I posted on Wednesday about the Pinsent Masons investigation into the links between Mr Green, Mr Ahmad and Mr Whyte. I suggested that even the choice of the eminent QC Roy Martin to oversee the investigation would not be enough to protect the investigation from accusations of bias and blinkered unfairness, should it find that there had been no “wrongdoing”.
I was wrong to think that we would need to have the verdict before people questioned the inquiry and the independence of those carrying it out. My Twitter feed following the post was filled with comments which were, to say the least, sceptical about the outcome and the general reaction was that the “Establishment” would once more rally round Ringers in the same way as some perceive the First Tier Tribunal and the Nimmo Smith Inquiry doing.
I should say that I do not fall into that category of observer, although I can understand why, although mistakenly, some think that the legal processes are being moulded to fit the Ibrox team.
But I am delighted to say that I have seen a news story which shows that we need have no fear about any whitewash or of a guilty verdict being swept under the carpet.
Mr Murray, the Rangers Chairman, met with the Chairman and Secretary of the Rangers Supporters Trust earlier in the week.
As the Trust reported:-
The RST feels that the remit of the current internal review should be as broad-ranging as required and not centred on a few technical matters. The Chairman gave both RST representatives assurances that this was indeed the case. The investigation will be thorough and fans will be briefed on the findings.
Furthermore, the support needs clarity regarding the resources available to the management team for the coming period. We stressed that we are in favour of continuing to act honourably towards the SFL and to continue to play our way through the divisions.
The club Chairman has agreed to further meetings and we will afford our members the opportunity to submit questions for the agenda ahead of them. The Chairman’s passion for the club impressed and it is obvious he is as fervent a supporter as the rest of us.
Now, call me a pedant (as indeed someone did yesterday) but Mr Murray whilst being positive in saying that the fans would be “briefed” about the report, seems to be missing the point. Of course there are duties, even if not legal ones, owed to the fans. However there are legal duties most definitely owed to the shareholders and potential shareholders in Rangers. These are the duties with which the Chairman is bound to comply.
If, for some reason, Mr Murray was not happy with that, then he should have insisted on the company not floating, or he should step down.
But his comments mean that the fears that the report would be locked away, never to see the light of day again, seem unfounded.
The report will lead to the fans being briefed. By extension the wider world will be told the truth! After all, the Chairman has spoken.
Malcolm Murray, Chairman of Rangers
To misquote that great political rogue Richard Nixon, “There will be no whitewash in the Blue Room!”
The 37th President of the United States
Posted by Paul McConville
Random Thoughts Re Scots Law by Paul McConville 
Should that not have been ‘whytewash’ Paul?
Or blue rinse?
Was your reference to ‘Ringers’ intentional or a mistype? Either way, I’m using it from now on.
The LNS verdict hinged controversially on the terms of the question posed. Maybe Mr Murray should reveal the question now so we can consider whether the answer is worth knowing.
@MCfc a broad remit is bollox, sounds like they have nothing to focus on. There should be key areas under scrutiny and others if/where necessary. A clear remit should be the start point however no-one has a clue what they are actually looking for, in fact I would go as far to say they are looking for nothing to come out of this anything negative could be catastrophic in a number of ways..
The MO here is make it broad enough so as not to focus on any fine detail..
@JimBhoy
I share your cynicism when it comes to internal inquires in all their forms. At best they are usually for PR purposes (ST time), usually to kick the issue into the long grass (avoid SFA inquiry and see out the season) and often an exercise of finding the facts so that inconvenient ones can be buried (i.e. prepare RFIC’s defence against CW claims).
But, unfortunately for RFIC this is not only an internal matter and their finding are subject to external scrutiny – outside Ibrox and outside the friendly environs of the Scottish football establishment.
