More Thoughts on Scots Independence – by Falloch and (Again) by Winston Smith

Winston Smith’s post yesterday has provoked some reaction, as I thought it might.

Winston himself has provided a lengthy follow-up piece, but first I want to offer you Falloch’s opinion in which he goes through Winston’s piece and comments on it. Falloch’s comments are in bold.

I will see you at the end of Falloch’s comments in time to introduce Winston’s further words of wisdom.


“I’m not a football fan and I generally wish you would all concentrate on more important issues. But, I have to say, there is a sense that Celtic’s victory last night was one of those special historic moments. It’s a great result for Scotland too and goes beyond football.”

What a way to warm up your audience, put them on the back foot immediately with a little patronising. The first sentence is a bit wordy though Winston, you could have shortened it to “Halfwits, listen to me!”

Sport does indeed occasionally reach out past its own sphere, unfortunately though more often than not this is the result of politicians attempting to utilise it for their own ends (Salmond and his Saltire at Wimbledon, anyone?). However, I’m honestly not sure that last night was one of those occasions, as great as it was. I really do not believe that the result and Celtic’s subsequent inclusion in today’s UEFA Champions League draw (Barca again!) has had, or will have any effect, profound or otherwise on Scottish society other than very happy Celtic supporters.
The result (not the game itself, because you don’t subject yourself to anything so trivial) may have enticed you to put down “Lanark” for a moment or two, but I think that’s the extent of it.

“Little wonder then that Rangers fans are hurting today. They hurt because they have separated themselves from Scotland. Rangers fans revel in Scotland’s failures nowadays, not our successes. Just recently on a Rangers forum, for example, I was shocked to read that a majority of them wished England success in a football game against Scotland.”

If The Rangers Football Club Plc fans are hurting at all, it is due to the competitive nature, at varying levels, scope and intensity, of the relationship they have with Celtic fans. I would be doubtful if Scottish identity plays a part, primarily because I think most of them castigate Celtic and Celtic fans for being Irish and not Scottish/British (manifest in the songs they apparently STILL sing), whether the fans or the club have claimed such an identity or not.

Indeed, what about those fans that would support the Irish national football team in a match against Scotland, would you be “shocked” at this betrayal of Scotia? You say “we aspire to be tolerant of varying faiths, religions, and cultures”, yet you seem fairly intolerant of support for the English football team from anyone living or born in Scotland.

You probably are not aware, seeing as you are not a football fan (why would you be!), but a Scottish-born ex-Celtic player was continually verbally abused at football grounds the length and breadth of the country for having the temerity to choose the Irish national team over the Scottish national team. Are you aware that the largest minority in Scotland is the English? We are in the realms of birth, blood and belonging here, and unfortunately accents identify a man as being different before his attackers ask him where he was born – you can ask the many English people who are verbally and physically assaulted on the streets of Scotland.

In your analysis that fans of The Rangers Football Club Plc “have separated themselves from Scotland”, you reveal the dark Janus-faced nationalism which a lot of people fear, leading them to wonder that if a ‘Yes’ vote is achieved next September, how will all those who voted ‘No’ be treated?

You ask us (Celtic fans) to put aside our historical grievances: firstly, I’m not sure that ALL Celtic fans do have historical grievances, but those of an Irish nationalist persuasion certainly can’t proclaim their political beliefs (yes, some football fans think of things other than football, who knew eh?!) for fear of prosecution thanks to legislation passed by the current Scottish nationalist government.

“Celtic fans need to understand that there is a growing rejection of what Rangers stood for, all across Scotland. Proof of that is there for all to see, in the groundswell of opposition to Rangers being crowbarred into the SPL last year, in voting trends, in football forums up and down the country, on the streets and in coffee shops — almost everywhere.”

I’m unsure as to how voting trends show a rejection of Unionism (I’m assuming that is what you mean by “what Rangers stood for”). Obviously the vote for the Conservatives has been steadily dropping since the late 1980s, although it has maintained at circa 500,000 for the past few general and local council elections. It is well documented that there are people voting for the SNP who don’t want independence, and those who vote for unionist parties that do. It could be argued The Rangers Football Club Plc also stood/stand for the neo-liberal model of using other people’s money to generate private wealth, and it can be construed that both Salmond and Swinney are keen devotees of that doctrine due to their contention that an indy Scotland would/should be able to borrow on the international financial markets due to the strength of the oil reserves.

What about the connection between the SNP and Jim McColl (Scotland’s most successful entrepreneur according to the SNP, and keen advocate of the Yes vote – is he considered a bad unionist in your analysis? Do you know that he is a The Rangers Football Club Plc? supporter and possible future owner? A The Rangers Football Club Plc supporter and not a unionist, mind-blowing eh?!)

“Outside of Kinning Park, the Union Jack is considered offensive just about everywhere in Scotland. Scottish people generally want nothing to do with Northern Ireland’s problems, except where we might help fairly resolve them, and we aspire to be tolerant of varying faiths, religions, and cultures.”

Again, your aspirations may need a little work, because you certainly don’t appear to be tolerant of those cultures that hold the Union Flag (the ‘Jack’ is flown on a ship) as central to their identity, or are you playing to the gallery here? Are ok with the SNP banning expressions of Irish nationalism?

Also, you possess huge generalisations about the attitudes and loyalties extant in Scotland and the Scottish people.

“We need Celtic and Celtic fans to play their part in the forthcoming referendum and vote favourably for independence. It just makes sense. Celtic could be the true champions of Scotland in that competition, and Scotland could make real progress towards building a new, better, country, making us all winners.”

Who is the ‘We’? Are Celtic fans not currently part of your group? And if there is a ‘We’, who is the ‘Them’?

“vote favourably for independence” – are there implications if anyone doesn’t?

“If you can imagine a Scotland that invested in its economy and created dignified jobs for people, if you can imagine a Scotland that didn’t take part in these evil foreign wars but vehemently opposed them, imagine a culture of hope and optimism instead of one that reduced people to bitterness and poverty (in a Scotland that didn’t dump half of its population on the scrap-heap), if you can imagine all that, you can have it. It’s that simple.”

Imagine a world where the international system of finance and industry doesn’t exist!

“So, I am asking all Celtic fans to put all their historic grievances to one side. You can always go back to them, if you want to. Get behind the Yes campaign and you could do more to undermine those representatives of Unionism and their vile agenda than you ever will on a football field. That and more.”

The irony is that the singing of certain songs and the waving of particular flags may have, in some way small or large, helped the Yes campaign if they hadn’t been banned.

So, Celtic fans can forget their historic grievances (whatever they are, and if they have them) until the Yes vote is obtained, and we can return to them afterward. Implying that we will still have grievances in an indy Scotia?

“Posted by Winston Smith”

Winston, maybe it was the patronising opening sentence, or your facile under developed argument, or maybe your intolerant and uneducated approach to the subject matter which made me write this trite reply. Maybe it was a combination of all three, I don’t know. But what I do know is that Celtic supporters and those who support other football teams (I know, why would you!), including The Rangers Football Club Plc, and also people who do not follow football at all (I don’t look down on you for it Winston, well…maybe a wee bit), are not an homogenous group, just like the Scottish society.

Posted by Falloch


And now we have Winston’s follow up comments – I should make clear that neither writer has seen the other’s response (until now) so if there are overlaps, or you feel matters are not addressed fully, that will be why.

Feel free to chip in with the independence debate in the comments!

Take it away Winston!


As expected, responses to my post from those of a Rangers supporting persuasion are entirely negative. Disappointing that they are not alone in that though.

The negative responses seem to fall into a couple of categories which I’d like to try and respond to.

1) We hate or don’t trust the SNP and / or Alex Salmond.

Nobody is asking you to trust Salmond or the SNP. We have a choice to make that goes way beyond party politics. The SNP secured our opportunity to make a decision on independence, but we owe them nothing. After independence, we can create a new political system that accommodates and reflects the will of the people. It will be democratic and you can vote for whatever party and policies you want. Compare that to what you have now — there are more Pandas than Tory MPs in Scotland, yet here we are again being dragged into a war by the Tories.

2) We need more info on how an independent Scotland would function in terms of economics and politics. What about the pound, Europe, etc, etc?

There are a million important questions we should be discussing. But let me throw some light on a huge conspiracy at the heart of this whole debate, a conspiracy that implicates the media, particularly the BBC, and most political parties in Scotland who are aware of the downright dishonesty of the debate so far and how important it is to control it by any means.

First of all, all those questions are being squarely directed at the SNP. There is rarely a day that goes by where we don’t hear of some news report that includes the words “independence” and “warning” and the SNP are put on the TV and expected to have all the answers. If they don’t have the answers, then independence is risky, that’s the narrative.

But those questions should be getting directed at all political parties, not just the SNP. Don’t we have a right to know how Labour would act if the people democratically voted for independence? What would the Labour Party do with the pensions or Trident in an independent Scotland? What about the Liberals and the Tories?

This is the trick, pin responsibility for every possible eventuality on the SNP. Don’t even ask Labour or anyone else what they will do if the people vote for independence. It’s very sinister when you think about it.

A lot of people are asking about these things and the truth is you are being deprived of a grown up discussion on the subjects. It’s a point blank refusal to take the possibility of independence seriously, and a point blank refusal to let you discuss it like adults.

We should all be discussing a variety of policy options on trident, the pound, the EU, etc, from all political parties, but instead the focus is only on the SNP who are responsible for everything.

