 40% of sectarian crime”. This “statistic” does not appear in any government publication. Steerpike is equating the 16% to Catholics and the 40% to Protestants: “To put the 40/16 percentages into perspective, Catholics are punching two and half times their weight, and this tells me the toxic influence…”

For Steerpike’s claim to be true then 16% of the Scottish population must have committed, in the period for which we have reliable data, religiously aggravated crime and, further, they must be Catholic. The 2011 census recorded the population of Scotland standing at 5,295,403, of which 16% represents a figure of 847,264. Coincidentally this figure represents the Catholic population. Were 847,264 religiously aggravated crimes committed in Scotland and were Catholics the offenders?

The statistics on religiously aggravated crime – from the Religiously Aggravated Offending in Scotland 2011-2012 report used by Steerpike – shows that the total number of religiously aggravated crimes amounted to 876 (the figures add up to more than 876 because some conduct was directed at more than one religion). Here are the main findings in tabular form:

2011-2012 Number of

attacks against

Number as

a % of attacks

Roman Catholicism 509 58.1%
Protestantism 353 40.3%
Islam 19 2.2%
Judaism 14 1.6%
Christianity (general) 3 0.3%
Unknown 2 0.2%

 

The report reveals that there were 876 charges of which 509 (58.1%) were against those believed to be Catholic by the alleged attacker (i.e. “Catholics” were the victims) and 353 (40.3%) were against those believed to be Protestant by the alleged attacker (i.e. “Protestants” were the victims). Steerpike’s claim is immediately false because there were 876 main charges of religiously aggravated crime, not 847,264, irrespective of the religious status of the offender.

Let’s put this into perspective. There were 876 religiously aggravated charges in a country containing 5,295,403 citizens. That means that 876/5,295,403 X 100 = 0.0165% of the population were charged with committing religiously aggravated crime. Of those 876 offences, 353 (40%) were against Protestantism. The percentage of the population therefore responsible for 40% of religiously aggravated crime in that period was 353/5,295,403 X 100 = 0.0066%. That means that 0.0066% of the population “carry out 40% of sectarian crime”. In reality some of those committing sectarian crime would have been charged under the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012 but the majority of charges for religious prejudice are brought under the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003. In addition, Steerpike should be talking about “charges” and not assume that all those charged were convicted.

For argument’s sake, let’s assume that all those charged were convicted and for emphasis let’s contrast Steerpike’s false claim against the statistically accurate position (focusing on the stats from the report he uses):

“16% of the population carry out 40% of sectarian crime”;

“0.0066% of the population carry out 40% of sectarian crime”.

Steerpike was wrong to claim that “16% of the population carry out 40% of sectarian crime” but it is quite a dramatic shift in emphasis and impact from the real figure (even assuming that all those charged were found guilty) – 16% of the population down to approximately 0.0066%.  In fact, the real number is so small that it is almost impossible to detect on a comparative graph:

Graph 1

The more recent report on religiously aggravated crime – Religiously Aggravated Offending in Scotland 2012-2013 – gives the number of those charged with religious prejudice at 687, of which 388 (56.5%) were against Catholicism and 199 (29%) were against Protestantism. Applying Steerpike’s logic to these updated figures would give the following statement (let’s call it a “Steerpike”): “the stats don’t lie,16% of the population carry out 29% of sectarian crime” [meaning Catholics against Protestants].

Is that true? 16% of the population is 847,264, coincidentally the size of the Catholic population. 29% of sectarian crime was recorded at 199. Clearly 847,264 people did not commit 199 acts of religiously aggravated prejudice. 16% of the population did not carry out 40% of sectarianism crime in 2011-2012, as he claimed, nor did 16% of the population carry out 29% of sectarian crime in 2012-2013.