Fear of a more rigorous examination of the financial artifice at the centre of The Ringers was the rationale for instructing agents on their behalf. TRFC own the report and can direct it any way they please. Once received they can edit it to fit their agenda. It will be a whitewash, Note how they managed to frame LNS questions and the SFA view that EBT’s did not confer RFC (1a) an advantage. I wonder what part EBT Ogilvie played in that perversion of the truth.
Morning Paul, If this is indeed the case, then it is welcome news & I’m looking forward to the investigations conclusions.
The Lord Nimmo Smith ‘ no sporting advantage gained’ verdict, sickened me to the pit of my stomach. I have absolutely NO faith in the Judicial system when it comes to dealing with the establishment club. I EXPECT a whitewash! The only thing that will restore my faith is VERDICTS that actually HARM the establishment club, this whole business is a cover up from day one. This is the WORST case of cheating,lying & flagrant breaking of the rules in British football History, a national disgrace!!!! In Conclusion, the rangers I find you GUILTY & sentence you to life WITHOUT involvement in Scottish football….take them away!
See while the current ( pun intended) chairman is of a mind for openness & transparency……Mr. Murray, who told Fran Sandaza NOT to bless himself in front of the fans? do you condone this? are you investigating this & will you terminate this persons contract if found guilty? If not why not?
@Monti
“current pun” Now,now M,what have you been told ? 🙂
I never said current pun, I said pun intended 🙂
Monti may I ask how old you are?
Your posting comes across like the hysterical tantrum of a four year old whose mummy has told him off for being spiteful.
Grow up mate.
Face the facts.
Rangers fans & Club have been screwed over by Murray & Whyte. We have been been punished for their handling of the company’s business affairs. It has been legally proven Rangers did not cheat as you continue to scream. But you don’t accept that. Tough.
Grow up and face facts.
Rangers won their 55th title.
We are playing in a sold out stadium tomorrow.
Club goes on. You hate that fact.
Ah well. How sad. Never mind.
No you may not ask, mind your asbestos dust mask tomorrow, I hear it’s meant to be windy.
The newco = sevco 5088 = Agent Whyte.
Agent Whyte is the rangers.
@Blackgoosey.
The fact that the Rangers fans were fleeced is their problem to deal with.
The fact that Rangers and Sevco continue to bring an unseen level of corruption to Scottish football, makes it the business of every Scottish fitba’ fan.
It is also the business of Hector and the many manyy creditors who were also fleeced.
I only hate cheating & your dead team have cheated the tax paying public & Scottish football & you will never be allowed to forget it, trust me.
Asking someone’s age on an internet forum? Spooky.
LOL – “I will only accept a verdict that suits me and fits my prejudices”
You should be permanently removed from any potential jury duty.
The only thing I’m prejudiced against is , lying, thieving, cheating bastards in Society & football….rangers (IL) managed to do this for many,many years….rangers were scum!
Adam do you think Catholic the rangers players should be allowed to bless themselves in front of the the rangers fans, without receiving abuse? If you do, have you asked anybody at your club as to why Sandaza was told not to & are they actively seeking the person/persons responsible?……can you answer this question asap please?
I believe religion in football is overplayed and used as a point scoring exercise, however if a player has true religious beliefs and wishes to cross themselves then I believe they should be able to without receiving abuse.
As for Sandaza, im not aware as to who told him not to bless himself though I am not doubting he was told.
As an aside, but in relation to your question, 3 of the most revered legends who will be playing on Monday are Catholics in Novo, Albertz and Amoruso. You will find it hard to find a Rangers fan who dislikes any of them, particularly the first 2. As it happens, one of them is at my table on Monday night. I may ask him the question as to who told him and how he felt.
And now that I have answered your question truthfully, will you kindly answer one back ?
Do you believe that all people found to be serially avoiding tax through made up tax schemes should be rounded upon, called cheats and treated with the same contempt you treat Rangers with ?
It was a yes or no Adam & you fudged it…..oh dear.
I never fudged anything. Yes i believe players should be able to cross themselves.