Don’t believe me? Show me one link where Labour, the Tories, and Liberals are asked to explain what their policies would look like in an independent Scotland, on Trident, on the economy, the currency, pensions, the EU, NATO, etc, etc.

Saying you are against independence isn’t good enough: if you are asking the SNP what policies they would pursue after the referendum, you should be asking Labour and everyone else too.

Looking at it like that, when you think about it, the SNP are the only party that have at least tried to involve you in a grown up debate.

Posted by Winston Smith


Filed under Guest Posts, Independence, Politics

311 responses to “More Thoughts on Scots Independence – by Falloch and (Again) by Winston Smith

  1. cam

    To hell with Scotland!,,i demand independence for Sevcovia.
    We shall retain all that is good and true with the glorious British Empire and i shall be a tolerant leader.

    • I’m voting for you Cam if you promise to bring back Charlie Green as Life President and Heady of Comedy.

    • @gortchomhor

      Good luck with the independence for Sevcovia movement. If Scotland with its vast oil reserves and well educated population is getting told it’s a silly idea, I can only imagine how they might respond to that shower…

    • Cregganduff

      Your a bigoted little piece of sectarian shit as far as I am concerned, but your policies regarding non-payment of debt and the pocketing of money collected for charity should appeal to supporters of the zombie club.

      Nothing personal of course.

      • cam

        The best revenge is to be unlike him who performed the injury.

        • Cregganduff

          Bobby spoke of revenge not in terms of one side triumphing over another but said: “Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.”

          • Monti

            .. And laugh they did, my friend!
            ” There’s an inner thing in every man,do you not know what this thing is my friend”

          • cam

            If you wish to hang on to the words of a piece of terrorist scum then i wish you well with that,,,now toddle along you angry wee man.

            • Gortnamona

              Bobby will be remembered and respected for generations to come.

              Rangers will be remembered as a rotten sectarian institution that died penniless and despised

              Its supporters as vicious uneducated, semi-literate thugs

              And Cam the nasty sneering little bigot won’t be remembered at all.

              As usual nothing personal little man. Have a wee rant at Neil Lennon if it makes you feel any better.

            • cam

              Great that i have you and Creggy on a hook.
              Both of you are well suited, like two little lumps of spoiled meat stewing away in a cauldron fuelled by hatred.
              I pity both of you and hope your sad little existences improve in time.

        • Gortnamona


          “The best revenge is to be unlike him who performed the injury.”

          Sadly for you at least, you don’t have that option as all injuries were self inflicted.

    • The 3rd thumbs up is from me,that cheered me up Cam.

      I have been on a downer, back & forward due to a close family members illness, which is now in it’s later stages… to find New blogs.

      I came on to find this & the reply by Ed. Good stuff both of you.

      I will vote for you too, as long as you feck off the lions & Pandas & make that wee Ram Financial Director for Life, Steerpike the Minister for Propaganda.& that Big Fat Lad who said The Big Hoose as Official Spokesman…

      I am sure you & the Ram will be more than a Match for The TROLL & his Billy Goat. & that wee Ram will butt Chuckles arse if he tries to take any more money out of Sevconia….Sorted..,well nearly,You will have to sort out Fat Sally.

      • cam

        Ian,i fear you have ill thoughts toward my woolly companion.
        Sorry to hear your bad news,a wee joust with Niall will perhaps take your mind off it.
        Ed keeps suggesting we move in together,but those Paisley folk need a watching.
        My new goverment shall require a good Agriculture minister so if you forward your CV i may consider you.
        All the best

  2. lordmac

    WHY don’t we make it simpler,ask the English to have a referendum and ask them do they want the Scots, in with them, or not . if they get 2/3
    votes either way its then set in stone.

  3. Monti

    Scotland is a wonderful, beautiful country, the only problem I have is with people who discriminate against Catholics & the Catholic church!
    I don’t dislike protestants but I do have a problem with Orangemen marching about triumphantly celebrating about killing Catholics!
    it’s time for Ibrox to be demolished, it’s time to ban Orange marches & it’s time to take down the union flag once & for all from any building in Scotland!
    It’s time to sever ties with England!

  4. When push comes to shove the see you jimmy kilt wearing shortbread eating sheep lovers will bottle it and vote to remain under the union flag and live under our Brittanic majesty just like the plastic provys they don’t want to lose their benefits , ask Mick .

  5. I love how when anyone tries to make a valid point about independance they are dragged into the gutter of west of Scotland football/bigotry.
    But gone yer sel big man. Gee it a bash.
    Wasting yer time like

    • @gortchomhor

      Nobody is dragging anybody into anything. Most of us live on the west coast — I do — so we are going to have a bias but I think this debate about independence is particularly relevant to football fans in Glasgow.

      If you care to look on Rangers fan forums, you will see how political they are on the issue of independence — Rangers fans, by and large, are vocal supporters of the Union and the status quo.

      Faced with that fact, what do you do? You respond.

      • Steerpike


        Rangers fans obsessed with the Union may not even be Scottish, never mind from the west coast.

        Does anyone know how many Rangers fans are Northern Irish, I guess thousands.

        • dan

          Steerpike, you’re driving me crazy. I keep finding myself in agreement with you! Fuck!

          • @gortchomhor

            It’s not you, Dan, it’s him. He’s changed over the last couple of days. Is it too early to suggest that our company has had a civilising influence here?

            • Maggie

              @dan & gort
              It’s a ruse bhoys,a change of tactics.Like all people of inherent decency you tend to ascribe these qualities to others.Do not be fooled..Don’t bloody answer him.

          • Steerpike


            Let me change that very quickly, there were 500 sectarian attacks last year carried out by Protestants, an increase of 40% since Rangers went bust. If we estimate there are 5,000 bigoted thugs within the Rangers support, then wouldn’t this crime stat be far higher ?
            I mean 5,000 sectarian bigots wandering about every weekend are going to commit more than 5 incidents on a Friday and 5 on a Saturday night, that is only a 1% offending rate, hardly the scourge of society. I cannot believe real die hard bigots only commit an offense once in every 10 years, not exactly hard core sectarianism, nothing like good old Ulster.

            But like you I see the thousands chanting bigot songs and yet the figures do not add up, so what can make sense of this paradox, and here it is:

            A very large percentage of the 5000 are not Scottish but Northern Irish, and they increased in numbers and ferocity when Rangers went bust, Rangers represents current not old attitudes to them, their ethno-religious roots have not been diluted like in Scotland, they live and breathe sectarianism.Their annual crimes are not recorded in Scotland, and that explains the differential, there is nothing more bigoted than an Ulster Orange man who supports Rangers.

            • Monti

              Supported, not supports!

            • @gortchomhor

              Interesting to see that this statement from Steer got so many thumbs ups, yet he is generally defensive when it comes to discussing the problem of Rangers fan violence etc (because he is one of them).

  6. Badgerbhoy

    Why would anything be cut Carson? Scotland will be far better off on its own.

  7. Strange how the majority of So called ” republicans ” note the word so called would vote to remain part of her Brittanic majesty realm rather than separate in a referendum ! Why ? Strange that .

  8. lordmac

    if its only a west of Scotland issue. then maybe there will be independence
    granted to Scotland, no more marches, no lizzy on your money, no union jacks, what would it be like all schools together, education improvements, kids being able to read and write, classes for sport,
    drug dealers get the min 50 lashes , and no parole, murderers get hung, if there is no disputing in there case, five years to clear there case.
    no one political party making decisions on taxes and oil or education cuts all kids attend school, any that don’t for good reason first offence 2 lashes going up by 2 the next time,
    human rights don’t come into affect till your 21 years old
    anyone caught bulling 10 lashes, don’t find work within 3 year get put
    on litter picking duty, a selected area in your town with dole money till such times as case get reviewed, football would not be a problem as aggression can be tamed. there you go that’s what’s needed in a new Scotland

  9. The future for Scotland is surely within the UK but with far greater economic independence. If Scotland prospers through innovation and enterprise then our people will benefit directly according to OUR spending priorities. I am convinced that Scotland is a substantial net contributor to the UK Exchequer. I am equally convinced that London receives more public money than it yields in tax receipts. I want that to be made transparent.
    I like the English, Nigel Havers is a very nice man, but Scotland cannot have the full independence that Sir William Wallace Gibson fought for. Lets have full economic responsibility and transparency within the union.

    • JimBhoy

      Ed this statement gets my vote for one of the best replies of the day mate, God save the queen and all that!!! 🙂 🙂 LMAO

      “the ability to laugh at ourselves, and of course, open a dairylea triangle without getting cheesy fingers. See ya bud. God save the queen and all that.”

    • @gortchomhor

      That’s basically what the SNP are proposing. It’s basically devo-max or devo-plus. Nobody is suggesting we build a wall and declare war on England.

      • So the see you jimmy muppets don’t really want independence ? Shi##ags !

        • @gortchomhor

          Complete independence for any country would be impossible in a world where as Kennedy said “we all breathe the same air…”

          Independence is about making peoples’ lives better in Scotland. it’s very simple. it’s not about hating English people or anyone else.

          Work it out.

  10. josephmcgrath112001809

    The great Independence Debate, what is it all about? It’s a great wheeze for politicians to distract the voter’s attention form the economic mess we are in. This is not a mess we are coming out of. Nothing much has changed in our economic system.
    The banks could land us in it again, just as quickly. Stop asking about Braveheart and start asking intelligent questions about who is taking the money and who is taking the Mickey.