Let’s find out anyway what percentage of the population carried out 29% of the sectarian crime in 2012-2013. The percentage of population that carried out 29% of sectarian crime = 199/5,295,403 X 100 = 0.0037%. Here is the correct statement: “the stats don’t lie, 0.0037% of the population carry out 29% of sectarian crime”.

That’s as far as Steerpike can go. He can only claim that in 2011-2012, “the stats don’t lie, 0.0066% of the population carry out 40% of sectarian crime (against those they believe to be Protestant)” and that in 2012-2013, “the stats don’t lie, 0.0037% of the population carry out 29% of sectarian crime (against those they believe to be Protestant)”. He cannot claim to know that Catholics are responsible for this crime. Why not? That question is answered in the next section.

WHY NOT?

The Police charge sheets and case files do not record the religion of either the accused or the victim. From the descriptions contained in the Police records the government researchers only attempted to deduce the religion that was attacked by the accused. The annual report on religiously aggravated crime – the very one read by Steerpike – goes out of its way to emphasise this very point: “The religious beliefs or affiliations of the accused or the victims of the offence are not formally recorded anywhere in the report as they are not relevant to the definition of the crime in the law” (Religiously Aggravated Offending in Scotland 2011-2012, p. 13).

Let’s be absolutely clear. The police did not formally record the religious status of the victim or the accused. It is not required for a prosecution. The researchers did not even attempt to deduce the religious status (Catholic, Protestant, non-religious, etc.) of the accused. What the researchers did was very simple: from the Police records and the description of the incident the researchers extracted the religion that the accused thought was associated with the victim. The research upon which Steerpike bases his claims focused purely on the religion under attack. There was no empirical data about the religion of the accused. They may have been Catholic, Protestant, non-religious, etc. No one knows.

That is why there are no statistical tables on any government report showing percentage figures related to the religious status of the attacker. That is why there is no government statistic that claims “16% of the population carry out 40% sectarian crime” (meaning Catholics) or that “it is Catholics who are more likely to victimize a Protestant than the other way round”. No one knows what percentage of any population group carried out what percentage of sectarian crime against particular religions.

For Steerpike to apportion blame for the incidences of religiously aggravated crime he would need to have access to data, and related statistics, that identifies the religious persuasion, or non-religious status, of the accused. No one has recorded that data. Steerpike therefore cannot make any claim about the religious affiliation of those responsible for the sectarian crime. Anything else is pure speculation on his part.

That is why Steerpike cannot allocate a percentage figure – 40% or any other number – against any of the religions for the sectarian crime committed and that is why he cannot support his inflammatory subsidiary claim that “it is Catholics who are more likely to victimize a Protestant than the other way round”. He does not know the religious status of the attacker and has no empirical data upon which to make such a claim.

He may consider that it is “obviously” Catholics that are always hostile to Protestants and vice versa. That position is statistically untenable without the data, even though the two main religious groups targeted are Catholics and Protestants. For example, a Rangers fan could find himself the subject of an abusive tirade about being a “dirty H** b*****d” etc. by a Celtic fan and the Celtic fan might not be a Catholic. Given that many of the charges were for religiously aggravated crime against the Police, the situation could easily have arisen where a (Protestant) Police Officer was verbally abused as a “dirty F****n b*****d” by a Protestant. One cannot simply assume the religious status of the accused based on the religion that is under attack. Someone might declare a hatred of all “Irish Catholics, even dead ones” but to assume that the person making the hateful remark is Protestant may be false – he/she might have no religious affiliation at all. No one is claiming that these examples fall within the definition of sectarian crime – that would be for others to determine – but at the very least they show that the finger of blame for expressed hostility towards a particular religious group cannot be pre-determined.

