Bilbo’s Guest Post in Response to JohnBhoy – “What About Truth and Justice?”

Whilst I agree with the sentiment of JohnBhoy’s post I would just ask for 2 things from this little banana republic of a country that we call Scotland, and that is Truth and justice

As a Protestant who has supported Celtic all my life, I have suffered sectarianism and bigotry, especially in my school years.

Going to Hamilton Grammar in the late 70’s when 10 men won the league was not the best place to be for a known Celtic fan and when the bigots beat me up and spat on me, I recall a teacher saying “what do you expect being a tim in a school like this?”

The truth is that this was almost seen as acceptable and expected and although we have moved on a bit, the same bigots back then now have kids and I only hope they look back and realise how bigoted they were but I really doubt it.

And before any supporters of the former Rangers are offended, I know there are bigots and idiots on both sides.

The truth also is that the MSM have done nothing to try and reduce this sectarianism and have in times made good money on the back of it.

This has been at a huge cost to the Scottish society and instead of publishing some of the inflammatory stories, it would be better if they had a conscience, integrity and the foresight to try and improve things in this country instead of stoking the flames.

In my current job I have always said that in relation to equality “if you permit it, you promote it”

If you put this in a Scottish perspective, it could be said that we could be seen to promote some really narrow minded views.

I wonder how many sectarian or religiously driven murders there have been in Scotland as a result of someone reading something in the paper and deciding to take what they see as revenge.

If it costs over £1 million pounds per murder, they would have to sell a lot of papers to cover the cost but it then comes back to having a conscience, integrity and realising that with the power the press has, there should also be a realisation that they have a huge responsibility to the people of Scotland.

Enough about truth, now let’s talk about justice.

Rangers got £48 million in EBT’s over 10 years and the QC (whose terms of reference was set by the very people who could be severely implicated by the outcome) decided that they never gained a footballing advantage!

Where is the justice in that?

I don’t think anyone in the world believes that if you give a football team £4.8 million per year more than any other team, they will not get a footballing advantage.

Was it not Martin Luther King who once said “injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere” and there does not appear to be any justice where the actions of this former club are concerned.

I am Scottish and extremely proud to be a Scot. We have given so much to the world for a nation this size and it is often said that our people are our most important asset.

But for educated people like Alex Thomson on the outside looking in, we must look like a complete embarrassment!

So JohnBhoy, before we all shake hands and walk off into the sunset, I would like some truth and some justice – that should not be seen as an unreasonable request in a fair and equal country like Scotland- should it?

Posted by Bilbo

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209 Comments

Filed under Football, Guest Posts, Rangers

209 responses to “Bilbo’s Guest Post in Response to JohnBhoy – “What About Truth and Justice?”

  1. 2 sides of the 1 coin

    When you say Rangers “got £48m in EBT’s over 10 years”, you do realise that Rangers didnt actually “get” £48m. They “paid” £48m of which circa £24m would have went to the tax man if they were paid through salary.

    There is no evidence whatsover that if this scheme had been stopped by HMRC back in 2001 that the players still wouldnt have signed on lesser money, or indeed the same money, with Murray or the banks bank-rolling it.

    For a start, over £12m of the EBT were for Directors, Managers and coaches. Can anyone prove that Alex McLeish would have turned down the Rangers job if his salary was going to be £100k per year lower that what it was ?

    Prove to me Billy Dodds wouldnt have signed for Rangers if his total earnings were going to be £90k less.

    Craig Moore earned an additional £500k over 5 seasons. Can anyone prove he wouldnt have played for Rangers if he was getting £2k per week less.

    It is impossible to prove, and for me, that is why, the QC looking at it reached the only logical conclusion he could, without being able to have the ability of a time machine.

    • Monti

      Can you prove your not thick as shit?

    • Mac Tomas

      Wriggling like a hooked fish……………. off the radar denial
      2bob… that was toe curling!

    • 2 sides,

      YAWN, When do you go on holiday?

      THAT was Denial at it’s best….cringe-worthy.

      What IS provable is that RFC(IL) DID spend outwith their means & Died because of it…

      Get over it..

    • OldFirm 1

      The BBC has posted a breakdown of the EBT payments that were used to subvert tax laws and Scottish Football by RFC (1899-2012 now deceased). There is no need for your skewed wriggling, bum bait.
      RFC got away with a £250,000 slap on the wrist as any more serious sanction was reserved for match fixing. RFC were found guilty on all four counts under consideration. Ogilivie, who had his nose in the EBT trough, perverted the course of justice by making false claims to the commission.
      As for match fixing, there were many examples where Wharton, Dallas and McCurry conspired to fix games on RFC’s behalf. This has been a feature of the sectarian club since Struth was in the dugout.
      RFC were cheats, liars and tax evaders. They are followed by anachronistic recidivist scum who defecate in public as they cause carnage. They did more damage to Manchester than the Luftwaffe did in five years of bombing. The Luftwaffe had more class than to actually shit on the city. I am delighted that RFC went bust and their tribute act is on borrowed time and money. I look forward to buying an EBT Big Mac at the Copeland Road drive-through in the very near future.

      • willy wonka

        “As for match fixing, there were many examples where Wharton, Dallas and McCurry conspired to fix games on RFC’s behalf.”
        To quote we Calimero – “It’s an injustice !”

    • Brian J

      @ 2 sides of the 1 coin
      I am curious. Can you explain what you think was the purpose of the EBTs and of the smoke and mirrors shenanigans to try to hide them if it was not to secure the services of individuals deemed better than those your opponents had and who your team could not otherwise afford all with the aim of securing a better team on the pitch… which of course equates to a sporting advantage? Please explain why you think that if SDM could have secured the services of these individuals for less money he opted to pay them via EBTs and try to hide the fact.
      The level of proof in these matters is the balance of probabilities. There is no need to prove the facts absolutely or even beyond a reasonable doubt. I think that in the absence of any credible alternative explanation it is not unreasonable to conclude that the motive behind the use of EBTs was unequivocally the desire to secure a sporting advantage over the opponents

    • Paul

      Why would the salary have to have been set high to attract these players if they would have come for less as you seem to think they might have. What it boils down to is trying to buy the success that could not be achieved without these players. Your argument makes no sense. It is like saying go sign that guy and give him extra even though he will come for less, what type of business is that to run. All good businesses look after the £££s as they have outlets and good business is not throwing money away. Murray was punching above his weight not in the domestic scene but in the European scene, and that is why he felt cocky enough to try and rub salt in the wounds about the power he could influence over Celtics spending. The big CUP has eluded all rangers managers and the mess you are in is a result of trying to achieve the big one. You equaled 9 in a row and that’s were it ended and 54 will be overtook as it will be more than 54 years for it to be broken, new club no real titles yet.

      • Paul

        Oh by the way more than 54 by Celtic and some of us may be dead by the time Sevco reach 55 as 55 years is a long time.

    • Ben McGinlay

      Unbelievable…

    • andy

      but they also paid ebts to managers of other teams…… is that not corrupt?

      some of those managers then bought players from rangers…did thier teams know they paid twice, by both sides of the deal?

  2. graham

    Bilbo ,
    Nice post , but I can tell you both my sons are catholic went to a catholic school and supported rangers and they were subjected to a bit of the auld west coast of Scotland bigotry that you encountered , so it still goes on today
    As for your quote about rangers Un fair advantage on the field of play , can I ask you did you ever stop and think about the ten years disadvantage rangers had on the field of play when we had no money for signings or wages as it all went on the building if our new stadium , we finished fourth in Scotland for almost a decade , yet celtic were given the use of hampden whilst their ground was reconstructed !

    • JimBhoy

      Howdy Graham Sorry to hear about your boys sickens me mate.. My sis has 2 boys who share a room one a celtic fan the other a rangers fan, it’s like the odd couple they don’t encroach on each others side of the room…

      Regards celtic GIVEN the use of hampden, I suppose the only correction I would suggest is that celtic paid for their tenancy.. We may see the same coming with the Jambos and Murrayfield IMO..

    • Monti

      “Given the use”??
      Ask Fergus McCann how much ” Given the use” cost Celtic that year.

    • Monti

      “10 years disadvantage” my arse!
      140 of advantage before death!

      • graham

        You mean 141 years and still going strong !!
        Then
        Now
        Forever
        54 titles and still going on !

        • gerrysweeney2012

          Graham, A football club, once incorporated, is indistinguishable in Scots law from its corporate identity. You are watching a tribute act

        • Monti

          No that’s not what I mean. 🙂

        • Geddy Lee

          No mate your club died when the company went into liquidation.

          They are indistinguishable. under Scottish law,no matter what you or any funny hand shake judge says. LOL

          I imagine this famed five point agreement that seems to be TOP SECRET will have included the removal of titles before allowing your new club a licence to play football in Scotland.
          maybe we will find out one day. That@s if we can risk the turmoil this will bring to Sevcovia.

        • Can i ask, why did RFC sell it’s titles to Sevco Scotland ?

          Charlie boy told every one he bought the titles and no one would take them away, a bit funny selling the titles if your club did not die, why did Green buy them and from whom did he buy them from ?,
          who sold them on behalf of the club ?

        • Arb urns

          Does 54 include last years title ?