I said that.
Now….my question ?
You still haven’t answered my question Adam, I said the the rangers players blessing themselves?
I was answering your question but to avoid any idiotic doubt, I believe that Rangers players should be able to cross themselves without receiving abuse.
Now my question please. And TWIS question as well please.
What does it say about a culture who find themselves offended by the simple act of someone crosssing themselves? Sandaza is not the first player at your club to be told not to bless themselves….nor I suspect will he be the last
Do you think Celtic fans that are pro union, of which there are many ,should be able to fly the union jack at Parkhead without recieving abuse
And can you answer both questions ASAP please Monti 🙂
No Butchers apron should be allowed to be flown at Celtic park…..ever!
Good morning every
1 great read agian a wonder if they are worried they will say 1 thing and agent whyte will play a tape saying another lol
@mick
Oh I think that’s a given,mick.Wee Craigie is oiling the wheels of his trusty recording device as we speak ( type ) Testing….testing…..:-)
Hi maggie more fun ahead murrays wanting it open so he can bail out him and walter are the only 1s not spivs and with rangers in there blood all the rest are crooks in suits the carcass is dry and ready for the insinirator it’s the calm before the final storm
Maggie
The blue tit is back, do you think the corsica knight is a wee reference to the dodgy holiday he has been away on??
morning comrade!
Good morning Monti comrade and cyber friend hope your week went well
Paul – if the finding is in the negative though – that there is evidence that CW does have a case – would it not be suicidal for Murray to admit it? This would be beyond a Ratner’s moment surely? Surely they have to get to the end of the season, hope that CW has used up all his tape recordings, get the ST in and pay CW off as best they can, hoping he can do it by installments…….and then make the financial cuts they should have done last year.
Somehow I cannot see bring in a QC who specializes in property cases to help them does not mean that they are in serious trouble in the Battle of the Sevcos and need to find a loophole urgently to help them stay with the keys to the Big Hoose….
While much hilarity was given out in the press anent the valiant Craig grabbing property of the book and film (possibly film documentary?) rights, I wonder how much of a smart move this actually was. While the case against ‘the proven liar’ might look strong on that point, it seems that CW has a habit of pulling the rabbit out the hat when it comes to backing up claims. The thought of that book coming to fruition might have a few erses twitching, one would imagine.
As for the statement. It has to be remembered it comes from the RST.
They are run by idiots and have their own troubles to seek when it comes to getting things right, which is wholly ironic.(or is it moronic)
@Adam
The leadership of RST are morons? How have they shown themselves to be intellectually deficient? They sound like genuine supporters to me. I think the boycott of Dundee Utd was ill advised but Chico takes the blame for that (along with Leggo).
I presume you are aware the heads of the RST are the same guys who run Follow Follow. enough said already.
Why are they idiots? did they disagree with your blinkered views at some point in the past? Let’s face it Adam, when it comes to Rangers (IL) one has to speak in past context.
Deary goodness me. This sums you up. They are morons because, in the main they are the very type of Rangers fan you paint everyone as.
See above answer to Ed.
This is almost idiotic beyond belief.
The RST statement includes the words
“We stressed that we are in favour of continuing to act honourably towards the SFL and to continue to play our way through the divisions.”
I find it alarming that the trust finds it necessary to even mention this in a statement. Is there actually an alternative to acting honourably and playing their way through the divisions? By making the statement it suggests a dishonourable course of action might be under consideration!
or that there is even an option to being honourable……
“play their way through the divisions”
Judging by the football on display it looked like Sevco had a plan to “plough” their way through the leagues!!!
And of course that is absolutely no concern of your good self, who can sit back in any seat you like to watch the Galactico’s.
Season books for the midden?,,,nah turn up on the day and pick any seat you like.
morning PEEP
Well said Charlie…
charliedon
May 3, 2013 at 8:51 am
The RST statement includes the words
“We stressed that we are in favour of continuing to act honourably towards the SFL and to continue to play our way through the divisions.”