Although this article is on the issue of crime related to religious prejudice, it is worth commenting that The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012 casts its net wider than the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003, including for example offensive behaviour against disability. Steerpike, for instance, commented of another poster “… I am convinced you are a spastic…” When others expressed outrage at the idea that someone can equate those who suffer from cerebral palsy with an insult, his “apology” was equally disgraceful: “I am an intelligent, level headed, logical person who never posts nonsense, my post is highlights the need for forgiveness, and I forgive coatbrig for being an utter spastic.” On the receipt of any complaint it would be for the Police to decide if that comment breaches The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012, but when it has been pointed out to someone that others find their behaviour grossly offensive and they choose to repeat their conduct then that would hinder a claim of unintentional offense. Worse, he confirmed his intention to cause offense: “It was supposed to be an offensive slur, I used it in its correct context.”

Returning to Steerpike’s claims about Catholics, he has also ignored the expected statistical contribution from the non-religious group and that is a major failing on his part, and they form 37% of our population. He seems to have looked at the figure of 353 racially aggravated attacks on Protestants, assumed Catholics to be at fault (without any evidence), observed that the number 353 is 2.5 times that expected from a Catholic population (2.5 X 140 is approx. 353) and then arrived at his unsupported conclusion that Catholics are responsible for “40% of sectarian crime” and “it is Catholics who are more likely to victimize a Protestant than the other way round”. Without government data on the religious status of the accused, Steerpike cannot make any claim at all about what who is victimising whom outwith normal statistical forecasts. He therefore has no evidential basis on which to claim “it is Catholics who are more likely to victimize a Protestant than the other way round” because there is no evidence either way. All that we have is data about the intended victims.

There is a further dimension to Steerpike’s false claim, particularly when conjoined with his jibe that Catholics are “hardly victims”. He is not only claiming, without any evidence, that it is Catholics who are responsible for all religiously aggravated crime against Protestants, he is also claiming, without any evidence, that it is the whole Catholic population that is responsible for the such crimes against Protestants.

For the avoidance of doubt I will quote him word for word: “16% of the population CARRY OUT [my emphasis] 40% of sectarian crime”. This is a view that he repeats regularly: “As I said, 16% of the population ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR [my emphasis] 40% of sectarian crime… hardly victims in my mind”, etc. The percentage of Catholics in Scotland is 16% and he clearly states that it is 16% of the population who “carry out 40% of sectarian crime”; “are responsible for 40% of sectarian crime”, etc. He is not even referring to 16% of the Catholic population, which in itself would still be wildly inaccurate. He is clearly maligning the whole Catholic community: “16% of the population carry out 40% of sectarian crime”. It is a defamatory slur against the Catholic community and one he should retract immediately.

Steerpike’s claim that “the stats don’t lie,16% of the population carry out 40% of sectarian crime” is clearly wrong and has been proved to be so. We know the percentage of the population that carried out 40% of sectarian crime in 2011-2012 (it is 0.0066%), not 16%. He was also wrong to assume that he knew the religion of those accused of sectarian crime: he does not. He was also wrong to blame the whole Catholic population for the sectarian crime committed against Protestants.

No one knows what percentage of the various disparate population groups are responsible for sectarian crime: we only know the percentage of intended victims.

Posted by JohnBhoy

Part 2 to follow tomorrow morning

Advertisements

364 Comments

Filed under Guest Posts, Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Bill

364 responses to “CATHOLICS AND SECTARIAN CRIME: “HARDLY VICTIMS”? By JohnBhoy – Part 1

  1. steerclear

    If 16% of the population are Catholic, what percentage of the Judiciary are swung towards the COS….? Surely this is a point to be considered in view of say, how a peaceful protest down the Gallowgate in the lead up to a Celtic game resulted in Police intimidation tactics compared to say, um….I don’t know….uhh….a stream of military personnel –in full view of their superiors in the directors box at Ibunx– doing the Bouncy and singing Loyalist ‘party’ tunes with thousands of other law breakers in the stands? How many were arrested under the new legislation that day? hmmmmmmm?

  2. Eastside

    So to sum up today’s Sevconian news:

    Setanta expose the ‘Same Club’ lie by ignoring Deidco as a creditor, confirming that it is indeed legally and factually deid.