      • Mac Tomas

        I believe that’s business. We also had to build a stadium to the detriment of our team……..tough!

    • The club was dying after Celtic won nine championships on the bounce, nothing to do with new stadia, BTW this is actually the first time I have heard this piece of sophistry. Anyway that was the early Seventies. During the early to mid Eighties Deadco were mince, attendances were falling and only the die hards were follow, follow, following, and from what I can remember the majority of this little band were not the overtly sectarian mob that was soon to appear.
      Sourness came along, and despite signing a Catholic after years of sectarian policy, which he did in the most effective way possible to stir the sectarian pot, he actively encouraged certain other outmoded traditions to flourish, which transpired in the club’s advantage at the gate, the real bigots came out of the woodwork, they were more interested in triumphalism, than football. Mr ( at the time he was a commoner scrap dealer, milking Thatcher’s Britain) Murray then came along and bank rolled Sourness and the New (old) ways. Oh BTW did he sink in millions into a new stadium, no, he set up trust funds to give oldco more bang for their buck, in order to gain even more advantage than they already had in the ability to attract the ‘best’ of talent. The atmosphere was that toxic, that a good few of these players openly encouraged bigotry on the field of play, this was not behaviour they brought with them or was even prevalent in their cultural backgrounds, it was learned at Satan’s Grotto.
      What happened after the tragedy of the Ibrox disaster should not be used as an excuse for Celtic winning nine in a row, we did it with mainly home grown talent that came up through the ranks. We signed young players oldco would not sign because their names sounded Irish. Hang your head in shame in using the Ibrox disaster and it’s aftermath as an excuse for the Govan side’s inability to field a decent team until they were bank rolled by Moonbeams and cheated their way to where they are now.

    • Brian J

      If I’m not mistaken Celtic paid for the use of Hampden… They were not given it. Rangers decided to embark on a business strategy to invest in the upgrade of their stadium at the expense of their playing pool. Their business plan could have factored in the expense of hiring out another venue but they decided not to do so. I don’t really see the connection with a perceived sporting advantage to Celtic simply because they adopted a different business plan.

  3. Fra

    @2sides……..Whataboutery my good friend. A massive amount of ifs and buts. The bottom line from the blogger is, they received £48 mill when they shouldn’t have in order to achieve a higher standard of player in order to secure more silverware.

    Do you honestly believe all the players on an ebt would have chosen Scotland if it were not for the cash on offer. Wake up and stop talking shite. You have picked instances which may or not have been the case to try to enhance your argument.

    Rangers signed players they wouldn’t have been able to if the ebts weren’t in place. The “loans” haven’t been payed back because that was never the intended outcome. If these millionaires could pay back their loans then the creditors may receive some of their cash. Now tell me Souness, Wattie SDM or even Sally couldn’t have afforded to pay back the loans.

    When were these loans meant to be paid back?? Oops forgot. They weren’t loans, only in name, but part of the enticement to sign. As plain as the nose in front of your face. None of these now need to be paid back as rangers are dead. Cake and eat it springs to mind.

    A very good post Bilbo and being someone who has been on the receiving end due to your support of a certain team, I commend you. If only there were more like you brother.

    • 2 sides of the 1 coin

      Just to be clear here.

      The players we are talking about who could do it on the park received £36m in EBT’s. From that £36m, £14.5m would have been due to be paid to the tax man.

      So the actual figure we are looking at here, in order to distinguish if players would have signed without EBT’s is £14.5m.

      Not the £48m reported in the blog.

      I am working on a table which i will hopefully post before i go on holiday which will bring it into perspective, player by player.

      • Monti

        Why bother? Your team is dead & gone!
        Just take it like a man!

      • iantm

        2sides…why bother? RFC (IL) are proven TAX CHEATS. That’s why they were Liquidated. …. Even their friends could not get them off with that one. Compile a Useful chart. How much was cheated from HMRC & Creditors? There are a few people associated with RFC (IL) who are worse than Al Capone…. at least He paid for his Tax crimes.

      • Perspective, only £100,000 tax free extra( on top of his declared income) and your selling the idea that that £2000 per week in your pocket, is somehow a pittance,
        Take every player at every club in Scotland and tell us how many take home £2000 a week after all deductions,

        Every tax free penny paid and not declared was wrong, quite simple.
        the were offered the money as an inducement to sign,
        why was the money not included in their contracts for all to see and those contracts lodged with the SFA

      • Paul

        save yourself the bother the damage has been done.

      • Ben McGinlay

        £48M sides of one coin..

  4. Monti

    Morning Bilbo,I totally agree with you on all counts, I have also been on the receiving end of sectarianism & bigotry a fair few times when I was a bit younger,especially in the workplace & the Police themselves.
    When I was a kid growing up my Father didn’t like football but my mother was devout Catholic & Celtic, she never told me to hate anybody but i sensed from her a disgust of Rangers & anything to do with the Royal family.
    I had a few pals who supported Rangers & i was Celtic, there was never any nasty stuff between us just normal rivalry with a healthy edge to it.
    I never looked at these guys as the enemy or hated them in any way, it was only when I was starting to be on the receiving end of bigotry from those in authority that my attitudes started to harden to it.
    I vowed at a young age to stand your ground with them & give as good as you get.
    Rangers (IL) were a disgrace to the game with their sectarian policies, the majority of their fans in the stands worse, the SFA let them do what they like,sing what they like & cheat when they like.
    Rangers didn’t play by the same rules as everyone else, this is fact.
    Even now the odd player comes out & tells the world there are still people within Ibrox telling them not to bless themselves in front of their fans, this must be the ONLY country in the world where blessing yourself can be deemed inflammatory?
    Even now when their cheating & lies have been uncovered, still no apologies, still no regret, still no building of bridges, still no contrition,still no shame, just the same fighting talk about getting back at those who put the boot in!
    I tell you what, if it was up to me these cheating bastards would not have got a licence for 3 years,they would have been placed in the junior leagues & every single creditor had received every single penny due plus interest.
    An apology to the Catholic people for 100 years of discrimination & an admission they cheated the fans & clubs in Scotland out of trophies & prize money would also be a condition laid down.
    For me personally,victory was in the laughter of their liquidation & to those bosses of mine who made it hard in my younger years & the inspector at a Glasgow police station who treated me with bigotry & sectarianism…GIRFUY!

    FOR CELTIC & IRELAND!

    • graham

      Monti
      What have the royal family got to do
      With bigotry ?
      Cheating bastards ?
      Who are you calling cheating bastards
      Not me , my fellow supporter or my 141 year old club because we have be found not guilty of cheating , we are the victims of a fraudster who hopefully some day will get his just deserts
      Monti. Av Told you before let it all go , you have to much hate inside you it is not healthy man !

      • Name the fraudster, Whyte or the man he DUPED ?
        what has an anti catholic monarchy and the then Rangers have in common,
        if it’s good enough for royalty in a multi faith state to be anti catholic then it’s good enough for Rangers,

        Tells Us Graham how often in your life have you been discriminated against because of your religion ?
        what laws in this country discriminate against your religion ?

      • Paul

        Same old crap your team are dead, and were found guilty.

    • graham

      Monti
      If you don’t like Britain , the royal family and love celtic and Ireland so much why don’t you go live over there and pop over to good old blighty to see celtic whenever you fancy !!
      Rule Britannia .. God save the queen

      • @Graham
        It is possible to love Scotland, but dislike Britain at the same time. The same as it is possible to support Vietnam over America.
        It does not mean you have to live in Vietnam.

      • Same old tired Racist reply from a bigot.
        it’s not illegal to dislike royalty, no one is compelled to see themselves as British, the English see themselves as English first a foremost, only Rangers fans and Ulster loyalist feel the need to keep banging on about Britishness,
        it’s the BRITISH empire thing,
        the state tries to distance itself from all reference to it, it’s seen as an embarrassment in civilised society,

      • Paul

        Whats wrong with not liking been British or the Royal family both stole the titles. Maybe the guy wants to be Scottish without a monarchy has that never occurred to you.

    • Stevie

      Somehow doubt any of that sensationalism you just lobbed at us there Monti is true.
      Ah think you just got inspiration from the one or two wee musings around about you.
      The only personally contrived drivel will be the last bit in the bold letters.
      Hardly breaking news old bean…I say…..Onwards and upwards…what…pip pip…tally ho!

      • You doubt it’s true ,only because you’ve never been on the receiving end of institutionalised sectarianism,

        Graham’s mind set, if you don’t like it get out,
        I was born and raised in Scotland by my parents two people born and raised in Scotland, all 4 of my grand parents, born and raised in Scotland, all 8 of my great grand parent,people born and raised in Scotland, i get told by Sectarian clowns who’s mother of father were born out with Scotland to go home to Ireland, People with grand parents and parents not born in Scotland telling me to go home, they call me a catholic, at best, i tell them i have no religious beliefs and follow no religion, so i get told , your from Coatbridge that makes you ONE OF THEM, had it all my life, i have travelled abroad and you meet the same piss stained mongrels wearing their 5 star tops practising their sectarianism where ever they go, The truly are Scotlands shame, i tell every one that they are not Scottish, they are BRITISH, the locals say,what same English lager louts, yes i say, not same me.