—————————————————————————————-
I find it alarming that the trust finds it necessary to even mention this in a statement.
Is there actually an alternative to acting honourably and playing their way through the divisions?
=========================================================
They could act dishonourably and look to the SFA and SFL for a brotherly favour.
You know Charlie, their normal behaviour.
The RST statement reeks of condescension. The might as well have said “the mighty Rangers have thought about it and decided to play fair with the diddly SFL (meantime)”.
Including the words “are in favour of” clearly infers that acting honourably is open to question!
” as much a fervent supporter as the rest of us”
Has the chairman got his initials tattood on his neck? Has he got lots of cheap gold jewellery? Can he sing the billy boys? And is he in total denial?
If so , then perhaps he is as fervent.
@Steven Brennan
🙂 though a bit unfair Steven,lots of “ra peepul” have their names tattooed on their inner forearm,with the name of their football club on the other forearm.It seems many fonts are suitable for this artistic work.Maybe this is why we never see Campbell Ogilvie sans jacket 🙂
I must take my leave of you all ( sob ) for the holiday weekend,have fun bhoys.
I also like the phrase ” as broad ranging as required”
Not very broad then, the question is what have the investigators been asked to do? And by whom?
A bit like the legal and police investigators they wont shit in their own nests.
Hope your not away nursing the old git PB
Hahaha
or owns a dog called, hammer, sledgehammer or Chisel.
Or coisty or Gazza or sash or broxy
Paul,
Mr Murray’s openness suggests they know the answers and the answers may damage CW and/or CG but they won’t damage Rangers or the company. When are the season ticket sales due ?
Hi Niall
How can they be confident that it won’t damage Rangers if their former, and current, Chief Exec, biggest shareholder and saviour, is shown by the investigation to have run a coach and horses through company law and AIM regulations. If the transfer of assets from Sevco 5 to Sevco S was illegally executed, for example, isn’t that armageddon for Rangers because they will potentially have to fork out millions to Mr Whyte?
Ed,
They must think either CW is onto plums or the liability is on CG/Ahmad, and not the investors who paid 5.5 million in good faith to the company he formed. I assume the investors also have some protection under the Company Law.
I don’t see how Sevco 5088 could have paid for the assets when the investors put their money into Sevco ( Scotland), and you don’t own the assets until you pay for them.
Niall are you proposing that, Greem & Ahmad lacked the sophistication to ensure that none of their dealings would back fire on themselves, or that the structure of the take over was so intricate that blame can be laid at the feet of individuals & away from the corporate body?
Also, if they genuinely believed that CW “was on to plums” why go to the huge expense of an investigation they can barely afford? to find out if they are correct?
Mac,,
Until we know all the facts we are all just speculating, but I think we can safely assume the investigation is to appease the fan’s fears which may affect season ticket sales, and this investigation would take place even though they knew CW was onto plums. They do accept that after the lies of both CW and CG the fans are entitled to be suspicious of any unsupported declaration of innocence.
I saw no signs of Green’s sophistication, he met his doppelganger in Craig Whyte, the hyena fighting the vulture over the carcass springs to mind.
@Niall.
Obviously a carcass needs to be dead, to be a carcass. 🙂
@Niall
“I don’t see how Sevco 5088 could have paid for the assets when the investors put their money into Sevco ( Scotland)…”
So even though you’ve been told numerous times where & how to find the statement from a The Rangers spokesman which clearly states that Sevco 5088 bought the assets which were subsequently transferred to Sevco (Scotland) you’re still in denial?
statement or no statement, the assets were purchased directly by Sevco Scotland, not Sevco 5088 which means Niall is spot on.
Ed I think their confidence comes from knowing regardless of what extra unpleasant items are thrown on top of the stinking pile that is already sitting there, they can rely on the press to indulge in a hand holding. exercise with the clients, I mean fans. Something along the line of there there, it’s going to be alright…..