    • R. MacGeddon

      Joseph – the Scottish independence debate long outdates the current global economic crisis, and has been growing for decades in its current from reaching back to the early 20th c. Is it right to imply from your post that you’d be happy for many recently formed independent nations – such as Latvia, Ukraine, Georgia, Lithuania, Slovenia, or even Ireland, to dissolve their autonomous status and return to a more centralized form of overall national government? With a more left-leaning concensus in Scotland than in the UK as a whole – is it not likely that the question you refer to is more likely to have a better focus with independence than as we stand as part of the right-thinking colonially minded status quo of Westminster, with its all its necessary baggage of unelected monarchy, lords and the old boy aristocratic network?

      • josephmcgrath112001809

        I thought an independent Scotland was going to keep the Monarchy. Plenty of old boy networks here too.

        • R. MacGeddon

          True but we don’t – or wouldn’t with greater autonomy – be tied to the centuries old feudalism that holds the Westminster parliament in thrall and underpins the whole mindset of hereditary wealth and poverty that predominates throughout Whitehall and the Lords. The monarchy? Who knows in the long term.

  11. Monti

    Carson may I give you a cyber hug?

  12. Monti

    looking forward to Reporting Scotland tonight, hope Sally apologizes for her shameful remark.

  13. @gortchomhor

    Not counting a couple of cam’s posts, this is probably the most annoying post I have ever read on here.

    Do I really need to point out that economic issues are central to the independence debate? Do I really need to point out that it is precisely because some of look at the mess this country is that we want indepenence? Do I need to point out that through independence we can ensure change, and manage our banking sector better?

    It was policies made by London and for London that got us into this mess, Do I need to point out independence might allow us to address such issues in a way that suits us rather than a few London financers?

    No. I don’t need to point out any of that. I could have played the obtuse card, like you. Instead I gave you about 3 valuable minutes of my time, please don’t let it be in vain.

    • josephmcgrath112001809

      RBS was going to crash even if there was no world banking crisis. It’s Scottish, with Scottish directors et al.

      • mick

        A will miss the vote now am down south but being Celtic Glasgow Irish and republican a few years back a would have said yes instantly but now after the fabric of our nation comment and the lack of justice surrounding the cheating a would think twice also a. Have family in London and north England so a would wont to know the situ with access to England and if there’s a fee at border and implications for scots workers south and via versa but deep down my 6 sence is shouting justice for the Jacobites that lost there homes and life’s so it’s a massive debate to be had here just because we’re Celtic doesn’t mean it’s a yes most Glasgow Irish have family south also the Celtic buses coming from the south to Celtic park there are lots of pros and cons here to look at can Scotland cope with it our would the Masonic kabal steal the taxes for there selfs ????? no matter what happens universalism is here forever and am chuffed with that .oap care and health and education should be main focus on it to there’s lots to go over justice the snp justice minster is a hooligian so there’s a issue

        • @gortchomhor

          Access to England would be the same as it is now and completely unimpeded — unless of course English politicians wanted to punish us for going independent.

  14. Raymilland

    Caledonia Dreamin’

    Scottish Enlightenment; why carry a chip on only one shoulder?

    ‘No one provokes me with impunity’ – Order of the Thistle motto.

    In an independent Scotland; could you imagine public demonstrations outside the Scottish Parliament; did the architect allow for ramparts with boiling oil to be poured over the baying mob?

  15. JimBhoy

    Scottish independence is all fair and well but would anybody disagree that carson lives in his own wee world.. 🙂

    • mick

      The republic of Carson

      • mick

        It’s good we’re starting the debate now as it will help people decide don’t forget separatism from England is not the same as unifying Ireland as that country is devided and and occupied by a foreign invader what we have to decide if we break the union what treaty’s will be I place to help each other and to make sure equality flourishes in all the 5 nations concerned a say 5 as when the north is gave back to Dublin this effects Ireland and there economy so it’s a massive debate a have spoke to some welsh lads lately Liverpool fans and feel well part of the Celtic culture we might need a subsided income due to size of national income so it’s time for cool heads and or numbers people to get it all sorted so all the country’s if the union breaks up can flourish together independently

      • Fra

        The republic of Carsons Arse. ….A good reason to vote independence and set those bigots loose. No queen, no Brittania shite and no butchers apron. With that dies the hatred to others and we can then become the big people we are supposed to be and not forelock tugging creeps sucking on the nipple of England to get our limited strength

      • Not in The Peoples Republic of Sevconia, Cam & Carson can’t Rule.

        Carson would have to stand for election, if we widen it out to include their Intelligentsia then Steerpike would have to stand against Carson, McMurdo & The White Brick Man for the job of the Minister of Propaganda… Aw Naw… JACK says feck off, That’s HIS Job..

    • And its f##×ing magic !!!!!! A world with no people with chips on their shoulders , no giro junkies , football stadiums full to capacity ( no stadium repair banners ) kids free from abuse then the cover ups , and every day like the twelfth of July !! Hey ! I know a song about that ! .. for a pint now ghirlies enjoy yer obsession ! Chin chin ya muppets .

        • Maggie

          It’s a good job we’ve got Carson to fill the void left in our cultural and artistic life, by the death of that wonderful poet,writer and Nobel Laureate Seamus Heaney.Big shoes to fill,I know,but I think he will be equal to the task Monti.:-)

          • Monti

            Sorry Mags I was out walking my horse of a Labrador out for a walk there, at least I think it was me taking him for a walk 🙂

            Carson has the rage Maggie 🙂 & me offering him a hug as well…..:)

            • Maggie

              Did the Labrador pick up the zombie scent Monti ?
              I hope I don’t have to schlepp all the way up to Fife with the parole board to bring him in. 🙂
              Have a good weekend Mont. HH

            • cam

              Had to read that twice Monti,,,i thought you were out horsing a Labrador!

          • paul

            “Big shoes to fill” i know a man who had big hands to fill and succeeded.Hail hail

  16. I don’t often post – I’m more of a lurker, but the independence thread reminded me of something that I read a few weeks ago regarding looking at the vote from a different perspective, so I have pasted part of the article below:

    Reposted from Yes Scotland – an interesting way to look at the vote in 2014:

    Part of what we are trying to do in Yes Scotland is to encourage people to engage with the independence debate in fresh and imaginative ways. Sometimes that means viewing things from a different perspective.

    Earlier this week, I caught up over a beer with a friend and former colleague from BBC and STV days, Ron Abercrombie. Ron is an enthusiastic Yes supporter who raised the interesting question of what the anti-independence campaign would look like if Scotland had remained independent and the vote in 2014 was on whether we should now join the union.

    We quickly got to a list of things that would have to form the core of the pro-union case:

    • Your main parliament will move hundreds of miles away and your MPs will be in a small minority.

    • You will have a government you didn’t vote for.

    • You will hand over all your oil and gas revenues to the London Treasury.

    • The biggest nuclear arsenal in Western Europe will be based on the River Clyde, 30 miles from your largest city.

    • An austerity budget will be imposed from London, cutting jobs and threatening public services, instead of Scotland being responsible for raising and spending its own taxes.

    • You will join a country whose health and education services are rapidly being privatised.

    Yes supporters will quickly realise that this list of “attractions” is far from complete. Please feel free to add your own. On one level it’s an amusing game to play, but it’s also a really good way of getting people to look at these issues with fresh eyes.

    While the Yes campaign is grounded in hope and aspiration, the anti-independence protagonists are struggling to find a positive message to back their case.

    In fairness, it is not easy. Only the other day we heard former Prime Minister Gordon Brown try to paint a rosy picture of the union that many people, including Labour voters, will simply not have recognised.

    What the Yes campaign is all about is growing and developing as a normal, aspirational and successful country. Independence will mean strong, new relationships between Scotland and the rest of the UK – a partnership of equals, a new and stronger social union to replace the current political union.

    For us, this is about examining the kind of people we are, our values and the society we want to build for our children and our children’s children.

    We need to remember that what we are being asked to do in 2014 is not to elect a government. We are being asked to vote for an opportunity to create the kind of country we want, to make our own decisions and live by our own values.

    • mick

      Another major issue is food groth via farms we pay farmers not to grow fruit and veg to keep the price right doing away with this could bring food prices down and make the nation healthier it’s 150 for a bag of mars pipers but we have millions of acres of fields empty doing nothing this is the issue am focusing on the price of food and affordability for the less well of let’s face it there is not really any things apart from health that’s worth voting for as its material issues feed the under class with steak and chips increase beef production there price fixing to keep divide ends high for share holders what’s Alex s view on this

    • @gortchomhor


    • Fra

      @Craig…Welcome Craig. This should be made into a flyer/leaflet and distributed in every letterbox in Scotland. It’s concise, uncomplicated and hits the nail on the head. Anybody who can stand up straight should be aware of why they’re voting and this explains it.

  17. Monti


    Good evening old chap,how are you today?

  18. Winston Smith

    Falloch, I would happily respond to your thoughts on the post I made and when I first saw it that was my intention, but, having read it twice, I see very little in it worth responding to. I’m genuinely sorry if anything I said upset you which it seems to have.

    Your post is riddled with thinly veiled and outright, ad hominem, insults, but even they are quite light and I am happy to let them go, confident that anyone else who reads them will see them for what they are.

    The only substantive point you made, as far as i can see, was that I should refrain from generalising and making assumptions about people such as Rangers fans, or Scottish people, or whoever. Well, shoot me — I think it’s useful to generalise about groups of people who have identifiable shared values and characteristics etc. Sorry.