    • Monti

      …..oops & ROME!

  5. Fra

    @2sides…..Whataboutery my friend. Your argument has nit picked certain instances to support your argument. Would Souness, Wattie, SDM or even Sally pay back the loans in order that the small time creditors are not fleeced. I don’t think so as they weren’t intended as loans therefore why not call them what they were BACKHANDERS.

    The reason a certain class of player visited our shores was for nothing else but cash. The English came for European football and cash. Souness came for cash and was still receiving it ten years after leaving. Why??? I wish my past employers would forward me some cash because I would be more than willing to call it a loan.

    Maybe you could have the other argument. Rangers are no more so the debt dies with them. Which is it my friend??? You can’t have your cake and eat it. You want to carry on as if nothing has happened. Rack up millions in debt, shaft everybody you owe, then start again.

    What about the face painter?? What about the roll shop??? Not multi nationals but ordinary working class people who have felt the brunt of working with con men like SDM. ‘Unsustainable model’ Fergus told you but it doesn’t matter who gets shafted, as long as we can visit ibroke to sing our bigoted vile songs.

    • Fra

      For some unknown reason my original post disappeared then when I concoct another, it miraculously appears. I wish my wages would do that. Sorry, not wages….LOANS.

    • willy wonka

      Fra – why did Juninho receive a “loan” well after leaving sellik ? Why did ra sellik take 3 years to tell HMRC about it ? And why did they NEVER tell the SFA about it ?
      Lol.

      • Why have the HMRC not refunded the tax Celtic paid on it if the EBT’s are legal ?

        • willy wonka

          EBT’s were and ARE legal.
          Sellik took fright and paid the tax on it. Therefore no tax is due in rebate.
          The questions still stand though, why did it take 3 years to declare it and why were the SFA not told ?

          • willy, More deflection & immaterial crap.

            The facts are this simple, The SFA WERE told, they are on record saying Celtic have no case to answer.

            Brian Quinn, with his Senior Banking Career experience agreed with the HMRC stance on EBT’s & came to an agreement with them, again no case to answer.

            Other Clubs including Arsenal entered discussion with HMRC when the EBT scandal broke & they also came to an agreement with HMRC.

            It appears that the Clubs who listened to the HMRC point of view & settled are all doing well, RFC(IL) cried no surrender & fought. They are DEAD & GONE, proven TAX Cheats,… THAT is their History.caught dodging Tax payments & avoiding paying their debts to all & sundry….

            NO Dignity at all….

            • willy We signed young players oldco would not sign because their names sounded Irish. wonka

              Ian – The SFA were NOT told.
              To their shame, when they did learn about it many years later they responded by NOT punishing Celtic because in their words, the money wasn’t paid until after Juninho left the club.
              WHY the money was paid or why it wasn’t in his contract was not even mentioned or questioned by the SFA.

          • Brian J

            Because there was no requirement to tell the SFA as the payment was part of a payoff to cancel his contract. Ergo it did not relate to his footballing activities, quite the opposite in fact. The SFA regulations around remuneration for players relate specifically to their football related activity. Juninho’s payment was part of the arrangement to buy out his contract and to cease his footballing activities with the club. It coincided with the end of his involvement with the club and his registration with the SFA. There is no question of him playing as an improperly registered player and being paid secret sums over and above the terms of his registered contract because the EBT was to facilitate arrangements whereby he would not play at all. All and all a matter in which the SFA have neither interest nor jurisdiction.

      • Monti

        Why did Celtic seek advice from a former Bank of England manager on the subject?

        Who did Rangers ( IN LIQUIDATION ) ask for advice? ….a porn star! 😀

        Dignity?

      • Paul

        The question is did celtic pay it when it was realised, yes.

    • Fra,
      you’ve got to be fair, Big ECK was only getting £2000 tax free a week in his pocket, the face painter would be getting far more than that, she could afford it
      £100.000, it’s nothing according to 2 sides of a £1 coin

      • Fra

        @Coatbrig……Me and you brother could eat rolls n gammon from any shop, drink them dry of irn bru and tizer and while we were stuffing our fat face the face painting lady could adorn her art maybe of a tiger or a lion depending the preference on our boat races.

        The reason we could be so gluttonous, was the fact that when we had finished, we’d stick two fingers up to the small business person who ran the shop and the wee face painter because we weren’t paying.

        The corner shop guy is up and on the go by 5am earning 1.5 pence profit on every paper he sells, making rolls in the back shop to maximise the little profit he’ll make. The face painting lady won’t become a millionaire either but these instances were of no concern to the scummy toxic club. Shaft businesses the length and breadth of the UK just to prove they were the peepul.

        When it is black and white and it is working class people affected by the greed, then there is surely questions to be asked. If SDM wants to be the hero he always craved then settle all debts starting with the small businesses who are the least likely to be able to afford it.

        When this has been carried out accompanied by an apology, then and only then shall the the rangers begin to be accepted. The argument from 2sides is, the football debt is paid???? That’s fine and dandy then because the others don’t matter??? Is this what your saying or Whatabout…..People get stung by businesses failing every day.

        We are aware of this but none of them open up the next day in almost exactly the same clothing.

        • Thats why their history is one of shame, the shame was the first thing to be TUPED over to Sevco, it’s their proud tradition,
          Not one person connected to RFC has said sorry to any SMALL business that lost money, no Rangers fighting fund set up by the like of two sides of a £! coin to pass buckets to send on money to the many small businesses,

          WHAT happened to the fighting fund, where is the money and what is it getting used for ?

  6. JimBhoy

    Bilbo good post mate, I hope the teacher’s comments was a dated 70’s attitude mate… We have a couple of boys from the grammar, one who is a big rangers fan but a smashing boy,

    Just to add to the pieces I had yesterday: Pseudo religious prejudice and football on these Isles are too closely associated.. It has absolutely nothing to do with the catholic or protestant faith, people just ignorantly think it is. Read back on a couple of posts i had yesterday, it’s about belonging to a group, exclusivity, tribalism, maybe football wrongly enhances that relationship but it’s nothing to do with how you worship your god.

    I think IF this is clearly realised and the actual differences between both faiths made more visible, it’s a good start point to showing there is not much difference after all and because you went thru the motions as a catholic or protestant at school, unless you practice your faith it’s pretty ambiguous to classify yourself in that faith group…

    In saying that my view of religion is that it is there for you if and when you need it in your life and can be embraced for the right reasons when needed, an open door. Just my opinion.

  7. Mac Tomas

    Good Blog Bilbo!

    “No sporting advantage” LNS delivered that line as dryly as a Chick Murray one liner, but with no obvious irony……….. No sporting advantage… “Pishing myself laughing”

  8. 2 sides of the 1 coin

    The amount, using the BBC list, of unpaid tax in relation to footballers was £13.38m.

    In terms of the players and weekly wage differences, here is a table.

    Now someone prove beyond any reasonable doubt that these players would have categorically NOT signed/played for Rangers if any of their weekly wages were lower.

    Then, AND ONLY THEN, can anyone have even the remotest of arguments that a sporting advantage was gained. 🙂

    • arb urns

      ask ‘ mr black’ if the ebt scheme allowed rangers to sign players they couldnt have otherwise afforded…………………………………………………..

    • @1side.
      Mr Black, in the report clearly states the EBT scheme was a method to fund players they could otherwise not afford. Who do you consider Mr Black to be? Is his word not good enough for you?
      It has been done to death 1side.. It is not rocket science.
      Rangers spent an as yet, undetermined but HUGE, amount of money they didn’t have, nor where ever going to have. As a result they went bust. The company And Club are the same entity.
      Rangers were not victims. Rangers benefitted from the use of these unaffordble players, winning titles and trophies bringing Euro football and further purses.. A fact the fans revelled in and threatened mass outrageto protect them. There was no mass outrage to pay their tax duties or creditors.
      Why should there be? It is perfectly legal to liquidate and ditch the debt. Your debt dies with you under liquidation laws.!
      That is what happened, that is where we are. That is where EVERY Scottish fan(except Sevconians) consider us to be. That is where the LAW of the land considers us to be.
      Ignore that if you wish and keep believing the lie. It is up to you. But don’t be surprised that nobody else believes it.
      It is as clear as the nose on your face.

    • jjbhoy

      @2rides,OK let’s keep this simple for you. Two teams want to buy a player but one offers a tax free payment a couple of times a year which nets the player more money than is stated in his contract,who would he sign for. Did this not come to light when Jean Alain Boumsongs accountant could not account for these irregular payments which eventually brought down your house of cards,tell me you are not that stupid.

    • Felpen

      I will. Why would any club need to add a sweetener like tax free money if any of the player’s managers and directors had already said yes?? How stupid are you pretending to be or are you honestly not pretending!

    • so tell us , why the need for side letters ?
      why not just have it written into the contracts ?

  9. 2 sides of the 1 coin

    The webs of deceit have been spun as usual. The old mantra, “the players wouldnt have come to Rangers if it wasnt for EBT” has been hung out there for ages.

    Can anyone actually prove it please ?

    I know how you bhoys are always asking for concrete evidence.

    The floor is yours.