I’m convinced, along with many others this is a PR move. concerned only with the short term objective of punting ST’s.
The press will fall into line on this as it did with Murray, as it did with Whyte. & as it did with Green. Nothing has been learned, or rather hands will be placed over eyes & ears as required.
Sally’s statement about” “cleansing” was a little strategic nugget about soothing the anxious. A wee soundbite for the short term.
Whilst the klan leaders all bang on about getting to the truth and being open and transparent, they are still all taking part in a scam that effectively saw a club wipe away it’s debt – millions of it – whilst carrying on as if nothing happened.
If Hearts or Dunfermline go bust, do you think they will be able to pull off the “transferred history” scam?
I’ve always said, if the current Rangers want to trade as the old Rangers then they should pay up what the old Rangers owed. There’s nothing sinister about it – it’s a simple fact of life that we all have to pay our debts. Unless of course you are Rangers, where you can go bust and magically re-appear debt free (faciliated by our governing bodies no less).
So whilst Malcolm Murray and his cohorts at Ibrox are shouting about Charles Green & Craig Whyte and keeping the focus on them, quietly and un-noticed they are pulling off the scam where they can claim to be the same club but debt free.
As for Green – what if they do find he had links to Whyte? Will they contact the SFA to get the membership withdrawn because let’s remember, it was a conditional membership and one of the conditions was that Green had nothing to do with Whyte. Of course not.
This is not about finding truth, it’s about finding their version of it, to allow them to sweep another lie under the carpet.
Scottish football is rotten to the core, with a rotten governing body ignoring every rule in the book to cling on to a rotten carcass of a club that actually went bust.
Dunfermline probably wont. Hearts may have a small chance. Comparing any of those 2 against Rangers(and Celtic if they ever find themselves in that situation) is silly though.
Stephen,
When you are ejected from Europe, the SPL and have to ply your trade in the bottom tier of Scottish football without most of your players, then it is impossible to carry on as if nothing happened.
Stephen – You write
” I’ve always said, if the current Rangers want to trade as the old Rangers then they should pay up what the old Rangers owed.”
I don’t see how anyone can disagree with you on that, if a reputation for honesty, integrity and fair play is part of the history and tradition they wish to carry forward.
That’s exactly what it’s about. I don’t care about trophies or the bragging rights etc. Rangers won more league titles (we can talk about whether they were won legitimately another day), whilst we won slightly less but we have the European Cup to our name. I’d never swap it in a million years.
The point in all this is that by one way or the other, the SFA have facilitated a way in which a club that went bust owing millions, is still in operation today. How can that be? Bought history? Transferred history? Holding company? No they never – they went bust! But ways must be found to faciliate a way for the poor Rangers fans to avoid the “L” word at all costs.
Why? They aren’t any better than you or me, so why should they be treated any differently?
Isn’t it the duty of the governing bodies to insist on truth and integrity and to ensure rules are there for everyone? It’s quite obvious they have one aim and one aim only – Save Rangers – even if it is done with lies and deceit.
And if the foundations of Scottish football are lies, secrecy and deceit – how long can it keep standing? Who could ever really trust it again? Knowing what we know about the reality of this scam and knowing the type of people who run our game – will people just turn away from the game?
“Without Fear of Favour” – Actually, there’s been plenty favours and a helluva lot of fear.
Absolutely
Were the English FA biased towards Leeds as well when they NEVER completed a CVA, were sold, and subsequently liquidated ?
Or is this only an issue in Scotland ?
This is what the SFA should have done to rangers fc (IL).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18535793
Adam,
If it is not an issue everywhere, Then I suggest it should be!
I am not going to get all moral on you, but I think you would agree that corporate governance has a massive effect on society.
For the best part this corporate monster is largely unnoticed and the corruption unchecked.