    The SPL expose the ‘Same Club’ lie by its refusal to contest Setanta’s decision, despite representing SPL CLUBS and not companies who own Clubs.

    Sevco expose the ‘Same Club’ lie by its refusal to contest Setanta’s decision, despite insisting that they are a continuation of Rangers Football Club.

    Nacho Novo is exposed as a racist bigot by himself when he is shown to have made a racist and bigotted comment on Twitter.

    Craig Mather and Blinky Stockbridge are desperately scrambling around begging for investment they are adamant they don’t actually need.

    For more laughter and disgust tune in tomorrow to The Only Way Is Sevconia!

    • JimBhoy

      good post fella

    • willy wonka

      @eastside. Rangers are not “legally and factually deid.”. The company taken into liquidation have not been liquidated. Therefore they are very much still alive.

    • Gedy Lee.

      I am amazed none of them are challenging Setanta’s position, considering the dramatic outbursts against the likes of Spence.

      Then again, they haven’t said a thing to the likes of Traynor and “Walter”. Both of them have insisted in the past that the old rangers are dead.

      Time for the NUJ to demand an official ruling from the cringing SFA on the matter. Then again, the “Silence of the bams” speaks volumes.

      It’s the usual, head in the sands stance, until it all dies down.

  3. josephmcgrath112001809

    Lots of abuse and anger here lads. Lighten up. A joke is a joke but tempers spoil the fun.

  4. cam

    Dave King possibly wanting to enter the ring will enrage the bhoys,,,brilliant.
    Just think what a man worth 400 rhino hides and 6000 acres of prime jungle could bring to the might magnificent Glasgow Rangers?

    A wee bottle of South African plonk is being opened.

  5. @ steerpike ‘the bhoys are doing an awful lot of ignoring me, not”…. the problem with that is ,it;s a bit like standing on dog crap, you have to address the problem or the smell will not go away……

    sorry to disappoint you smearpike, but one thing in any of my dealings with you the only time I’ve felt embarrassment is for yourself. You have shape shifted so many times your forgetting what your original position was. Your now relegating the potency of your own assertion that Catholics pose more of a threat to Protestants by saying the statistics your relying on are merely fractions…… ????
    Further, what does it matter whether If I’m from outside “Your country”…..does the opinions of outsiders have no relevance? is this an exhibition of the petty parochialism of the peepel? Do you have a problem with foreigners to add your collection of vindictive traits?
    “i am never wrong”……..a mantra of yours, Anyone who thinks that of themselves is declaring to the world that they have some sort of disorder, some sort of personality malfunction, Steerpike you have been wrong so many times it is now not a laughing matter, Of course you will consider any advice with contempt. For what it’s worth you can spare yourself any further ridicule by admitting that you have f****** up, & joining the realm that the mere mortals inhabit. But I suspect, in fact know you will pursue your self destructive, bull in a china shop w*nkerism, you don’t quite have the wit to know when your a beaten man.
    Ho Hum…………..your call.

    • Steerpike

      Morning mac,

      How dare you insist I have been wrong many times and I never surrender my position, my premise stands, there is little anti-Irish Catholic ethos in Scotland and the stats prove this, Catholics are more likely to attack Protestants and the stats prove this. I suggest when a discussion involves the cultural traits of a country one must reside there to have any input on the topic, how else can one know?

      I am really not interested what foreigners think is going on in Scotland, their opinion is uninformed and lacks substance.

      Anyone who claims my premise is flawed based on the fact the religion of the offenders was not noted is on drugs, you are only a tim to a proddy and you are only a proddy to a tim, you are not a proddy or tim to any other section of society.

  6. cam

    This was supposed to be the hangmans blog for Niall but like Houdini he escaped with consumate ease and now JB is inside the tank gasping for air,his followers have done a green seat brigade.
    Part Deux is nervously awaited,can this(hopefully shorter) literary masterpiece shore up JB’s shaky foundations?
    Niall has thrown a saddle onto JB and is tightening the harness,,,jeez i can’t handle the suspenders.