    🙂

    • Auldheid

      There is circumstantial evidence and I postedc it a couple of mintutes ago.
      Folk do not normally lie unless they see some advantage in it.
      QC advice was lieing would be a sign of intent.
      Apart from that the reason why clubs get points deducted for going into administration is because not running their club on the same sound fnancial basis as their competitors using other peoples money, whether that be bank debt never paid, creditors not paid or tax payers money not paid is seen by football without having to prove it to anybody as a sporting advantage.
      If it were not, Hearts could appeal their 15 points deduction.
      The problem with the LNS decision is that it throws out basic principles on which football has been run, and in a sport that has damn few anyway that is criminal. The game turned on its head alll to argue Rangers are not guilty of cheating.

    • @1side
      Mr Black’ s statement in the FTTT investigation. 1side, show me some evidence that Rangers “The Club” and Rangers “The Company” were separate entities.

  10. JimBhoy

    @Monti / All interested in a reply:

    I wrote a few weeks back suggesting that Lennie made a mistake in letting Russell out of his grasp for a very small fee compared to what we are spending now and a proven goal scorer with youth on his side…. IMO if a player has doubts about staying ala Hooper it should be assumed he is going especially as we rely on him for goals, we need that replacement planned and in before we ship the player out..

    I believe this has been a big mistake by Lennie and Celtic, what do you think..?

    I agree with Sutton’s evaluation of Hooper’s move it brings him (Hooper) no more closer to an England cap unless he bangs in 30 league goals this season in a new team and that’s a big ask. They will likely be fighting relegation and I think Hooper will see this as the biggest mistake of his life.. I of course wish him all the best.

    We are bringing in the dutch winger, could be a good piece of business but is he any better than Forrest? He will certainly play a very similar position, will this limit Forrest’s opportunities as often manager’s play players they have bought to those they have nurtured??

    Lastly I also disagree with Lennie saying Watts should go out on loan, he is easily good enough for the top league and deserves a chance, he and Russell with Sami behind them would have been an awesome striking partnership imo..

    Just an opinion but we need to see at least one youngster come thru the ranks this season.

    • cam

      @jim
      Apart from his Barcelona goal what has Watt done?
      Russell could have been bought cheaply and i was surprised that Lennon didn’t go after him.Hopefully one to regret!
      Lawwell knows that a monkey could pick a team to win the SPL,so giving Lennon money to waste is a risk.
      Hooper’s career is now finished and big Vic will be exposed down south and get his manager the sack.

      • JimBhoy

        @Cam Watt can be a top player but he needs to be playing, that’s my point…

        • cam

          I think thats why Lennon wants him out on loan.
          He could play him up front by himself for the whole season and Celtic would still scoosh the league,,,there’s no competition.
          I think we in Scotland really have to rethink our ideas of a “top player”.If some young guy does one trick or shows one bit of skill our starved eyes start talking him up and then they don’t progress.

    • Monti

      While I would have taken Russell in a blink of an eye JB, there is more quality out there,agreed Russell would have came cheaper & I’m a wee bit surprised we let him go.
      This chap Finnbogason seems to be a bit of a goal machine, I hope there is substance to the rumours we are interested in him.
      One player I would like is Gary Mackay Steven, would love to see him on the left wing & Forrest on the right…beep beep…lol.
      The Dutch boy is a flying machine & makes Husen Bolt look like he’s on horse tranquilizers lol.
      Keep faith in our Neil, he has brought the thunder back!
      Graffiti on the wall……

    • portpower

      @JimBhoy
      Derk Boerrigter will play on the left and Wee Forrest on the right. From what I hear, Neil and Tony aren`t seeing eye to eye at the moment. Frustration for the young Bhoy. Neil would be foolish to loan him out.

      • Mac Tomas

        @jim…a bit mystified by Lenny’s thinking, is he trying to change the way we play by bringing in the Portuguese target man?…. The dutch boy seems like a good signing, but we already have four players with pace who can deliver quality into the box, Forrest, & the 3 wing backs, Mathews, Lustig & Izzy!!!! . Was pinning my hopes on lenny bringing in some real quality at centre half, still not convinced by what we have there. & yes, Russel would have been an ideal & affordable replacement for Hooper!

      • portpower

        A quote from Alfreð Finnbogason.
        “At the moment, I think there is only one club I would play for in Scotland and that’s Celtic. It’s a huge club and they play in the Champions League. It would be appealing to play for such a big European club. The Larsson history would make it even better but I want to make the best decision possible for my career“

  11. Budweiser

    Another good post.

  12. cam

    We already know that due to past historical events,that Scotland.especially the west has a sectarianism issue.
    Some control freaks burning some folk who challenged the power of Rome and the activities of a hunchback on a white horse one fine July day are feck all to do with me.
    I was raised as a Protestant,went to a non denominational school,knocked back the offer of marching in the walk,supported Greigy’s Rangers,had Celtic pals,loved it when they got beat,laughed at Just Another Saturday,hated everything to do with Northern Ireland,supported the SNP,loved watching King Kenny,was proud to be Scottish and British,got older,became more aware of the haters,got confused about folk who worshipped Ireland but wanted to stay here,realised that without trying, that i was getting stuck behind a barricade,despaired at Scotland’s decline on the football map,knew that Rangers were spending too much,supported Advocaat’s Murray Park ideas and watched SDM getting disenchanted.
    Got my head split open by some Tic fans on the High St,squared that up the very next night,watched as the enmity grew,realised that as a country we were fecked,loved the spirit of my fellow Gers fans as we stayed loyal and now can’t stop laughing at the exposed loonballs.

    • Monti

      Have the creditors been paid yet?

      • graham

        All football debts have been paid ..
        Chase mr white for the rest the ratbag is responsible not out club.

        • Fra

          @Graham….Whytes a patsy for your beloved SDM. Whyte tried everything to help your dead club and look at the thanks he got. SDM runs your club into the ground yet not a peep. Unbelievable

        • @Graham
          Football debts HAD to be agreed to be paid. Even the SFA couldn’t swing a license for you if they were not.
          Creditors also have to be paid because you owe them.
          Feck all in that for you, so feckum!

        • It was your club that benefited from Whytes actions, or is that something else your ready to deny ?
          Whyte used the PAYE,VATand NIC’s to keep the gates open until the end of the season.

          Rangers used sole traders and small companies goods and services then spat in their faces, today your spitting in their faces again, Whyte done what he done on behalf of a failed football club, bled others dry to benefit RFC 1872.

          why should ONLY football debt be repaid ?

        • graham, RFC(IL) WAS responsible.as were The previous Owner, Directors & a certain Chief Executive with a shredder.

          They brought your Club to a point where it was OVERPRICED at ONE POUND & it was sold for that to a guy with no provenance….Sorry he was a Billionaire, I remember you all cheering this new Demi-God into Ibrox. It was almost a Religious experience, there were plenty of asses, all that was missing was the palm trees.Now you want a crucifixion & ALL the blame on him… What did he do that was Illegal? Remember it was RFC(IL) who withheld Tax & did not pay creditors, resulting in the demise of RFC.

          Sevco morphed into TRFC & there seem to be even More Spivs now. Tales of overspending are rife, overpaid executives & £7m to win the LOWEST League in the SFL.

          RFC(IL) are Dead almost buried, we await the “coroners report” from the Liquidator & then that will be that.

          Why do Ex RFC(IL) supporters bleat on & on about RFC(IL) we’ve had it all from Niall insisting RFC were viable ( They were not, the rejected CVA proved that), 2 sides., we can’t prove RFC(IL) overspent.(Liquidation proved THAT) RFC Never Cheated, yes they did they died TAX Cheats, withholding NIC , Vat etc. They also died in disgrace wasting money while refusing to pay creditors.

          A wee bit of advice for you all. WORRY about your NEW CLUB, they seem to be going the same way as RFC(IL) did. .

    • Ed Paisley

      Cam – you watched David Murray become “disenchanted”.
      I watched SDM take fright at the impending implosion at Ibrox and look for the first person who would take the club off his hands – even a born crook who was intent on liquidation and phoenixing.
      Murray is a coward who refused to face the music after 24 years of financial wrecklessness and rule-breaking. He helped Whyte in his dirty little scheme for Rangers then he skulked off to France knowing his buds in the MSM wouldn’t pursue him.
      I respect your honesty in your post above and I am deeply sorry that you were assaulted. But let me say that the picture you paint of my/our attitudes is extremely simplistic.

  13. 2 sides of the 1 coin

    Anything posted by someone of a Blue persuasion is automatically classed as “whataboutery”

    Can anyone with a reasonable argument dispute that if the players had received the money as wages instead of EBT that HMRC would have received circa £14m in additional taxes and not £48m as is being indicated time and time again.

    • cam

      Don’t waste your time 2sides,,,its part of their folklore now,,just let them be,it helps the poor wee souls sleep at night.

    • StevieT

      The thing is they recieved them fact. deal with it.

    • So why did they not just put the money through the books, put the money in the players contract and pay the tax, why hide it, why dress it up as a loan, why not just declare it, your telling us not one player or big ECK would have said no to the amounts on offer regardless of the EBT’s
      so why did there have to be EBT’s ,with secret side letters?

    • 2 sides, get Real… If RFC(IL) had to conduct their business in the same fashion as other Clubs did there would have been side effects for them.