However, in this case it is happening right under the nose of Scots, and quite frankly, The Scots are voicing their displeasure at this under cover monster.
Aye, there is the added pleasure it is Rangers involved. But by the same token, it is no reason to turn a blind eye.
Darlington 1883 applied to join the Northern League as a ‘New Club’, after the collapse of Darlington F.C.[3] Under FA regulations, New Clubs are required to join with a different name from the club that they are replacing, and so the wish of the club to register under the name ‘Darlington F.C.’ was not possible. A deadline imposed by the FA meant the board were unable to wait for the results of a pool of supporters, so the name Darlington 1883 (with no “F.C.” suffix) was chosen.[6]
gort you won’t be surprised to learn that I fully agree, but can I add another item to the oldco same as newco debate.
Sevco want to keep their history & traditions, really????
what part of the history are they so keen to hold on to? trophys & glory of course, but hold on a minute, we’ll jettison the debts & we’ll forget about the philosophy the club operated under while harvesting most of the glory.
The latter items just do not fit in with the dignity & integrity narrative we’re constantly being asked to swallow.
we will now be served a diet for future consumption of “Rangers, the eternal victims” . Assuming of course the worst never happens.
Stephen, Green DID have links to Whyte – hence the former’s departure, though I’m sure we will be told (again) that he was just acting ‘in a personal capacity’ and that no one could possibly have known, or demanded to have known anything during all those months of his tenure. The duties of directors only go so far at that club. Uniquely. Absolutely !
A pitiful fine for casual racism (unidirectional from senior to junior employee) in a workplace where high standards apparently matter so much only induces feelings of cringe and embarrassment.
When will the SFA act in relation to the licence ? Every day of inaction in that regard corrodes further their credibility and fans’ motivation to continue supporting the sport, let alone their preferred team. Does anyone in that organisation have a clue how to conduct thorough due diligence ? You would think that they would have been especially diligent follow, following the Great Debacle.
I think you Paul, like me, have a deep and iirreducible faith in the goodness of human nature. That is why I Expect there to be a thorough and genuine investigation and the Rangers board will meet their obligation to reveal the unvarnished truth to the investors and AIM regulators.
BTW Paul – on more than one occasion recently you have referred to them as “Ringers” – is that you ringing alarm bells for the Gers supporters to heed?
BTW2 – My first para is shit. Rangers will attempt to get away with a whitewash. There is way too much embarassment and regulatory peril for them to do otherwise.
” I think you Paul, like me, have a deep and iirreducible faith in the goodness of human nature.”
Good morning Ed, I too share your faith although when people welcome destruction it shakes this faith.
It just goes to show that passing the fit and proper person test doesn’t guarantee the person will act in a fit and proper manner. I wonder if the SFA will also ban CG from any involvement with Scottish football if he is proven to have done wrong ?
The SFAs rules have been shown to be utter pish. They either don’t understand them themselves or are deliberately bent. A useless corrupt bunch of tossers who have sullied the good name of our beautiful game along with that rotten corpse of a club. Get rid of them all and finally kill off that embarrassment of a tribute act.
The pain and suffering caused by them is probably irreversible and will continue to corrode our game until they are STOPPED. I am disappointed in Celtics lack of bollocks regarding this because as far as I can see, the majority of my brothers within the Celtic family want them dead.
” The pain and suffering caused by them is probably irreversible ”
Good morning Fra, thank goodness its Friday, Thatcher caused irreversible pain and suffering and we paid for her funeral, who said the world was fair. I assume Rangers fans pay tax and have suffered the same financial loss as you and me.
” because as far as I can see, the majority of my brothers within the Celtic family want them dead.”
What about the irreversible pain and suffering this may cause, or are Rangers fans exempt from your absolute principles ?
Now finally you have reached the heart of the matter Fra.Rangers are Scottish fitba,we call the shots,we set the rules,we change them and everyone else falls in line.