    You imply that I have some sort of anti-English standpoint and that’s seemingly quite serious (maybe I should pretend I am offended) but at the same time it’s also just ridiculous. I’m married to an English person, you see. Maybe you shouldn’t generalise and make assumptions about people too? I will not hold this against you, after all how were you to know I actually thought the English (generally speaking) were alright or that I married one of them?

    I have no problem with the English, i just don’t want them running my country. I think we could run it better ourselves. The Indians, Egyptians, and many others, including the Americans, are of the same frame of mind, so maybe that isn’t as radical as you seem to think.

    You seem to be seriously questioning the idea that Scottish people (generally) are starting to question the union with England. Again, if you sincerely doubt that, I can’t think of a way to respond with anything but a sense of disbelief and I don’t know how I could possibly express it. I should probably get you some links or something but maybe you could just do a Google search for “election results Scotland” — anything from the last 20 years should do the job.

    You talk a lot about football and I really am the wrong person to discuss that stuff with. There are enough other people doing that on here though, so maybe one of them can pick up on it for you.

    The point you made about Alex Salmond is the sort of remark we are used to, implying that he should be reproached for waving a saltire in support of Andy Murray. I assure you that there are a lot of people up here who find the Union Flag annoying when they wave it at sports events, royal funerals, royal weddings, etc., etc… I think It’s noteworthy that you and others don’t seem to even consider the possibility that a Union Flag could have political implications outside of England.

    Another thing possibly worth clarifying is that I mentioned Rangers fans supporting England as an example of how they have separated themselves from mainstream Scotland (you seem to be suggesting it is an example of my anti-Englishness). I thought it was a clear and unequivocal example of existing values amongst Rangers fans, given the importance of football up here. I can provide more examples of anti-Scottish sentiments amongst Rangers fans, if you require them (plenty at that)?

    I’m sure you think I’m being harsh on Rangers fans and quite right, they aren’t all like that. But by and large the values of unionism and protestantism (expressed as anti-irish catholicism) are values we and crucuially they themselves are happy to associate with Rangers Football Club. I don’t see many Rangers fans objecting to the Sash or Billy Boys when they sing those songs at football games (but I don’t watch football much, as i said, maybe I missed the protests?).

    I don’t entirely agree with mixing “politics” with sport myself but I am simply responding to their tendency to do that. The flavour of their values has evolved lately into something which is, in my opinion, disturbingly anti-Scottish in character. I feel duty-bound to respond.

  19. Steerpike

    ” For us, this is about examining the kind of people we are, our values and the society we want to build for our children and our children’s children. ”

    I agree, I see an inevitable drift toward the social Darwinism of America, too many national policies are driven by the needs and wants of London and the South.
    A civilization is judged by how it treats its losers and America and London are no place to be if you are not a winner, I am quite happy to give life’s losers a reasonable quality of life.
    I do not condemn the English nor their culture but it is not the direction I wish to travel, if one accepts we are all products of nature/nurture in a capitalist system, one must understand there will always be losers, it is not their fault.

    • Arb urns

      Except of course if you are a loser by dint of being a creditor of my disgraced football club………

      • Naw, Naw, Naw, Maggie.

        Cam is busy building THE PEOPLES Republic of Sevconia.

        There is almost a Government there,

        Queen Cam & The Ram, Minister of Finance, Chuckles Green, Court Jester,,Steerpike, in DeNIALL & his Billy Goat Gruff, share Minister of Propaganda & the Keeper of The Square which shall be a Compass to The People.

        There is a job for Carson., if he gets off the Meths.. Senechal… He will be great in the role of ARSE KISSER….. And he will be fulfilled, A Queen to Obey, a Goat to worship & a Cheeky wee Ram to practice on…. If Carlsberg did Governments …Cam’s vision would NOT be it. .. ,

      • Arb, DON’T FEED THE TROLL.

    • Gortnamona

      And Niall
      We must also take the ethno-religious, sociocultural dimension into consideration.

  20. Paul

    “I am quite happy to give life’s losers a reasonable quality of life”
    You are quite happy, who the fuck are you, since you came on here you have been bumming up a shower of crooks and trying to tell people that the Sevco scenario is different from how it is. Maybe you should start a campaign to give back to the losers who were shafted by the spivs you have been defending. I am hoping that the fecking losers this time round is the spivs running westminister and that the Scots are the real winners when we decide when our lads deploy in phoney spiv campaigns that are to the detrement of the people.

    • Steerpike


      Your recollections of my position do not reflect reality, but I forgive you and love you as my neighbor.

      • @gortchomhor

        Steer, have you got a bird or something, you seem like a new man?


          • @gortchomhor

            I’ll “feed” who I choose to feed, thanks. I’m glad there are people here we can argue and debate with, that includes cam and steer and others; it would be pretty boring if we all agreed on everything. And I actually wish more Rangers people came on here, I like tormenting them… It’s my goal to talk steer into joining al quaeda and talk Cam into joining the human race.

            • Gortnamona

              Niall will join attention
              Including his hands if you give him a little bit of attention. It’s his NPD compulsion, he just can’t help himself.

            • Gortnamona

              “Niall will join anything”
              mormons russian orthodox holy rollers

      • FairBairn

        I don’t see people as winners and losers. It seems to be an Americanism. I appreciate people who contribute as they are able. In my working life I have seen more shifty, workshy, unethical supervisors and managers than shop floor workers, who tend to be more honest. Maybe because they don’t have time to be anything else.

      • jimmy white

        NeighboUr pikey neighboUr bohyo, we may be going for independence but if its not gael then english will do…… No nice is it!

    • Maggie

      Brilliant reply,but do not feed the troll.He will posts ANYTHING that he deems contentious just to get a reply,preferably negative,tho any reply will do,it’s what he lives for.If no one answers him,he’ll be talking to cam and Carson and no one else. They’ll be able to drone on about faith schools,clerical abuse,empty seats and the viability of Sevco and their gazillions in future revenue, the uber handsomeness of Craig,2nd rate Italian gigolo,Mather,and the unparalleled success of HRH Walter company chairman nonpareil while we’re off to Barcelona,Milano and Amsterdam.
      Well I suppose it’ll help them pass the time between their therapy sessions for dissociative identity disorder and their anger management classes.

      • @gortchomhor

        The sad thing is, Maggie, once we get independence we are going to have to spend a lot of money on treatment for these people… They’re basically suffering from a sort of post traumatic stress disorder which has resulted in sociopathic tendencies. The more popular description is “zombies” and who could argue — they seem to have lost all human compassion.

      • Steerpike

        Maggie my dear, as opponents go you are in the same league as Monti and mick, the problem with your tactic is simple, you are a one dimensional groupie with a verbal tic, and I am a multifaceted man of substance. I am sorry I have got so under your skin, but it is nothing personal, my style is aimed at the pretentious who take themselves far too seriously.
        So climb out of your neurotic fog and consider this, do you really think grown men getting battered in the trenches by me, appreciate you squealing in their ear like a harpy with herpes.

        I think most have got your instructions to ignore me loud and clear, having to repeat it ad infinitum is coming over as shrill and slightly desperate if I am honest.
        So be a good camp follower, sit in the back row where your empty banality will not be over exposed, and watch a true master of the social network operate.

        Without even trying my dear, this old troll has got you not knowing which end is up.

        • cam

          Marge doll,this is gonna take some topping!
          “empty banality” “harpy with herpes” “shrill” “groupie”
          You do like a bit of Shakespeare,methinks the shrew has been tamed?

        • Maggie, maybe I was wrong….Maybe The RAM should practice on Steerpike… we can all listen to the DeNIALL… Unless it’s a Love Match of course…. That might Cheer it up.


    There is NO mention of James Traynor ©
    so don’t be jumping to any conclusions

    • Maggie

      That’s the best laugh I’ve had today,and remember cb, Carson’s back,so there’s,what would usually have been,a slam dunk winner right there for best laugh of the day.Even Carson’s sly,subtle and finely honed wit doesn’t come close to that. 🙂

    • cam

      Mad Phil,the “freelance” journo who uses sentences as paragraphs.

      Need i say more?

      • Steven Brennan

        Mad phil of the many names!
        Cam you can call him what you like but you cannot deny he is usually correct.

        • david

          Seldom right about anything
          Certainly not right about his non-existent brothers, his non-attendance at Hamilton, his daughters age, his abuse on a ferry…………………..
          You cannot lie constantly and expect to be taken seriously.
          Unless youre Monti

      • Cregganduff

        Phil and RTC
        Held the arch-bigots up to public ridicule and disgrace, so the sneering little bigot scum Cam just can’t help himself. He hates them for it and accuses everyone else of the bitterness and rage that is burning him up.

        Pompous asshole and hun in disguise (he would like to think) David also throws dirt, but has yet to quote anything from Phil’s Blog to back up his words.

        He also likes to attack the Catholic Church whose faults in the Republic of Ireland he sees as a justification for the rotten N. Ireland regime.

        David is heartbroken and outraged about all the innocent people killed in N. Ireland but does not give a thought to the thousands upon thousands of innocent people killed by the British Army in colloboration with the U.S. Army in recent years.

        • cam

          Hi Creggy,,you’re turning into a right wee stalker :-),,strange wee man.
          5-0 for the Gers,sun is shining,shares are up, Charlotte having a bit of bother,all is well in this glorious Protestant country!
          Trot along now.

          • Cregganduff

            5-0 Against East Fife in Div. 3 Great result man.
            All the Huns will be out celebrating tonite. Buy your round as I hear your getting a bad name and ffs keep your hands off the poor box.