      First choice in the event of paying upfront salary as per contract would be that either the Board would Baulk at it & recruit lesser players, this would have resulted in an angry support., in revolt or spend the money & it would all be in the open… No Euro licences etc.+ nervy NEDS responsible for the debt.

      RFC over the years Wasted Multi Millions of other peoples money, down the drain with little to show for it. It was all covered within the Massive debts of MIH. As i have stated previously, Murray’s Gravy train ground to a halt when he lost his Friendly Bank went tits up… When Lloyds saw the extent of the debts they crapped it big time.MIH OWED NINE HUNDRED & FIFTY MILLION & has to be revalued at £1.25 Billion to remain “Solvent”

      RFC Debt was circulating within this MIH disaster. Lloyds had a forensic examination of the accounts & wrote off millions, converted debt to equity & resolved to get shot of RFC… The rest is history.

      Murray never bought RFC with his OWN money, he used other Bank loan, he Owed £65m when he took over at Ibrox. When the Share issue failed he covered it with another £50m bank Loan & moved it into a Murray company within the MIH Empire. When Lloyds took over RFC were doomed, all the dodgy dealings, bad Management & overspending caught up on them. RFC Traded while insolvent for years..

      So Jiggery Pokery has ALWAYS been the RFC(IL) way… It seems TRFC & RIFC are following suit…. .

  14. JimBhoy

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/former-rangers-star-ajax-boss-2103673

    Some kind words on the Celtic from an ex-rangers man.. I hope his comments on the player ring true..

  15. Auldheid

    2 sides
    In the case of the Discount Option Scheme , involving payments aka “the wee tax bill” of £2.8m paid to Moore, Flo and De Boer, the reason why Rangers accepted that they had used an illegal scheme was that their QC Andrew Thornhill advised them that lieing to HMRC when they asked if there were side letters would inevitably see any appeal fail and would only increase the bill because of costs.
    It is the lieing which continued into the use of EBTs that LNS reduced to no more than administrative error that demands justice.
    It is the lieing and continual denial of wrongdoing, even where that wrongdoing was legally confirmed that prevents any chance of reconciliation.
    In 2003 Discount Option Schemes were officially declared illegal because of the shams that they were.
    At that point rather than look at their policy of using dodgy means of dodging tax, Rangers moved on to another dodgy means, the EBTs that the UTT will rule on.
    The common factor in both is side letters were used. In the DOS case Rangers lied about their existence, in the EBT case they just kept their existence hidden ( I believe they were uncovered in a police raid on another matter).
    So even if the amounts are less and even if it cannot be proved those players would not have signed anyway, Rangers must have had some reason to lie to HMRC on DOS payments and hide existence of side letters on EBTs.
    They must have thought they would be losing some business advantage in being open and being a sports business they must have thought that was a sporting advantage, otherwise why take the risk?
    So I’d save yourself the bother of doing the sums and suggest you instead read the on line material on the wee tax case and the DOS and come up with an explanation why it was necessary to lie to HMRC other than to retain the advantage to the business such a scheme gave and avoid the disadvantage from having to pay back what HMRC were owed at the time of asking in 2005.
    That wee tax bill has never been paid btw and thats another story of lies and obsfuscation with SFA help.
    The truth? You can’t handle the truth but happy to be proved wrong.

    • JimBhoy

      @Cam one of those mysteries of life…He is protected as regan is by the old boy’s network, those who don’t want to see real productive change because it may affect them personally at some stage up/down the chain..

      I am not even gonna speculate who is involved there but I hear it could be the vanderbilts, the queen, the pope and colonel sanders with his wee beady eyes..

    • arb urns

      he knows too much ?

    • Geddy Lee

      As a reward for not helping rangers ?

      For being a taig?

      because he’s having an affair with Peter Lawwell?

      Because he hates rangers?

      because he hates Protestants ?

      Take your pick, they are all winners in Sevcovia.

    • Monti

      FFS Cam that is the first time I have agreed with you! 🙂

    • because he helped sell the lunatic idea that Sevco are the same club as RFC 1872, it gave the clown an immunity badge, why do you think he did what he did, you scratch my back and i will……………….

      Ask all those involved in the 5 way agreement,that’s where your answer is to be found

    • Cam,
      Because HE kept his part of the Five Way Agreement & was a shoe in for the job.

      Anyway it will all be OK.

      DAFC will get a CVA & Continuity.

      At worst Hearts will do it the Sevco way.& their newco will Morph into… Hearts.thus proving that the theory of RFC Immortality is correct & Doncaster was right all the time..

      I believed him at first… I thought he said the IMMORAL RFC & I nodded in agreement..

  16. Ian Taylor

    You were maybe doing so well with your initial musings about the bigotry and the bile – but then you had to confuse the situation with ‘justice’ and EBT’s!

    Subject to appeal by HMRC Rangers were not ‘convicted’ of any wrong-doing over the Big Tax Case aside from relatively minor mis-administratiin issues! The way they handled their tax affairs was deemed as NOT illegal hence the ‘no sporting advantage gained’ ruling – you and your lot can continue howling at the moon for ‘justice’ but those are the facts however unpalatable to those in green and white!!

    • Auldheid

      Apart from the jury still being out on the Big Tax case Rangers were advised to cough up for the wee tax case because a precedent that went before an FTT and then UTT, both of which ruled Discount Option Scheme as illegal was used to pay Flo, Moore and De Boer and Rangers lied to HMRC to cover up the illegal way in which they were operating DOS.
      So if you are arguing no case to answer on the basis of an FTT finding, what is your argument that nothing wrong/illegal happened on the DOS scheme?
      De Boer was part of the 2003 title winning team having received 4 DOS payments before switching to the EBT regime.
      LNS worked on basis that EBTs were regular payments but whilst that was the case at the time for pauments after 2003, those payments before 2003 under DOS were irregular and should not be viewed as if they were.
      In fact if it were a criminal case they would be viewedvas “previous” form and might have matters so that substance ruled over form.
      Twisting and turning the law to provide the desired result as opposed to the correct result justice demands is the heart of the ongoing acrimony.
      I care not a jot whether the 2003 title is withdraw, what is alarming is the ongoing defense of something that was wrong and then having to face that same culture with no concept of playing fair in any competition.(look at circumvention of player signing ban).
      A fair minded person would admit guilt hand back the title and resolve not to repeat.
      I want to keep watching Scottish football but not if I know I will be cheated and those responsible for upholding fair play are part of it and entertain a club to whom the concept appears alien.

    • So if HMRC win the appeal,that the EBT’s were illegal, will that then mean there was a sporting advantage gained.

      What happened to all those guilty pleas on EBT’s that RFC held there hands up to, so if you plead guilty ,no sporting advantage,

  17. cam

    Tv deals and sponsorhip are all in limbo until the Gers return to renew hostilties with the Viet Cong.
    The money men know that the English like their wee warm up Coliseum contest on a Sunday.
    Unless a miracle happens and some(non Scots) coach actually teaches kids to control and pass the ball and not panic when in possession, then the Scottish game is fecked.
    Hearts 15 point penalty,Aberdeen nosediving,Dundee Utd teetering,Killie up to their ears in debt,Motherwell skint.
    Just give Celtic the trophy now and cancel the season,,its utter pish.

    • Geddy Lee

      Now now cam, we know the rangers coaching team are laughable, but don’t think you can tar all clubs with the same brush mate.

      Yes, all you get to watch is utter trash, but you choose to support them.
      You need to be aware that not one club in the “big” division reports a drop in season book sales. On the contrary most report an increase, including Celtic.

      Celtic’s young teams are doing fantastically well thanks to talented coaches at Celtic Park.

      Oh And I see you are still clutching at the straw of Scottish football meltdown.

      This sis how far you guys are removed from reality.

      • cam

        Celtic haven’t released their figures.They do sometimes tell us how many folk were dressed up as green seats so we can all have a laugh.
        If you can point me to one home grown player anywhere in Scotland right now that is genuinely worth watching then speak up.
        As for straws,i’m just pointing out what is out there if you take off Lawwell supplied blinkers.
        Dundee Utd had to sell Russell or be shut down.
        Hearts are bust.
        Killie have unsustainable debt.
        If TV money isn’t found soon its tattie bye.

    • @Cam
      Who invented sporting advantage? Jill Troon? The issue was about side, or dual contracts which the authorities had not been legitimately informed.
      On this Rangers were found guilty. There is no such football law as “sporting advantage”.

    • Cam, The Viet Minh & later the Viet Cong took on Foreign Oppressors & Won.

      I am sure Celtic will manage against your Middle & Far East Spivs if you survive that long.

      Meanwhile talking about Utter Pish have you watched TRFC since they Morphed?

  18. Geddy Lee

    It will be fascinating to see how the authorities deal with Hearts if indeed they do go bust like the old rangers.

    Anyone know Jabba’s take on the hearts predicament?

    For a Heid of communications, he sure is quiet since moving to the darkside.

  19. cam

    I’m scanning all sites but as yet i’m not aware of Peter Kearney commenting on last night’s BBC Scotland documentary.
    I know he’s busy watching for referees making sick jokes about the activities revealed in these programmes and that he has some statistics to publish that Catholics in Scotland live under the same conditions as black folk in the deep south,but a wee statement might be useful.
    Forget the carefully worded statement about Joe O Rourke,Peter,,,thats old news.