    • mick

      A think its time to listen to Eco and cut rear pipes oxygen the more we comment about him the more he gos on although most sevco fans on here are anti Irish and RC there is something more sinister about rear pipe so for this reason lets blank him and stay focused on the sevco board globe trotting with the begging bowl

    • Part 2 to come tomorrow cam,……” he escaped with consumate ease”…. ???
      I would say he’s sweating like a bag of semtex, The desperate & deluded rarely know when the gigs up even if they are experiencing severe discomfort. Reminds me of Rangers going pear shaped. Everybody saw it coming except yer poor old selves…… haw haw haw.

    • JimBhoy

      nah he is a well not great and Cam you cannot defend that (as I see you fella)

  7. JimBhoy

    @Steerpike,my mate who is a mental specialist in Carstairs thinks you are losing it buddy!!

  8. cam

    Jeez its been staring me right in the face!

    Niall i know how you can be totally forgiven by all the bhoys in here.
    See Father Ted and confess your sins,,,,simples.

    Ted is licensed to conduct marriages on the Renfrew Ferry and has reportedly blessed a partnership between a labrador and some arsehole in St Andrews.

    Repent and be forgiven,Monti will baptise you.

  9. JimBhoy

    OK so here it fekin goes Dave King’s blazer is too tight now he has settles a 10 year tax bill. the genuine, impeccable, honest man he is… Weir pumps into SA he took over the deals for his own company, i know the history..

    Great guy for rangers..Another joke figure who wants a blazer and a way to either have a toy or to siphen money thru

  10. cam

    Haud oan lads,,,, i was checking back to the start of this for some poor sucker to annoy and JB is getting the polis tae Niall!!
    Best behaviour from now on my fellow fitba fans and fine catholic gents.
    I think that the Tic are a truly marvellous team and green has always been my favourite colour.
    Oh its a grand old team to play for,,,,,,,

  11. Raymilland

    Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2449235/Were-ready-lift-alcohol-ban-Scottish-grounds-says-SFA-President-Campbell-Ogilvie.html

    Progressive thinking or just another misconception by our leader?

    • cam

      Lawwell wanted it and there were no negative comments.Does the name Ogilvie get your heart racing Ray?

    • cam

      Lawwell wants it,gets onto the SFA board and now Mr Ogilvie is talking about it,,,,,hmmmm?

      • Raymilland

        @cam

        Eat yer greens for part two.

        Ogilve Oyl? A big streak of pish!

        “That’s all I can stands, cuz I can’t stands n’more!”

        A-gah-gah-gah-gah-gah-gah!

      • Raymilland

        @cam

        Lawwell’s your biggest ally.

        Pete n’ Campbell – The Old Firm – personified.

        If anyone can steer things back to ‘normal’, it’s those two.

  12. BB

    People aren’t banged up for not wearing a poppy nor should they be. A pretty lame example if you ask me. Strange even. ‘Probe’. You’ve got them, whoever they are….guilty already. There’s that lack of natural justice I first mentioned. It’s full circle. Crikey, even David Livingstone is getting it! We’ll leave it there.

  13. cam

    in other news;
    The disgraceful bid to power Monti’s mobile phone, so he can still play at republican sojies is just a step too far.
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/protesters-hit-out-at-st-andrews-wind-farm-plan-1-3130034

    The amount of methane produced by this imbecile makes this completely unnecessary.

  14. Fra

    Cams lost his humour
    DeNialls been ridiculed
    Willys still a bigot
    Violets back to show the rest
    Carson’s in the closet
    Dcotw’s loses it on occasion
    Bobs a sevconian (nasty word)
    …………..
    and David’s still screaming at the moon. Whooooooooooooooh

    Guffaw guffaw guffaw

    • willy wonka

      Did you figure all that out yourself Fra ? That’s quite bright for a guy who thinks Rangers won league titles before any league had been formed !
      Lol.