            Stalking Eh? Call it what you like, but I’ll be around to point out that funny little Cam is a nasty sneering little bigot.

            Nothing personal of course. So off you and Carson go and enjoy yourselves. What one would give to be a fly on the wall when two such great minds……

        • david

          wrong as usual, with typical internet hardman talk put in.
          I am quite happy to condemn all the misery inflicted by British / US recent illegal wars.
          And the treatment of the minority in Northern Ireland.
          And the overbearing baleful influence of the RC Church in Eire.
          Clear enough?
          If I had lived in NI through the Troubles I would have been tempted to vote SDLP. They had the most principled stance and got no reward for their efforts.
          So engage your brain before you have a go.
          And Phil is a crazed bigot, a false prophet, a liar, a coward , and an abject apology for a man.

          • Cregganduff

            So you base a decision on something you admit you know nothing about. That is really stupid even by your standards.

            You are a silly self-opinionated know-it-all.

            So piss off and join those two other great brains in the pub

            • cam

              You’re getting nastier by the second and i strongly advise you to read the guidelines for participating in the blog.You are hovering close to moderation status my angry little man and i’m giving serious thought to having you kicked out.
              Now be a good little rage virus and take a long hard look at yourself.There are consequences to accusing folk of criminal acts.

      • @gortchomhor

        Not exactly Ernest Hemingway yourself, Cam,,,,,,,,,,,,, are you?

  22. Which Side Are You On

    Winston Smith,

    I’m afraid you don’t come across as particularly well versed on your chosen topic, or particularly eloquent. I believe Falloch has well and truly trumped you.

    For what it’s worth, I’ll chip in my two cents worth, or should that be two bob’s worth. I’m a socialist, I like being a socialist, and dare I say it, I’m proud to be a socialist. Nationality means very little to me. I’m Scottish and I’m British, and quite comfortable with both. I care a great deal about how people are ‘managed’ by governments (well most of them anyway), and very little about governments and politicians of any persuasion.

    I care more about working people in these British Isles than I do about political agenda’s in Scotland. After all, we’re a’ Jock Tamson’s Bairns. In creating an independant Scotland we’d be leaving people behind in England, Wales and Northern Ireland to years of Tory rule and to me, that is unacceptable. I’d rather help my fellow man avoid that than create another bureaucratic state, just because we want to.

    Give me a decent, working class English person any day, before a raving nationalist who, let’s face it, defines his or her ‘Scottishness’ by how much they hate the English.

    Arthur Scargill or Alex Salmond? I’d vote for Arthur.

    Billy Bragg or The Corries? I’d vote for Billy.

    By the way, I do like the Corries, I just prefer Billy Bragg.

    • Winston Smith

      Why do you and Falloch both make a point of issuing personal insults like school kids? You should be ashamed.

      But here we have another Labour Party cadre come to keep us all right and put the “sweaty socks” (Jocks) back in their little box. How insulting.

      And here is the gist, of your argument. Scottish people have to keep suffering for the benefit of the English working classes who would be left all alone to face their own demons if we achieved independence.

      Good luck selling that. Straight from the Labour Party propaganda book too. Forget that fact that our industry was essentially dismantled under Thatcher for the benefit of the English economy — a process the English working class have benefitted from and continue to benefit from.

      I didn’t see much support for the Sweaty Socks coming from English working class on that score — to my knowledge it hasn’t been even mentioned. Now we are to pretend we are all comrades and brothers.

      And that sums up our relationship with the English working class movement. Their representatives in Scotland — The Scottish Labour Party — have done nothing but systematically disregard and abuse the Scottish people for the last 70 years. It’s worse than that actually, they have profited from the suffering from the Scottish people — the logic is simple, keep us in poverty because poverty-stricken people vote Labour.

      Take the plans to spend literally billions of Scottish tax payers money to build a high speed rail link between London and Manchester. Have any Labour Party members or any representatives of the great English working classes even considered looking at that from a Scottish perspective? No. “Jobs for the English comrades, fuck the Jocks!” Our role as usual is to pay for it and applaud.

      You’ve had your chance, several chances, 70 years of chances, and not only have you failed the Scottish people, you have routinely scuppered their prospects, deliberately and knowingly, on the basis that you can count on the left leaning people up here voting for you.

      Well let me spell it out for you — those days are over. You’re going to need to find a new trough to stick your sanctimonious snouts in. Once we achieve independence, I’m sure you’ll turn up pretending you were for it all along, hoping to find a new place at the new trough, but don’t think for a minute your treasonous alliance with the Tories and the Liberals up here, an alliance aimed singularly at scuppering our chances, will ever be forgotten or forgiven.

      “Give me a decent English working class person any day”, you say. Well, you are welcome to them, all of them — go live amongst them. I wish you all luck. Just don’t expect me to sacrifice my prospects, my childrens prospects, and the prospects of my country for them. With any luck you can wean the noble English working classes away from UKIP and the EDL to form a new working class movement.

      Finally, do you really think I care for a second what sort of music you like? Is that you trying to butter us up and be jovial, like they do on the BBC news after they have served up a pile of crap? Finish on a little fun, light-hearted piece, having done the job of selling us your propaganda? Drag us all into an illegal war, several hundred thousand dead, and then tell us all to laugh at the funny little kitten that got stuck up a tree?

      Bye bye new labour and your illegal wars, bye bye English working classes (we never really got to know you but farewell anyway), and bye bye to royal babies and cricket.

      Hello Scotland. Hello hope. Hello world.

      • Which Side Are You On

        Ouch! Guess I touched a nerve there. More anti-English hatred than Scotland loving prose. Shocker!

        I think you missed my point. It doesn’t matter if you’re Scottish, English, or Babylonian for that matter. What matters is what you do for the better good of all people, regardless of nationality.

        And no, I don’t care if you like the same music as me. As I said at the beginning of my ramble, it’s only my two cents worth, it wasn’t aimed at you personally. Please accept my humble apologies if my viewpoint isn’t good enough for you.


        • Winston Smith

          You’re an intellectual lightweight. I haven’t said anything anti-English; suggesting I did is just desperate and lazy. I knew you’d come back with that, having realised you lost the argument.

          Your point, which you claim I missed, is not only childishly ridiculous — suggesting that Scottish people should suffer for the greater good of the British working class movement — it isn’t going to convince the people up here that the union is worth keeping.

          It’s also very unoriginal. I guess you heard Galloway say it or something and thought you could be a working class hero too. I’d be willing to bet you don’t know the first thing about left wing politics. (I met left wingers like you at University and not one of them got any further than the communist manifesto — but everything you need to know is in there, right?)

          The big problem for you is that the British working class movement doesn’t exist. Take a look. It’s gone. The reason it’s gone is that fake, self-serving, hollow, pigs in the Labour Party sold it down the river. Asking us to sacrifice our future prospects at the altar of something people like you destroyed is beyond rich.

          Incidentally, you aren’t alone in trying to depict pro-independence Scottish people as anti-English. Farage and others are doing it too, so you’re in good company. Interesting that the principles of the left vanish when it comes to uniting against Scottish people. You’re so concerned about the working classes that you’d unite with Satan himself to stop Scotland getting independence — is that it?

          I’m guessing you could actually be English and have a vested personal interest in sustaining the status quo. If thats true it makes you anti-Scottish. You don’t have one of those relatively high paying jobs in the care sector or something up here, by any chance? I can see why you might be worried, if you do. Like I said, that trough and others will soon be gone.

          Anyway, I think I’m more or less done with you. Feel free to come back and try and impress me with big words like dialectics etc. That’s what pseudo-intellectual, pretentious, luvvies often do. I’m happy to discuss all that stuff, it’s fun.

  23. scot

    Union Flag (the ‘Jack’ is flown on a ship)
    Not true….. the union flag becomes a union jack when flown from a jack staff not any mast on the vessel. Clubs don’t represent other countries when competing so why include the english or welsh flags. Seems strange but each to their own

    • FairBairn

      I’ve only ever known our flag as the Union Jack. When I hear of the Union Flag, I think ‘who’s union, what union’. Its a bit of pedantry.

  24. In our society as with many others it is recognised that we should have Governance and we should have Law.

    In a democracy this recognition comes with a weighty caveat, those who govern and frame laws do so only with the approval of the people they represent.

    The degree to which an individual is willing to accept governance through the ballot box must by some measure be proportionate to the idea that their vote actually matters and by extension that they have a say in how they are governed.

    I believe that for too long the Scottish vote has been largely irrelevant in British politics. The numbers bear this out.

    For Scotland, independence means that those who live here now, those that will be born here in the future and those that make their way here from around the world can have a government which reflects their particular needs and aspirations to a greater degree than they would find under a UK government.

    This is not political philosophy – it’s merely arithmetic.

    For those who hang their hat on tradition, the Queen and the Union Jack or any other baubles that go with it – have those if you want, they don’t matter.
    You can stand tipped toed in British pyjamas for all I care.

    When it comes to enhancing your power and effectiveness in the way in which you are governed the choice is easy – independence.

    If your folks originate in Ireland, England, India, Pakistan, China or anywhere else you can support independence for Scotland and have a significant say in its future, your future, without undermining your roots or traditions.

    For me and many others all cultures are welcome.

    Scotland is in serious danger of being a very cool place to be. Let’s make it so.