    Suffer the little children.
    May every deviant who harms them roast in hell.

    Before anyone asks what this has to do with Celtic?,,,nothing,,its a legal blog and the law is being broken and covered up in one of the most disgusting scandals that anyone could imagine.
    This isn’t point scoring, but genuine rage that this is being allowed to occur and folk can’t comment on it for fear of being branded a bigot.
    Why does the Catholic Church have such a problem in this regard?,is it to do with the celibacy edict?
    How can men of conscience disregard the teachings of the bible,for fear of a fall from grace in the corridors of the Vatican?
    If 10% of the energy and committment to expose Rangers as the Great Satan was used to expose these deviants and protectors then some poor kid’s life might not be ruined.

    • cam

      TD it all you want,,,you can tidy it away in your collective conscience by stating its just that stupid wind up hun bastard trying to deflect,blah de blah.
      If an “outsider” can’t bring this matter up then where are the army of bloggers,good Catholics.journalists,MP’s etc, actively campaigning and lobbying to expose this?
      Ignoring the warnings won’t make it go away,blinkered stubborn defence of an outdated institution’s secrets won’t stop these sick serial abusers.
      C’mon Peter Kearney,here’s one stupid hun that will commend you for speaking out just like the Kilwinning priest.
      No Canon law to protect these deviants,no rehabilitation treatments to keep the matter “in house”
      The legal rights of the victims to come before the reputation of a church,whatever church.
      No behind the scenes shuffling of money, and legal trickery to protect the church’s finances from liability.
      Take the moral high ground,Carpe Diem Peter,with one stroke(no pun intended) shut up all the idiots who use this scandal to attack the church you represent.
      Let good Catholics have their church cleansed of this stain.

      • @Cam
        No argument from me. Catholic, Protestant, black, white or God himself. A peaedo, is a peaedo, is a peaedo.
        I could offer nothing to a debate on it bud. Except to say lock them up for ever. There is no cure or rehabilitation. Only my anti capital punishment views, prevent me from advocating death. If I could see past that, I would vouch for a very horrible one

        • Steven Brennan

          Barca
          Every normal minded person in the country agrees with that, except I would happily be Albert Pierrpoint for each and every one of those convicted without any doubt.
          And I think you would too,if it was one of your own that was suffering at the hands of these sick bastards
          These types of documentaries should be compulsive viewing to expose all of the perpetrators of crimes against children. And also those they hide behind.

          • cam

            Exactly guys!
            As a father my blood boils at this,there is no graver crime.
            I was choked at witnessing those poor guys relating those horrific tales.
            Me raising this,i can understand some folks suspicion that i’m up to no good,Trust me,there are areas that even i won’t stoop to point score.
            That sick fecker Saville fooled everyone and the culture of silence abetted the sick bastard.
            I passed that scum at Pollok Park in the 1985 marathon.If i knew then what i know now, i would have ended the fecker.

          • @Steven.
            Aye your right mate. Nae hesitation.!

        • cam

          Watch out guys Creggybhoy doesn’t like anyone agreeing with me.
          His posts are short as rage doesn’t lend itself to discussion.
          He could provide a counter argument,he could post the legal technicalities for non prosecution of these deviants,he could quote scripture to explain the church’s policy.
          He doesn’t because his heart is full of rage.
          A lost bhoy.

          • Monti

            When all else fails revert to attacking the Catholic church eh cam?
            Why don’t you google abuse in protestant churches? Dickhead!

            • Cregganduff

              Yes Monti
              Typical Rangers scum who will sink to any level to score a sectarian point.
              The Cam excrescence has been selling the line, I’m only winding people up and having a bit of fun for a long time. But every so often the mask slips and the face of the hate filled rangers bigot can be clearly seen. I mostly ignore the little rat.
              The little shit is now trying the old Brit tactic ‘divide and conquer’ . As far as I’m concerned, anyone who wants him can have him.

    • willy wonka

      @cam – Kearney, who had an opinion on absolutely EVERYTHING has kept his big mouth closed since the last sex-pest got uncovered and did a runner to Rome.
      Conti’s office told lies last night.
      Neither will say another word on the matter ever again. It’ll all be passed over to the new broom to deal with the sweeping up.

      • cam

        Yup,the hypocrisy is overwhelming.
        The bigoted idiots who can’t discuss it are the lesser people.
        This isn’t a daft wee fitba team that’s at stake here.
        Keef at least kept away from weans.
        They’re gonna face up to the big judge eventually,,,hell mend them

    • Expose every last one of them ,prosecute them to the full extent of the law, decry any one that tries to shield them,
      Give every abused child legal aid to sue the church’s that protected the abusers.

  20. It will be interesting to see how the places are filled if hearts and dunfermline go bust, or has this already been secretly dealt with?
    Paranoid?
    No wonder!
    Just can’t trust any of them!

  21. portpower

    @Bilbo.
    A good read mate. Thanks.

  22. cam

    You gotta laugh at Celtic bricking it in case Bangura scores!!
    Jeez Lenny is probably employing reverse psychology to ensure that the walloper plays.
    I wonder if there’s an obsessive checking through UEFA rules to get the game voided and awarded to Celtic if he does play.

  23. Geddy Lee

    Just make sure you tune in cam. It’s the nearest your going to get to European competion for a long long time. LOL

  24. Geddy Lee

    Cam , have you and those other Sevcovians who are obsessed with child abuse never noticed that the Celtic support do not retaliate with similar horrific stories about the Protestant faith’s abuse of children across Europe.

    A Female Lutherian (How apt) bishop in Germany had to resign when she admitted she was covering up abuse in he rchurch.

    The fact is, no decent person , no matter how ignorant, would ever use child abuse to somehow score points.

    Sadly , sevcovians love to scream about it from the ro0of tops.

    You guys really need to take a long long look at yourselfs.

    Start by trying to engage the brain before speaking.

    ps, your better than that.

    • cam

      Geddy,i pointed out that this isn’t about point scoring.Every deviant of every faith should be exposed.
      Why can’t this subject be debated?
      Its far more important than the fate of a minor league football team.
      I would like you and everyone to bring these stories to light.
      Did you read and understand my comments?
      Do you think the worldwide instances of abuse are made up?
      Do you think its correct that no member of the Catholic Church has been excommunicated for these offences but Cardinal Ratzinger can threaten that most severe punishment to those who expose it?
      I understand your instinctive reaction to a “hun” bringing this up.It wouldn’t be necessary for anyone outside the Catholic Church to mention it if those responsible had been judged by the laws of the country they reside in.
      You childishly mention sevcovians,,i mean WTF? as if that clouds the issue.Your own argument reduces it to a fitba related point scoring thing, not me.
      This is a legal blog?,,thats correct?
      Paul himself has blogged on issues that are close to his heart on religion.
      Don’t for one second think i’m point scoring.If some CoS minister,a Rabbi,an Iman or a Jedi Knight commits these crimes i want them exposed and punished not hidden away as a shameful secret.

  25. @1side, It seems the rules were changed last season to accommodate trialists to be played in the first round of the fish supper cup.
    I wonder where they found time to be implementing rule changes, with all of the other stuff going on. As the SFL no longer exist, we will probably never discover the reasons for such an illogical decision.

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/leaguedivision3/4905314/Ban-that-got-away.html

  26. Geddy Lee

    Oh yes cam, we believe you.

    Come on mate !!!!!!.

    Of course all child abusers should be punished, no matter which church they belong to . You seem to think by not discussing the subject, that we condone it. That is nonsense. Please, submit a guest post, but try not to aim it at any one faith , creed o or children’s home.

    I wil back you all the way IF it comes across as something other than point scoring.

    • Ed Paisley

      Bringing up sex abuse in the RC church is absolutely about scoring points and that is why we had that pathetic and disingenuous reply from Cam.

      You are a bit of a film buff I sense Cam so in the words of Ron Burgundy – stay classy!

      • cam

        So it shouldn’t be discussed Ted,on a legal minded blog?
        The wages of a fat talentless fitba player take precedent?
        The legalities of obtaining confidential info and disseminating on the internet for a hidden agenda are more important?
        Peter Kearney should just stay quiet and hope it all goes away?
        Some bevvied arsehole singing FTP is a much more serious offense?
        Yeah Ted.
        Its A Mad Mad World.

      • Cregganduff

        Of course your point scoring.
        Cam you are vermin just like the Wonka

  27. Geddy Lee

    OK on a lighter note….

    Congratulations to Dumfermiline for avoiding liquidation.

    It transpires their creditors have written off a cool 10 Million of the debt.

    I hope this becomes “Par” for the course (Did you see what I did there?)

  28. willy wonka

    My God ! Think of the children !
    Lol. Hysterical nonsense.