  15. Ian4300

    BB
    October 8, 2013 at 12:19 am
    The new is in the old concealed. The old is in the new revealed. An interwoven tapestry Ian. You are blinded because of sin. Doesn’t have to be so. Read it. Open your eyes.’If you seek me, with all your heart, you shall surely find me’. TRUTH.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Ian4300
    October 8, 2013 at 1:30 am
    WHO wrote that BB?

    Jewish History was taken to justify a modern Cult by a ROMAN Emperor. who used it to control the people.

    The rest is written long AFTER the death of Jesus & put together to suit Constantine’s requirements.

    Mathew, Mark Luke & John were selected from literally HUNDREDS of gospels from different communities. St Paul rewrites jesus & actually claims some of the changes came from DREAMS.. .

    All that stuff you have just written is junk.

    It has no provenance.

    I have no interest in deriding your belief, but don’t try & quote it as an answer… Disagreeing with you is NOT a sin.

    There is no tapestry between the old & the new.

    The Old is JEWISH & ongoing.

    The new has been chopped & changed to suit Emperors,Popes & Monarchs & that’s before the clergy put their oar in… AND… Lay preachers of course.

    It has all been distorted to suit various viewpoints..

    The earth is NOT 6,000 years old & The rapture is a modern invention by John Darby in the 1830′s, yet ANOTHER guy who rewrote things to suit his own ideas.

  16. Fisiani

    Cam the Bam and Smearpike desperately try to deflect and divert attention away from the slow train wreck that is Ibrokes. Today they lost 38,000 pounds, They did that yesterday and will do so again tomorrow and every day. It is not a bottomless pit. They have no credit facilities. They will go bust eventually unless they find a mug that that wants to give away hard earned millions to keep the gravy train rolling a few more months. They hope they have found a mug in South Africa.
    The spivdom at Ibrokes is a classical money grabbing asset stripping con job that will soon render shares as worthless as the last ones. It is a classical get rich quick scheme that benefits the few and impoverishes the rest. No wonder the spin merchants try to obfuscate.

    • Steerpike

      Fisiani,

      Can you please demonstrate how Rangers are losing 38k per day, and are you suggesting they will be bust by Christmas?

      • Arb urns

        Surely u can work out what he is doing…… Here’s a clue your fixed surplus cash flow forecast is ‘oot the windae’.. Craig and Brian don’t believe you anymore either and are consulting with dave if it’s going to be a ‘ Whyte’ Christmas… F has you spending £2.964m more than u bring in Pre Christmas so there will be some stocking fillers left at Yuletide but setanta won’t be comin down the lum…. There ‘demonstrated’ for you pleased to keep you on track after your 75% near miss on the losses…..

      • willy wonka

        Steerpike, I can smell the burning wood as he tries to work out how to answer you.
        Lol.

  17. Monti

    ” Then I went North to Scotland, to Glasgow on the Clyde,
    I met with some young lads, said Celtic is our side”
    “Though born here in this land, my heart is in Ireland
    The land of the old folk,is calling to me”.
    God bless the Irish in Scotland, England & across the world!
    WE ARE THE PAPAL!

  18. Monti

    @Dcotw
    It is clear you have a complete intolerance of the Irish race, Catholics & Irish Catholics.
    If someone was on here with French lineage & regularly Celebrating France & it’s history would you be as offended as you are when I talk of the Irish?
    I know the answer, but over to you?

  19. Pingback: CATHOLICS AND SECTARIAN CRIME: “HARDLY VICTIMS”? By JohnBhoy – Part 2 | Random Thoughts Re Scots Law by Paul McConville

  20. Monti

    RANGERS DEATH CERTIFICATE:
    Date: 25/05/1967.
    Location: Estoril, Lisbon, Portugal.
    Cause of Death: Celtic 2 Inter Milan 1.