    • mick

      Lets put reasons and culture aside and look at Alex’s plan for prosperity and how if you live in a area most oppressed by Whitehall policies what is Alex going to offer most scots originate from less aflunent back grounds but due to education some grasped a better life but there is not a man or women in Scotland that doesn’t have a member of there family life in a less attractive area so what is Alex and independence going to do for them can Alex promise a socialist state that cares and supports its lame and needy and put people before big business no matter what team you are race couloir this is 1 thing we have in commen making ends meet for our self and family’s the price of a loaf the price of a tin of soup both are now set at over a 1£ can Alex draw up a list of stables that must be sold with out profit and only be sold at the price of cost to keep the people feed and watered ban farmers from taken monies for not growing when 1 in 4 children are going hungry as much as every day in 1 of the top 6 country in the world for Wealth it’s sick and if Alex can’t even promise to feed the nations lame and our children then what’s the use we might as well have a real revolution and take the land and grow our own food self presavation and all that

      • Mick,

        We have an opportunity to vote for an independent Scotland, collectively the SNP and largely Alex Salmond have delivered this..

        Should a ‘yes’ vote be achieved it is then a matter for Scottish politicians to influence future of the underprivileged in accordance with the wishes of the Scottish people.

        Clearly this may or may not involve the SNP.

        With independence we will have a say in this, a greater say than we could otherwise expect.

      • Fra

        @Mick….When something is a new concept, then small steps must be taken. Utopia will not be gained overnight and nobody is saying it won’t be a bumpy ride but its a much bumpier ride now, all because they’re tied to a failed English economy.

        Scotland is economically prosperous. This is the reason England need to retain the ties. The west lie about WMDs to steal Iraqs oil. Tyrants surface all over the world and the west (USA) are responsible for many of the powers the attain.(Taliban) They lied about Gadaffi in order to plunder his oil. Two rulers killed by the west to obtain their oil. How many despots operate in Africa?? Do they invade?? No…Why???? No oil.

        Scotland can build its own defence force, creating jobs for its proud people. It can invest its OWN money in areas where is needed. Scottish problems attended to by Scottish people for Scottish people. We don’t build a wall and stop people from going to England. We are part of a free flowing population who will cross borders for a multitude of reasons, be that family, work, personal etc.

        ALL issues pertaining to Scotland will be dealt with in the fullness of time. Free prescriptions, bus passes for our elderly are only small issues in comparison to what could be done with full fiscal powers. Food production Mick would be an issue I assume would be high on the list of priorities.

        The cut and paste post from Craig Fisher above sums it up and simplifies it. Remove the scare stories, debate the issues and when it’s over, vote YES as its the best and only way for the Scottish people. Why vote for a foreign government because that’s what your getting.

        Remove the bigoted bias from the supporters of the dead club. We are British, ergo we love the Queen, the Union Jack and the Britishness of the north of Ireland. That’s another issue. This is about standing on your own two feet and receiving the government you vote for.

        Scotland suffered 10 or 11 years of Thatcher yet never voted for her government. By this statement, it is plainly screwed up. Gain independence which is by voting SNP and on the first general election for Scotland you have the democratic right to remove them if you so wish.

        I believe if this occurs, the Scottish people will then switch to a more left wing working class vote if the SNP isn’t seen to be doing a reasonable job. This vote I believe will bear fruit for our children. The impact may not be dramatic but the progression will be gradual and the coming generations will benefit from their parents foresight.

        What a beautiful legacy for somebody to leave when they depart this world. The foresight and a step into the unknown has given future generations a chance that they may never had.

        • mick

          That was very well put fra and Martin as a laymen builder a feel after the debate the more educated people are the more yous seem to grasp its good for the future and also yous seem more able to cope with the change it would have a have taken a lot out the debate today and over the coming months and will be joining the yes camp yous both touched on good points and explained it well and would be delight to read posts from yous on it in future a feel the bloggers will have a big say in this convincing the nation to do the right thing focusing on the fact our children’s life’s and destinys will be I. There own hands is a winner a would say also touching on the point that Martin highlighted independence first then creat a socialist state were health and well being is first we are a rich nation and have great minerals that’s why they invaded us so it’s time to take it back also the fact London gets all the jobs and wealth is worth highlighting lets face it even the north of England want to seep rate from the south tonight has closed most issues a had with it all a vote for independence is not a snp vote but a vote for controlling our kids future it’s time for the yes campaign to start education debates so the message is clear highlighting Tory rule will be the real winner in my eyes good lads and lassies hope yous all had a nice start to weekend

          • Fra

            @Mick…We are all laymen Mick. Some with more education than others but do we not all breathe the same air. A fairer Scotland, especially for those who need a bit more help than others, would be a success above all else. Hail Hail Mick

        • Cam,
          You are one WEE disappointment, every time I put my faith in your projects you let me down by opening your mouth & confirming what everyone suspected…

          Take a lesson from Dennis Thatcher., It’s better to be THOUGHT a Clown than open your mouth & Confirm it.

          I have been on the phone to JACK but he ain’t answering…

          Sorry he just came back & said your Minister of Propaganda is Fecking up BIG TIME…

          Telling lies which are obvious, trying to be on both sides of the discussion….. He said SACK Steerpike… ASAP.,

          Go into DeNIALL Mode & if all else Fails, PROMOTE the GOAT, he says THE PEOPLE Worship that.

          He told me to let you know that Craig is working out a Rental Price for the Peoples Republic Project but there is a snag…

          The Asbestos is proving a problem & The Peoples Republic of Sevconia will have to agree to fix it… He said Craig phoned him from his Castle & said “Tell Cam it’s MY Ball”…He said you will know what that means…

          He says keep praising the Chairman & his hair… It shows Loyalty.. The People Love that too.


          • Steerpike


            Funny now that CG has left the building, CW is back owning the assets through centipede or millipede or whatever.

  25. Monti

    Jesus has spoken to me today & asked that I show you love & understanding, I have to ignore your cruel words & profanity, so Carson it is with joy in my heart that I once again offer you a hug of friendship, come out of the darkness & into the light… I love you Carson!

    • Maggie

      I’m humbled by your Christian charity and spirit of reconcilliation towards our separated brethren.May Our Lord and His Blessed and Holy Mother,reward you for your goodness.
      In that spirit Monti I suggest we make it a group hug,but just you make sure he keeps his hands to himself. 🙂

    • Steerpike


      ” Jesus has spoken to me today “.

      You understand Aramaic ? I am impressed.

      • Steven Brennan

        Didnt you know Monti is a man of many talents?
        Morag said he speaks in tongues, or something like that.
        So I am sure he was fine with the aramaic, probably learned it from Mel Gibson

  26. dan

    This country, Scotland, is far from perfect. But when I look around the world, I’m kinda glad I live here. If the verdict is ‘No’ in the referendum, I’ll still be happy to live here. One of the reasons for my optimism about Scotland/Britain, was watching the commons debate on Syria yesterday, when, quite frankly, some of the speakers who stood up against intervention, confounded my expectations. With what eloquence was Cameron’s ‘rush to arms’ crushed? I think it was a mark of what happened that the clown Gove had to be subdued like an out-of-control-drunk, such was his desire to get ‘action’ that he himself would not have to be a part of (warmongers are seldom found in the frontline).

    I think yesterday was an important day in the history of this country. If only the same mettle had been shown when liar Blair was PM, tens of thousands of Iraqi lives would have been saved and that benighted country would not be in the mess it is in today—–and nor would ours for that matter.

    It beggars belief that Cameron was once again about to cling onto the coat tails of Uncle Sam, when we messed up so badly in Iraq, and are currently being booted out , sans millions of pounds of military equipment, from Afghanistan.

    In fact, you know what, in certain circumstances, like my old man before me, I would probably fight for this country—-provided the Arseon wasn’t in charge of the field kitchen that is.

    • Maggie

      I agree dan,especially with your last paragraph and your comments about Gove’s outburst.He’s an absolute disgrace.Who ever heard of a hard man from Aberdeen with a private education and a degree from Oxbridge? Not really his metier,is it dan.Then I suppose that’s what passes as an enforcer in the Tory Party.
      Great outcome,though I’m still not convinced “call me Dave” won’t keep trying to make this happen.

      • Maggie,

        we live in an odd British world where going to war in the absence of evidence of weapons of mass destruction has been replaced with not going to war when the evidence of weapons of mass destruction is clear and terrible.

        Perhaps I don’t understand.

    • Monti

      I love Scotland, Celtic are here….but my heart is in Ireland!

  27. florian albert

    ‘a huge conspiracy at the heart of this whole debate.’ Very few people in Scotland buy into this idea of a ‘huge conspiracy.’ What they see is simpler; that dissolving a three hundred year old union will be complex and messy. It could lead to a decrease in living standards, as has happened in Southern Europe in the last five years. Instead of trying to persuade those who are skeptical, supporters of independence, such as Winston Smith, tell us to ‘imagine .. a culture of hope and optimism.’ Recent economic events have shown how an optimistic policy, the introduction of the euro, can lead to disaster. We are not living in optimistic times and those proposing a ‘Yes’ vote should adjust to this reality.