  29. willy wonka

    Meanwhile on the Comedy channel –
    http://thecelticnetwork.com/resolution.pdf
    “A number of recent examples of this including but
    not limited to the following;
    1.
    Unprecedented transfer of membership and granting of license to operate to an unqualified new club, facilitating queue jumping into the lower professional set-up, at the expense of existing qualified clubs, who had applied through the recognized process.
    2.
    Secret cross governance agreements to facilitate point 1. above, which took place during the preparation and contrary to the ethos of the SFA’s own published mission statement Scotland United A 20/20 Vision 2012, regarding trust and respect, as part of the future governance of the sport. Further the process for the above agreement is in direct contravention of the FIFA Standard Cooperation Agreement of 2004 Article 2.1 Basic Principles, which identifies Associations responsibilities outlined above.
    3.
    Participation of a new club in an SFA affiliated domestic club competition without proper registrationcompliance.
    4.
    The participation of the SFA, in an inquiry on improper player registration, an inquiry the SFA declined to initiate on the grounds that; the SFA required to be neutral, maintaining appellate authority status, then not only compromising that neutrality by
    participation but providing an interpretation on player eligibility that UEFA and indeed FIFA should examine.”

    Mentalists .
    Haw haw haw !

    • Lets hope it progesses as we would all wish it to do, As McCoist said when he demanded three men be named, give us transparency,

      publish the 5 way agreement, then publish every one that got paid by EBT at Ibrox, including ex employees that still took thousands of tax free money, whilst employed at other clubs and buying over priced players from RFC

    • You missed the bit about the wee tax case that asks UEFA to investigate and look at what is already in the public domain showing that both SFA and Rangers failed to observe the conditions set down by UEFA to obtain a licence to play in Europe that year.

      The other stuff also stands up although not quite as provable as the wee tax case skullduggery is.

  30. Geddy Lee

    willy, if it’s comedy gold your after , then off you pop to Munter media and check out the rantings on the thread about the possibility of facing the mighty Celtic anytime soon.

    I feel GENUINELY sorry for decent sane rangers fans when you read the drivel over there.

    I’m all for supporting through thick and thin, but one win against Albion Rovers and it’s “Moan then” to every team in Scotland.

    Especially love the total bammer who gives a run down of both teams , and has “the rangers” players better than Celtic in every position LOL.

    he tops it off of course with the worst possible abuse aimed at Lenny the Magnificent.

    I would reproduce it here , but as you can imagine, the language is vile, so I won’t deface the site.

    Still a fantastic read.

  31. Ed Paisley

    Rangers using the EBT tax dodge is one thing – probably saving the club £20m. The more serious issue was willfully fielding players without disclosing their full contractual remuneration. (BTW does that mean that SFA/SPL fines imposed on Bazza etc were underpaid?) But that is ancient history now.
    Presumably the regulation loophole discovered by Bro Nimmo Smith has now been closed.
    We move on without bitterness or rancour because we want to live together harmoniously in this wee country – and the New Rangers might even surprise cynics like me.

    • The regulation loophole has not been closed for the very good reason that it will be difficult if not impossible to find a form of words that FIFA would be happy with that conform to FIFA guidance on registration and impact on eligibility.

      In effect Bryson’s law says “these are the registration requirements but if you decide to ignore them the worst penalty will be a fine if anyone even finds out that you have ignored them.”

      Thus whilst FIFA lay down the law, the Bryson interpretation subverts the purpose of that law by making the consequences and risks of not following it that clubs would be prepared to take the risk.

      Additionally Rangers only got away with not revealing side letters because the governing body trusted what they were being told (at best) and ignored what they knew at worst. There has been no admission of either of these conditions created by the lack of proper governance by the SFA and a resolve to stop a repeat and until there is the game cannot move on.

      Here is a moving on statement by The Rangers.

      We recognise that those responsible for running Rangers currently undergoing liquidation did so in an unfair fashion be that DOS, EBT or unsustainable debt. We therefore give up all claim to trophies won under since 2000 when the DOS scheme was started and in return look for clemency on the question of compensation for the financial losses other clubs suffered as a result.

      The SFA in turn say: We recognise that we failed Scottish football in not only failing to apply due rigor when accepting what we were told during annual club licensing but in our mistaken attempts to keep a failed club working to a failed business model alive.

      The parties in position of authority in situe at the SFA (names) and still employed there take responsibility for the impact our misgovernanace has had on Scottish football have there resigned and have called in (business consultants) to examine the processes that failed and asked them to come up with recommendations that will not only prevent a repeat but will help restore trust in the way in which Scottish Football will be run in the future.

      That should do it.

      • Ed Paisley

        The Easdale brothers will be drafting such a “Moving On” statement right now – maybe. Superb post as usual Auldheid.

      • Arb urns

        @auldheid…. And if you are lucky enough to have formed a new old club don’t worry we will fine the old bit of it and you won’t even have to pay the fine…….now just a wee reminder about ” Sandys Law” don’t you lesser mortals think u can get away with missing the date off a reg form for a Scottish cup tie !!!!

  32. cam

    Good luck to Dunfermline,jobs saved,fans happy,whats not to like.
    Thanks for that wee lie doon lads.
    Sutton eh?,,,wonder where he learned that bigoted paranoia?

  33. portpower

    Pars United’s Bob Garmory said:
    “We thank each and every creditor who voted for this outcome.
    “We know that many have suffered greatly from the financial problems of the football club. We now pay tribute to them. This vote will allow Dunfermline Athletic to begin a rebuilding process under a wide spread of supporter ownership.”

    Pure class Mr Garmory.

    • Paul

      @portpower
      We know that many have suffered greatly from the financial problems of the football club.
      You see what he stated the financials of the club, not a seperate entity like another club who failed their creditors

  34. Monti

    If I had been around at the time in history, those remaining covenanters would have been rounded up and I …….well let’s just say it wouldn’t have been a good day for them!

    God bless the Catholic people & our Church!

    TIOCFAIDHARLA!

  35. Dave S.

    To summarise the thread (obviously I haven’t actually read all of it): Give me reconciliation, but not yet. The alternative is too much fun.

    Apologies to Saint Augustine.

  36. Monti

    Brother Walfrid we’ll never forget what you started it for, the great brother Walfrid a man of the faith,chosen by god to take care of his race,
    and with passion & love you founded our club…..GLASGOW CELTIC.
    COME ON YOU BHOYS IN GREEN!

  37. Monti

    @Graham
    Am I correct in saying your wife & kids are Catholics & USED to support Rangers?
    I take it you let your wife & kids see the bigoted anti- Catholic remarks you post on here?
    That must be quality conversation around the dinner table in your house.

    • cam

      Dear God!,i had to read that twice to believe that you just said it.
      If you had to sit in front of decent people and read the crap you spew in here you would be talking to yourself in 5mins.
      What a loonball.

  38. Mac Tomas

    @ cam…….Child Abuse……….will have to give you the benefit of the doubt here cam, but for the life of me I can’t see what it has to do with the current blog. Not point scoring!!!!!
    Not enough priests, bishops & collaborators have ended up in jail for me, not nearly enough, & I suspect that this issue has more mileage in it. However here’s the thing, It’s the Catholic Churches turn just now, it will be some other institutions turn tomorrow. There are active cases against Elders in the CoS at the moment & the Anglican church has just issued an apology for institutional child abuse. Protestant churches across America are seeing the insides of courtrooms more & more, & while the subject has been raised, many of the country’s elite educational establishments have historically seen violence & some other “dodgy” stuff perpetrated against children as “character building”……..we are awaiting the BBC documentary …. aye ok. .
    By all means, to those who continually raise the subject, if you are so concerned, why don’t you further educate yourself on the subject & propose to Paul McConville the possibility that he entertains your blog on the matter.
    Then there can be no doubts as to the motives for those who want to speak their mind on the subject.

    • cam

      Said my piece,it obviously makes some folk uncomfortable and the consensus seems to be ignore it and don’t talk about it.
      The BBC made a documentary about it.it was topical,it has legal issues attached and its just a tad more important than a players registration form or the possibility of a nuclear, well defo, super dodgy Tesco that sells spiv suits.
      Right,now what about the latest Charlotte snippet that proves beyond all possible doubt that senior officials within a certain organisation are members of a neo-nazi, terrapin torture and execution squad?

      Morag,,,yer right doll,,,total Elmers!

      • Paul

        No cam we will not ignore it Mark Daly is right on two counts, he has investigated the Church and Sevco. Was probably right on both.Mark well done on both for exposing sex crimes and tax theft.

    • @Mac
      That’s a fair comment. Nobody wants to sweep the matter under the carpet, but nobody wants their church, and their church alone attacked.
      The bottom line is these sickos will attempt to invade anywhere, where they can inflict their depravity on children. Every peaedo brought to justice, is god knows how many children saved.
      But as you state, not a topic for a sectarian related blog.

      • Mac Tomas

        @barca, Paul & cam………….I’m guessing we all have children, nieces, nephews or even grandchildren, & this subject deserves our attention, but we are hardly giving the matter the respect it deserves when it’s squeezed into a blog concerning the negative aspects of Scottish football.
        Pedophiles exploit situations where the powerful come into contact with the vulnerable, It’s a major problem for the Catholic church, but it’s not Catholicism’s problem alone. Nobody is running away from the topic cam, but the appropriate context hasn’t arisen yet for a proper debate.

    • Maggie

      @Mac Tomas
      Hi Mac.Here we go again,bloody Groundhog Day…….the “camster” trollmeister and deflector in chief for Sevco just cannot help himself.
      No matter the blog post or comments,he will eventually seek to turn things towards condemnation of the Catholic Church or clergy.