    Signed. J.Stein.

    • Lex McLean

      That’s strange, a week after this death certificate most of the Celtic players with Jock were cheering on the Rangers as they too played a European final. Wee Jinky even wore his Rangers strip.

      When Scottish football was a European force there was mutual support and respect which seems to be missing now. A major reason for the decline in Scottish football.

      As a Rangers. supporter I ( and all my mates) can still recite the names of the Celtic team who won that great night.

      Those were the best years shortly to be brought to an end by thugs and bigots.

  21. Fisiani

    When the end comes it will not come by an arithmetic subtraction of 38,000 till we reach zero. The spivs will accelerate their rapaciousness to suck the marrow dry by awarding themselves fees and bonuses. Can they possibly con 36,000 people to pay for season tickets for a season they will never complete? If so then they are con artists of the highest order.

  22. Monti

    ” FROM THE HILLS OF KERRY
    TO THE STREETS OF FREE DERRY
    THIS LAND WAS MADE FOR YOU AND ME”
    ERIN GO BRAGH!

  23. Arb urns

    Oh Charlotte Charlotte on the wa’
    Is the 5 way stopping gers kickin the setanta baw
    Or are they a new club after aw’….

  24. Steerpike

    I see I have outed yet another expert on Scottish culture who does not even live here, wonder where Johnbhoy lives?

    Is it a coincidence the posters who do not share cam’s humor and hate me seem to consist mostly of people from over the water, remember what I was saying about the toxicity being imported into Scotland.
    Protestants and Catholics on the island of Ireland do not see the funny side of their dispute nor do they accept these attitudes are now foreign to a modern Scotland.

    I know this sounds crazy but both sides seem to think the OF’ fan’s attitudes are right at the centre of Scottish society, seemingly we have nothing better to think about than what religion folks are, or what political position on a foreign country.one holds!!

    Here is the bad news for all you folks on the island of Ireland, we have two very large gangs of thugs, and I mean gangs, these two groups of men do not need politics or religion to be anti-social, both would abuse out of sheer football rivalry. Those that try to demonise one side and romanticise the other are doing my country no service, they are both two gangs intent on anti-social behaviour, nothing but an extension of thuggery.

    It is no secret men like to form peer groups and they like to compete against other groups, it is our competitive chimp genes, football thuggery is nothing more complex than hunter-gather tribalism going on raiding parties to feel good about themselves and to get an adrenalin rush.
    The problem is society has moved on and we have adopted the mantra ” love thy neighbor “, there is no place for these neanderthals and there is certainly no romance.

    • Eastside

      That would make sense, if you were not one of the main posters to constantly and aggressively comment and rant toxicity regarding politics and religion. You disprove your own theory.

    • Hunter Gatherer,
      Niall Walker went on a hunting and gathering expedition, he hunted down his mothers dinner gathered it up but got caught before he could escape, low life caveman.
      Niall Walker,ex accountant, if your reading this,Grow up, go to a shop and buy your own food, stop stealing sick old ladies dinners.

  25. Raymilland

    Dave King……who’s next, Martin Bain, Sir David Murray or next up for Knight of the Realm – Campbell Ogilvie?

    With songs and sketches and comedy too –
    So come with us and you won’t feel blue!

    So meet the gang ’cause the boys are here –
    The boys to entertain you!
    B-O-Y-S – boys to entertain you!

  26. blackwatertown

    Most important in Scotland as elsewhere – a bit of tolerance. http://wp.me/pDjed-1Ed

  27. It would seem from all the news in the media the only song appropriate just now is BYE BYE NEWCO…its coming AGAIN.

  28. Niall

    Good man. Cam – you always knew that. Carson – a sinner that repenteth, see above re. Niall. But it’s still OK to bad mouth Monti

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s