    • paul

      Is it just my imagination or is it reality. Have we not been bemoaning the hardships put on us by a Westminster government for as long as I can remember and longer for those older than me. Everyday people struggle with cuts and have watched as important means to an end has been taken away from them so that they can feel a part of the suffering of the whole country.
      Fat cats have been asking the people to tighten their belts whilst the same people have been awarded pay rises and seem to get richer by the day. Banks etc have been shafting the working class and unemployment has been forced upon them. The local communities have watched as their children have been victim to drug abuse whilst the police force have been cut making it easier for the vulnerable to fall into the trap of hardship and poverty and no hope.
      Suddenly along comes a chance and a promise to break free from this bureaucratic enforced slavery/poverty trap and all that is put forward from the No campaigners is a vote for independence the chance to run your own affairs will lead to……….what…..poverty and hard times. Maybe it is just me and really what I have is riches beyond my wildest imagination and that the drug addicts who plague society are all part of a bad dream. We watch an education system that slowly watches helplessly as children begin to be dumbed down through the lack of funding and teaching and slowly become a society who contribute nothing to the world in the field of science and technology and slowly decay from been the great pioneers of almost everything that was contributed to the modern age.
      I think the yes vote has got to be worth a shot as it is clear things are not going to get any better and they certainly will not get any worse should the yes vote backfire. Just a thought for the future of the generation will contribute to wars which serve not the poor but the rich.

      • florian albert

        Things certainly ‘will not get any worse if the yes vote backfires.’ This brings to mind the trade union leader who – when campaigning against Jim Callaghan’s Labour government – said that Margaret Thatcher could not be any worse. Things can and often do get worse. Speak to some Greeks or Portuguese about how much things have got worse in the past five years.

        • @gortchomhor

          Well done, Florian, a perfect exposition of the politics of fear.

          I wonder if you have or will ever have Children. And, if you do, will you fill their minds with fear when they express a desire to follow their hearts? Maybe you will advise them to be plumbers rather than doctors, or brick-layers when they talk about being pilots?

          Sure enough, it’s easier to be a plumber or a brick-layer than it is to be a doctor or a pilot. You might argue that theres less risks there. But let me tell you something in all seriousness. If your kids tell you they want to save lives or fly, I hope you can live with yourself if you talk them out of even trying. I couldn’t.

          • cam

            Perhaps Flo is just pointing out the potential risks,,,shares can go up or down as Mr McC always advises.
            Once the parties start to put some meat on the bones of their arguments we will all be better placed to choose.
            Always an SNP voter when younger and a firm believer in independence.The Scottish parliament was a step in the right direction and if someone can convince me of the financial arguments,then i’m still up for going it alone.

            • @gortchomhor

              Fair enough, cam. Frankly, though, I’d rather be poor and independent than rich and colonised. I understand not everybody is as principled as me though and would describe the status quo in those terms.

            • cam

              I certainly don’t feel colonised by the English.The balance of power is swinging back our way and we can use that to either cut a better deal as part of the UK or go it alone.
              Unfortunately i don’t feel that Scotland, or indeed any part of Britain has enough career politicians to put their politics before self advancement and greed.
              Talking sense tires me out.
              I think Niall is rubbing off on you and you’re becoming a mirror image,Niall still leads on the comedy side though.

          • florian albert

            What you call ‘the politics of fear’, I call common sense. You make no attempt to respond to the simple point that independence might not work to Scotland’s advantage; just as joining the euro worked to Greece’s disadvantage. As to what I would teach children, I would teach them to think clearly for themselves. This would allow them to ignore somebody who says that if you don’t do as he wishes it is because you are scared. They could also decide – for themselves – whether being a pilot is somehow better than being a bricklayer as you suggest.

            • @gortchomhor

              Well here’s another way of looking at it. Can you name one country in all history that acted positively towards giving up its independence? Can you name one single person from any country ever who argued that his or her country should give up its independence?

              Did the Greeks argue that they should give up their independence over the last 2 years of economic hardship? I thought they were on the streets asking for more sovereign powers, or more independence.

              Greece is actually an interesting example. Before they used Greece to scare us they used Iceland — “opt for independence and you could end up like Iceland” was the argument. The sort of fear inducing argument you use on kids, “the bogey man is going to get you”.

              They had to stop using Iceland as an example though because, guess what, Iceland got through its hard times (the credit crunch which was largely caused by bankers in London) relatively easily, by adjusting national banking and other economic policies. Nobody in Iceland as far as I know argued that the country should give back its sovereign powers to the mother country, Denmark.

              Before Iceland they used Ireland. Note that the countries change, there will always be some country they can use as a scare tactic, but the logic of their argument remains the same: independence is risky. When Greece gets back on its feet they will use Bangladesh or something.

              To get back to your point about risk though, it’s true, there are risks. The global economy is inherently volatile and anyone who tells you that doesn’t equate to risk and uncertainty is just lying. But, it’s precisely because of the volatility in the global economic and system that we need control of our own economy. Independence would allow us to adjust policy and make changes to suit our specific national needs in relation to the dynamics of the international system.

              It’s easy to imagine examples of how we might do that. By investing in new technologies, developing new technologies, through industrial policy, immigration, lending, borrowing, managing resources to take advantage of increasing and lowering demand, etc.

              These are the very same levers on the economy that the British government absolutely refuses to relinquish to the EU and for good reason. So why would we be scared to have the same levers they insist on having and are obsessively scared of losing? I’ll tell you why. Because they are effective levers, they work, and they are crucial to navigating the unpredictable seas of the global economy. So much so that any country who had them would be committing economic suicide if it gave them up.

  28. Raymilland

    Engineering an escape:

    Absolutely no connection to Daily Record building 😉

  29. jimmy white

    Just noticed bayern munich have one less star than the the rangers, the the rangers must be in the top six or seven for the stars on the jersey, sad and childish, though I see steakbake is now best friends and absolutely enthralled with the easdales now, nae scruples or pride that fat lad, so enthralled he looked like he was having a orgasm, sad cheeky chappie.

  30. Ed Paisley

    Huffington Post July 2013
    There are more than 2,400 bankers in Britain earning in excess of of €1 million, over three times more than the rest of the European Union combined, according to new official data.

    The figures on banker salaries means the UK has 14 times as many top-earners in finance as Germany, who have a mere 170, and 15 times more than France, who have just 162. There’s a grand total of 3,175 high-earning bankers – but break it down and you discover that the UK’s 2,436-strong total of millionaire bankers is several times bigger than the 739 across the rest of the EU as a whole.

  31. Steven Brennan

    Easy jet
    All total bastards
    £29 the week before a game
    £ 247 during the period we want to travel
    Totally pissed off

  32. Monti


  33. Monti

    Is there a facility on SKY to get subtitles when Jamie Carragher is speaking?
    I have no idea what this man is saying….

  34. Steerpike

    I read with some confusion Scots decrying the imperial attitudes and actions of the British Empire, did no one study history ?

    Glasgow was not called the 2nd city of Empire for nothing you know, we were probably the 2nd biggest beneficiary of colonial abuse, a worldwide abuse considered almost baulk standard in 19th/20th centuries. Think about it, there is only one major populace that was not colonized by the European monarchies…China,
    Britain was not alone and to look back with 21st century morality is just daft, the size of the Scottish army tells you we were not exactly pacifists.

    Far too many people on here submit evidence from the past as evidence of the present, you cannot view imperialism or colonialism with present attitudes, that is not how it was.

    • @gortchomhor

      Sorry to interject again, Steer, you must think me a stalker. If it’s any comfort, I also make a point of correcting other bottom-feeders when they get things wrong, not just you.

      So, anyway, this junk about China not being colonised… that’s factually wrong for a start — try reading about the Opium wars. You’d probably have been better off using Japan as an example of a major population area that wasn’t colonised by Europeans; in Japan’s case it was pretty much true (at least until 1945).

      You might also look into the meaning and implications of what Americans and British policy-makers called the “Open Door Policy” in China.

      As for not being able to interpret past events in the context of contemporary ethics and morality, there’s nothing to stop you doing that at all, it’s perfectly valid for historians to do it, and indeed you could argue that it would be impossible to avoid doing it. How do you avoid doing it? Even the language we use is nowadays is value-laden.

      On a more simplistic level you are basically arguing that we shouldn’t look too harshly on things like the slavery and colonialism of Britain and others in the 18th and 19th century. That’s an example of you imposing post-modern views on us as we’ll as the past though.

      But here’s the real problem. The slave trade and imperialism were hugely contentious issues at the time. Plenty of people here in Britain and elsewhere objected to that stuff. If you look into it, I will guarantee you find that to be true.

      Do you think they just woke up one day and realised it was naughty? If I have time I will dig out some of my old books and point you in the right direction. The so called Scramble for Africa which took place in the late 19th century would be a good place to start since it was highly controversial at the time, if you are interested.

      What’s more, slavery was even condemned by the likes of Aristotle some 2500 years ago and he condemned it on moral grounds. You think objections to slavery are some by-product of modernity or something, but you’re simply wrong.

      Naturally, then, if plenty of people objected to slavery and imperialism at the time, and some even as far back as the 4th century BC, it goes without saying that its perfectly legitimate for us to condemn it now. I would guess Jesus and Christian doctrine condemned it too.

      You, of course, don’t want to hear that. You want to romanticise it or something, I suspect, free them of the moral baggage that you hate carrying around yourself. But the truth is they knew it was wrong at the time, or at least certainly knew not everybody thought it was right, so it’s you that is trying to impose your standards on the people of the past.

      The same arguments you are giving here in an attempt to acquit the slave traders and imperialists of British history, could just as easily be used to absolve the Nazis. I’d have no problem with you attempting that, as long as we are agreed on the moral equivalence of your standpoint.

      • Steerpike


        I considered China but decided against it, in my view colonization indicates governance, my general thrust had more to do with the moral outrage of some Scots to our colonial past, a colonial past we as Scots willingly participated in and benefited from, in other word it was not just England’s fault, if there is blame and shame then we must accept our fair share.