Glad to clear that up for you,now go spread the word amongst the tooth gnashers.
Moooooooo
Shields up!!!
Phasers tae malky
Cameron & Niall….Is the suffering of the tribute act fans not a penance for the harm they have done to Scottish football? They were told time and again that their financial model was unsustainable but as long as they were on top, then they were blind to the Armageddon heading their way. Isn’t karma a bitch.
Fra,
I suppose the fans could have boycotted Ibrox and put their club into liquidation.
Niall..but they love their club and hate everyone else. One almighty chip on their shoulders. No sympathy for their predicament or their fans anymore. Initially felt for my sevco supporting mates but with the grandstanding and lack of contrition, Iwant them dead
Paul,
It is an impossible task to ascertain right or wrong, before first ascertaining what the allegations are, and viewing all the evidence.
When MM says the fans will be briefed, is he being literal? Will they just be told, “Craigy done it!” Or will it be a long brief, such as, “Craigy did it and a big bhoy helped him!”
I don’t mind that Sevco treat their own fans as dafties, they have form! But to try it on the rest of Scotland goes beyond the pale.
The only outcome I would find had any credibility, would be for Roy Martin,(Or Big Hoose to his pals) to state that the matter needs to be determined by a court of law!
I wouldn’t hang my coat in the Ibrokes cloakroom just yet. Not with Craigy, the hi-fi ninja of Motherwell still at large.
Coming to an ice-cream van near you! The Craigy tapes. Far better than those silly chimes. Now wouldn’t that be justice!
Paul – Your headline
” Rangers Chairman Murray Confirms Report on Green/Whyte Allegations Will be Disclosed”
Rangers Supporters Trust earlier in the week.
” The investigation will be thorough and fans will be briefed on the findings.”
I don’t believe that “briefed” can be interpreted as meaning a full disclosure of the report. There is plenty of squirm room in that word.
“briefed” = told what they want to hear.
I’ve always said, if the current Rangers want to trade as the old Rangers then they should pay up what the old Rangers owed……………………………
The SFA take a rather more limited view, if you want to keep your membership and history then pay all your debts to UEFA and Scottish football. Its all about vested interests, the relative nature of morality.
cannot disagree with anything there Niall!!!!
Too true Niall.!
….and Celtic are part of the SFA……a big part.
Th following sentence gives a hint of what really will happen.
“The investigation will be thorough and fans will be briefed on the findings.”
My analysis.
Two representatives from the RST fan group will be given a brief synopsis of the report, and Mr. Murray’s ‘interpretation’ of what it all means.
They will be sworn to secrecy in case the Feenyuns find out.
As I expected, Chuckles did not turn up at Hampden yesterday to answer SFA racism charges.The proceedings were completed in his absence.
A spokesperson from the club said the sentence imposed, although almost non-existent, was ‘fair’, because he ‘didny really mean it’.
Carntyne,
I have never quite understood how an abbreviation can be universally deemed as offensive or racist, is ” Scot ” not offensive because we deem it so ?
Is it because Pakistanis themselves find ” Paki ” offensive and racist ?
So if Celtic fans or Rangers fans deem ” tic ” and ” gers ” as offensive then we must all comply with their sensitivities ?
Niall Walker
May 3, 2013 at 9:57 am
Carntyne,
I have never quite understood how an abbreviation can be universally deemed as offensive or racist, is ” Scot ” not offensive because we deem it so ?
Is it because Pakistanis themselves find ” Paki ” offensive and racist?
So if Celtic fans or Rangers fans deem ” tic ” and ” gers ” as offensive then we must all comply with their sensitivities?
========================================================
I am no expert on what is offensive so I’ll leave that to others.
My remarks were aimed at the punishment.
Compare John Terry’s comments and subsquent punishment.
The SFA did Chuckles a favour.
Who’d a thunk it?