      His comments must be seen in the context of what criminal profilers call “leakage.” meaning cracks in his carefully crafted facade as a “melon twister” inevitably appear.He is fooling no one on here.I’m in team Cregganduff and Monti in regard to him.

      I mean seriously Mac,he is never more than 2seconds away from a comment.He’s either a housebound fantasist with no life,or Jabba has had him sectioned under the “melon twisting” act, and secreted him somewhere dark and dank in the bigotdome with only an I phone,a charger and a photie of HRH Walter to keep him company.

      Re his latest diversionary tactics.How many times do so many practising and lapsed Catholics ( and those of other, or no religions ) have to post their utter revulsion for,and condemnation of,the actions of Catholic clergy and hierarchy and their wish to see them punished to the full extent of the law before he,and others cease to raise this topic?

      Let me add my voice to the others……These people are pedophiles,pure and simple.Such is the nature of this heinous disorder that those afflicted actively seek out careers and societies where they can have access to children,especially in areas where abused children may not be believed if they find the courage to speak out.This is why the Catholic church has been a haven for so many of these abusers,especially in the past.
      They hid behind the vestments,and the deference of the congregation towards them,in other words,who would believe this of a priest.They should all be rounded up and tried and punished in one class action suit.

      The actions of the hierarchy when the extent of the abuse was revealed,is something else again.That they chose to cover it up and protect the abusers is,in my eyes,unforgivable.Those who did this should also be punished.
      Are they now willing to rectify these wrongs? Well it seems as if the new Pope Francis has shown willingness to do so though only time will tell.
      I await his future blog post on this.Is Jabba back from his holidays to help him,I wonder? Never mind,I’m sure Paul will be able to cobble together something intelligible from his idiocy when proof reading it. 🙂

      • Maggie

        @Mac
        That’s the “camster’s” future blog,not His Holiness Pope Francis’s blog.

      • Mac Tomas

        Hi Maggie………..where have you been hiding?… 🙂

        It’s such a serious subject, & the extent of it seems to grow & grow., what is really depressing is that some people seem to take great delight in this. A quick scan through some of the red white & blue sights & you can see the references to it are constant, Like I say, the media focus will eventually move to other institutions. Lets hope Celtic fans don’t start using it as a propaganda tool..

        • cam

          Wrong way round Mac the really depressing thing is the extent of it.
          I take no delight in it at all,but fortunately i haven’t been brainwashed into being scared to speak out.
          All it takes for evil to occur is for good people to do nothing,,in this instance,never a truer word spoken.

      • cam

        Well done Marge,,in an accidental manner you did address the subject.
        Hopefully the new pope will deal with the biggest threat to the church in a proper Christian way.
        Any church’s power is its congregation,it only takes every decent person to say no more,,lets get it sorted.
        When i “just drop in” to comment when i’m on holiday then i’ll know i’ve got a problem.
        You’re very well suited to be in your chosen team,,,you can tell a lot about a person by the company they keep.

    • cam

      There lies the difference Mac,,if Mark Daly revealed that the Orange Order,the Royal Family,RFC and the CoS were involved in this then i wouldn’t get all defensive and assume that it’s point scoring.
      Hunt them down ruthlessly,identify and question those who shield them,throw them in a cell and walk away.

  39. Marky67

    Is there anyone with a bit of accounting knowledge that can have a look at celtics accounts to dispel the rumour that Celtic have a hidden debt of 35 million pounds and rising and that there is a shortfall every year, this year being 11 million. The comments section on mcmurdo blog is full of posts from a forensic poster that has dissected the clubs accounts from top to bottom.

    • Mac Tomas

      It’s a non story Marky, it was inevitable that Sevco fans would reciprocate the interest shown by others in their old & new club affairs, & hunt for some dirt. There is reasonable speculation that Celtic have “some debt” .but they are not being hunted by the taxman or a list of creditors.
      Man Utd’s debt……………. now that’s real debt!!!!!!!!!!!

      You sure your’e a Celtic fan Marky? 🙂

      • Marky67

        Celtic daft Mac, I was pointed in the direction of this guy by another fan. He says celtic need operating costs of 60 million but are short even after champs league cash 11 million, have seven mortgages on the stadium (secured)amounting to 36 million 19 million of the debt is payable in full in 2019 and reckons under current figures the debt will be 85 million in 5 years. Apparently we cannot service the debt and it’s rising. All this by reading our accounts, it’s doing my nut in. The guy is relentless and must sit up all night pouring over our accounts.

    • Ed Paisley

      When Celtic’s accounts come out you can rest assured that every bluenose that ever played with an abacus as a child will be looking for dirt. It is extremely difficult for directors of a company to conceal material liabilities without the collusion of financial officers (who have signed up to their professional institutes ethical codes) and the external auditors. Then there are the legal fiduciary duties of the directors – I can’t see Eric Riley jeopardising his professional reputation not to mention a spell in the clink, if things went wrong. That kind of behaviour is for other lesser clubs like…well any company the Easdales are involved with (just kiddin’ Gav).

      • Ed Paisley

        So some anonymous financial expert says that Celtic FC has millions of pounds of short term debt secured on the assets of the company which they have fiendishly omitted from their statutory returns to Companies House. Presumably their external auditors and the lenders are all complicit in this breath-taking scandal (ffs!!!)
        Let me guess, Celtic are also selling heroin wraps from the ticket office and laundering cash for Al Quaida – oh I forgot the VAT carousel fraud that is being orchestrated by Danny McGrain and John Clark (advised by Mr Easdale).
        I’ve never heard as much shit in my life. Scattergun accusations from that mob who are wallowing in the gutter.

        • Marky67

          The mortgages 36 million is on the accounts for all to see, with the greatest of respect your comment is funny but tiresome. It’s worrying and would love an accountant to shoot him down

          • Mac Tomas

            Marky… Celtic reduced season ticket prices this season. A company in dire need of servicing it’s debts does not voluntarily reduce cash flow… That would be insane. Chico Green has voiced concerns that Sevco have effectively put a ceiling on their income at a time when they needed to raise ticket prices to up their cash flow, to match spiraling expenditure.
            I’ll be sleeping soundly tonight……. 🙂

            • Doc

              The Celtic accounts are fine, a few days after they were made public there were some folk trying to stir things up, these issues have been dealt with, and defused numerous times, not just on this blog, but on various Celtic blogs. The ‘forensic accountant'(aye right) involved appears to struggle with the definitions of words like income, expendature and profit. The only gripe I have with the Celtic accounts is the perpetuity which is only ~1.25% of turnover, therefore extremely managable.

            • Marky67

              Thanks for replying lads

  40. lordmac

    RANGERS RUN OUT OF FUNDS, or Directors, the rangers fund development DIRECTOR
    JIM WHITELAW as been told, to mind the door on the way out.

    • Doc

      This is the sort of thing I love seeing on this blog. I would love to see a legal point of view on this and other things like the introduction of the ‘bedroom tax’, the proposed changes in legal aid, the PM’s recent move to limit judicial reviews, etc. as well as reading about the issues with rangers, from the SFA rules to the Companies Act, via the insolvancy laws and back again (if certain posters’ are to be believed). It makes for absorbing reading.

  41. JimBhoy

    Fire Bad!! Scottish football good!! European Football Armageddon..!!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23512481

    SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster points to Scotland enjoying the highest crowds per capita in Europe and is confident the league changes will provide a boost for domestic football.

    Has the Scottish powers that be hired Jake Irvine??? Is Jabba writing for the BBC under the pseudonym Neil Doncaster..

    Is he counting all those “forced” Jambo SB sales that will effectively be meaningless in a couple of month’s time..

    The question Mr Donkeyster should be answering is compared to 5 years ago has there been an increase or decrease on the number of people attending Scottish football matches? Instead of insinuating the numpties recent pushed thru changes are making a difference..

    Message to Doncaster, Regan and their inept cohorts.. 99.9654321% of Scottish footie fans think you are all joke figures who have shown nothing but an apetite to save their own highly paid, highly expense, jolly ridden jobs at and and all costs… Now there’s a stat for you that is as close as the one you spouted..

    Here’s an idea.. The biggest boost to SB sales EVER could be achieved this season… SB sales off the radar..
    — IF Regan and Doncaster grew a pair, held a joint press conference announcing that they and their peers would like a vote of confidence from fans of the top 15 supported teams in Scotland and each fan who buys an SB before the start of the season would have a single vote (good vote they stay, bad they gtf).. Stadiums would be full, the numpties would be hyping up their achievements to new prospective employers..

    Pitchforks and Torches sale at the Barras this weekend..

  42. JimBhoy

    Kelvin Wilson to leave Celtic in a cut price deal… Lennon rages as Bangura to face Celtic… Ambrose with an eye on a move to the Premiership…Ledley linked with move back to the Premiership…Celtic turn down bids for Samaras… Wow all that in 3 days, do Celtic have a big game coming up? 🙂

    • JimBhoy,
      it must be CL time, it’s a wonder we have 11 players left the way the MSM print this rubbish, proper football related stories, not to be found, yet they will sell Celtic players all day every day

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