  35. Raymilland

    Charlotte Fakeover in meltdown.

    Unprecedented amount of info released tonight and then deleted.

    Did anyone comprehend the stuff on Ogilvie, Mathers, Green; the whole gang?

    • willy wonka

      The polis are at Charlottes front door.

      • Raymilland

        RE Charlotte

        The above info may have been previous tweets from Cha. I happened to click on the account as it was mid countdown until each tweet was deleted.

        The profile photo has also been altered to a female gimp, suitably ball gagged 😉

        Will Cha be released from bondage?

        • cam

          Does Monti have a dungeon he’s not telling us about?
          Surely this obtaining of private info has gotta be well defo dodgy.
          I’m still hopeful that the polis find something on Arty,,,i hate sleekit wee nyaffs.
          Whats that noise?,,,just Marge’s heels clicking as she rushes to mention Ally.
          Marge,i’m feeling a wee but sorry for you after Niall gave you your character.That was like a total body waxing Fife style,,,ouch!

      • cam

        That would be just marvellous,get the sweetie wife exposed,folk have a right to face their accuser

        • Doc

          Paul has previously stated: Charlie, former rangers chair, says rangers have such a massive, multi-million, support then any document release would be in the public interest and, therefore, not contravene DPA.

          • cam

            Is this the trained lawyer whose obsession rewarded him with a visit from some legal chaps?
            First principles,Doc.Simplicity.Read Marcus Aurelius.Of each particular blog ask;what is it in itself? what is its nature,what does he do this man you quote?
            What is the first and principal thing he does? What need does he serve by obsessing about the Gers?
            He covets.That is his nature.He covets what he blogs about every day.He wants to be one of the People.
            It would be in many peoples interest to have Charlotte exposed and revealed.

            • Cregganduff

              It would be in a lot more people’s interest for you to pay your debts and stop stealing from charities you two faced hypocrite.

              And stop talking shite you dont understand or people will think that you have caught the “pretensions to intellectual superiority” bug from David or Niall.

              I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if David’s insensitive condescending remarks niggled a little. I’ll bet you know far more about Marcus A. than he does.

      • Monti

        .. And the cooker, burnt out van & broken trampoline is at yours.

  36. dan

    Steerpike, but what if the present govt thinks things can be as they were? That’s the problem! We’re behaving like an imperial power when we lost that clout in 1942 with the fall of Singapore! It was all down hill from there. That’s why Harold Wilson was so despised by the establishment. He recognised that British power could no longer be projected ‘east of Suez’.

    Fuck. Wait a minute. It’s Friday night. What the fuck am I going on about? Apologies to all—–except the weasel.

    Listen, can I, who went, as a much younger man, ‘east of Suez’, regale you with this ditty that we all learned at the time. It’s a bit filthy, so if I’m moderated, I’ll understand. Here it is.

    ‘Oh ship me east of Suez, where there’s plenty beer and rum, and there are no Ten Commandments, and a man can fcuk his chum’,

    I know. I’ll get my coat.

    • Steerpike

      ” We’re behaving like an imperial power when we lost that clout in 1942 with the fall of Singapore! It was all down hill from there.”

      Our democratic govt behaves in the best interests of the country, just like all other democratic govts, if you wish to call this imperialism then I disagree, it is pure nationalism.
      Each and every nationalistic democracy has a vested interest in protecting the free world, no free world no free market, in fact it is their duty.
      Take a look around at the alternative cultures on offer, Russia, China, Islam and India, hardly inspiring, civilization is a trial and error process, we try ideas out and then discard them, human evolution is irritatingly slow.

      Do I agree with all our govts foreign actions, probably not, but I am not the one trusted with the protection of my country’s interests, I understand the real reasons, and catch phrase imperialism does not give it justice.

      • @gortchomhor

        You really are weak on this stuff, steer, really weak. Why not just avoid it?

        You were good on the Neolithic man stuff, why not stick to that? Given the prominence of the Ibrox stuff these days, knowing about the Neolithic folks is going to get you a foot in a lot of doors….

  37. Raymilland

    John Greig was at the centre of a messy row last night after allegations that an executive of a PR firm employed by the Ibrox side had written an email questioning the Ibrox legend’s intelligence – with the Rangers Supporters’ Association, Rangers Supporters’ Assembly and the Rangers Supporters’ Trust claiming they were ‘horrified’ by the matter and demanding action.

    It would appear that the average Rangers fan’s intelligence is not up for debate, however, Mather has ordered a “mini-report” to investigate and also revealed he has tried to bring former captain, manager and director Greig back to the club he served with such distinction.

    Any question of John Greig’s intelligence would of course be answered if he accepted the offer from Mather to return to the club.

    Meanwhile, bus company boss Sandy Easdale claims he’s now the biggest shareholder in Rangers after buying the “vast majority” of Charles Green’s stake in the club.

    Green added: “I want to make it clear that this means I will have no ongoing influence or financial interest at the club.”

    All aboard!

  38. lordmac

    how the hell could you have independence now, when the red top rag daily record will not say what happened to there front door. when important issues need airing, they will not come forward. total shockerooney

  39. portpower

    If Scotland do get independence? Which I hope they do. Please don`t let people with this mind set anywhere near the floor of thinking ahead.

  40. portpower

    RIP CharlotteFakes. The Prestidigitation Principle. SMSM you missed it.
    The Rhebels Have Won.
    RIP rangers1872. No flanking manoeuvres.
    sevco £4 short.
    Flitting sevco flitting.

  41. portpower

    Ctrl+End = Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. The Bottom.

    Mr. Peter Lawwell for President.

  42. Champions league ticket package at £84 this means with the £100 quid off the season book we get it free,geez we could go bust at this rate. Hail Hail.

  43. (It might be churlish and pedantic to say this, but he
    (James Easdale) is the largest shareholder in Rangers International Football Club PLC, not Rangers Football Club.)

    If you have the time Paul I’d like to know what practical difference this makes.

  44. Monti


    Just watched the third goal again on constant rewind.

  45. Pingback: More Thoughts on Scots Independence – by Falloch and (Again) by Winston Smith - Speymouth

  46. Just a wee question for everyone on independance.,why did the scots reject the last independance vote,when quite clearly we were better off financially,with the North Sea oil boom revenue,our mines, steel and iron works,textile industry, etc were all in full production. What chance would a yes vote have now when it couldn’t get it then?

    • mick

      My wife was out a couple of years back in London with her sister from Eastern Europe they meet in London then were heading up to fife for break but before they came home they meet up with some of the sisters friends and were chatting about Scotland they said it was a chemical dump for the south and deep down that’s the true script and the true feelings of aflunent southerners so come Scotland its time to sort this out and take the country back and scrap trident and embrace green energy

    • In the past the labour party had a stranglehold on the electorate and they were dead set against independance.

      So if you voted labour you voted no.

      • Think this may still be the case?

      • mick

        Labour are Torys now middle class public school boys new labour are as bad as the Torys main stream party’s are evil

        • You can’t put a fag paper between their policies. Labour didn’t even oppose the grossly unfair bedroom tax. Neither part is interested in building enough affordable homes because they don’t want to burst the property bubble. These guys are university trained piliticians – never had a real job. Never employed people. Largely safe jobs for life. Self, party, country in that order.

    • willy wonka

      The Scots didn’t “reject the last independence vote”. Have a look at the result.

    • Steerpike

      Afternoon Jimmy,

      I think the first referendum’s voting structure was rather weighted against independence, although I am not sure this would have altered the result.

      Thatcher spun a few lies about oil running out within a few decades and the Scots bottled it, I do not think we were ready in the psychological sense. Thatcher and Blair certainly altered this mindset by downsizing manufacturing to the detriment of Scotland, a brutal transition we did not vote for nor want. If Thatcher had used the oil money to modernize Scotland’s manufacturing base then I wouldn’t have minded, but she decided to dismantle it and turn skilled workers into low paid unskilled workers.

      I am undecided how the vote will go, a lot can happen in a year in politics.

      • @gortchomhor

        I am in agreement. Wouldn’t underestimate the potency of British propaganda though. It’s in full swing right now trying to scare us into voting no, amazing that despite that propaganda machine a majority of Scottish people still want independence.

      • willy wonka

        @Steerpike, ” I think the first referendum’s voting structure was rather weighted against independence, although I am not sure this would have altered the result.”
        The majority of the folk who voted did so against Westminster. They changed the rules for the first and only time in British electoral history by demanding over 50% of the electoral roll had to vote “for”.

        • Winston Smith

          The bill that facilitated the referendum included an amendment which put a condition on the referendum: the condition was that 40% must vote in favour for the vote to carry and the bill be passed.

          Interesting that the amendment was introduced by a Scottish labour MP. They’ve been scuppering our aspirations for years — they see us as an asset and it suits labour to keep us shackled. Note also that it would probably or definitely have been impossible to achieve 40% because of outdated records. Worth looking into.


  47. Pukki just signed wish him all the best in paradise

  48. Raymilland

    Group of Death:

    Arbroath v Brechin

    Ayr v Airdrieonians

    Dunfermline v Stranraer

    Forfar v Stenhousemuir

    Rangers v East Fife

  49. cam

    5-0 for the Gers with 10 mins to go,,,Jiggy Mac’s first hat trick,sun is shining.
    Niall and Arb your boys took a hell of a beating,,,have a bridie! 🙂
    If they take Charlotte up to Bar-L in that bondage gear Monti will get himself lifted for breach tonight!

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