@niall
The whole of modern British society has decided that the abbreviation is offensive in this culture because of its origins in discrimination and race hate. To follow your argument – who could be silly enough to believe that a centuries old corruption for the Portuguese word for a simple colour could ever be offensive.
As an apologist for racists you are a very poor one – and I suspect you are one yourself..
I dont think he was condoning the use of it, he was simply stating he doesnt understand why it became offensive.
I dont either.
But i would never say it or use it. And as a member of “modern Bristsh society” i respect that it is deemed an offensive word.
@adam
Shame on you for defending such a blatant attempt at racism denial..Niall is clearly trying to diminish the racist nature of the word and its use by questioning it’s origin and seeking to establish some equivalence to “scot”, ”tic” and ”gers”.
You disappoint me – I thought better of you.
I dont believe he is. If he is then he is wrong in my opinion.
I still dont understand why it is racist. Yet, I agree it is. As silly as that sounds.
I have asked the same question in company many a time and never really got a decent answer. I’ve looked it up on here and cant really see a decent answer. Trying to educate yourself on it doesnt mean you are racist.
@adam
Is this your usual selective blindness to things you don’t want to see or maybe you’ve led a sheltered life
“paki” is a work chosen by racists – often groups of aggresssive young men – to insult and intimidate minority groups. They rarely check the racial origin of the subject to it can equally be used against those of Indian, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan or native South American ethnicity.
Are we getting anywhere? What’s the next gap in your understanding.
mcfc,
I am neither an apologist for racists nor am I one, and your suspicions are devoid of evidence and reason. I have never used the abbreviation with the intent you prescribe but if others have sullied the term then I accept my intent may be misinterpreted by others. I am sure racists can communicate their intent using the full nomenclature, so I fail to see how banning the term bans the intent.
@niall
You’re dancing on the head of a pin – nice dancing but dancing all the same.
Are you able to say that “paki” is a racist term.
Are you able to condemn all those who use it publicly as such.
Are you able to say that its use publicly as such is prima facie evidence of racism sentiments
mcfc,
Paki is considered a racist term and I condemn its use, and by definition it is legal evidence of racism.
What has any of this to do with my question on abbreviating names ?
@deNiall
Your obsessive interest in the etymology of the word could be so easily mistaken for racism denial. I’m think we’ve done all we can for you here – why don’t you try:
Imnotaracistbutidontunderstandwhyicantuseracistwords.com
Mcfc
I think the point is when did it become rascist? I think when it was followed by the word bastard then the meaning is clear.
However
Person from Afghanistan is afghani
Person from Kurdistan is a Kurd
Person from Uzbekistan is an uzbeci
All the above and lots more are permitted in society, so Niall was asking why is the Pakistan derivation different.
@SB
The focus on etymology is of little importance and is a simple deflection by deNiall and Adam who would clearly like others to believe that it has no racist connotations in the Green case.
Maybe deNiall and Adam can research the etymology and eductae us all instead of boring us all senseless with their “i don’t understand why it’s wrong” bollox.
That was my view and question as well SB. I suspect that deep down mcfc knows this, but prefers to try and engage in point scoring and tit for tat based on the poster rather than the post.
Well done though for puting your head up there to also be accused of being a racist sympathiser.
@Adam & deNiall
So what is the result of your quest for knowledge – why is that abbreviation so much more offensive that the full word – why is that abbreviation so offensive when other abbreviations are not – we need to know what you have found as you seek enlightenment – it it is clearly at the heart of discourse on racism in a multicultural society.
In no way was i defending the use of the word by anyone. CG should never have said it. Its easy for you to throw accusations around like this to the likes of myself and Niall who dont bow to your agenda.
fortunately there are more sensible people like SB who can see it for what it is.
The word is racist. The word should not be used. There is no justification for using the word in our language. I simply want to know why and when it became offensive on the premise that other shortened versions appear on all cases to be ok.
@adam
Even deNiall has finally got it – below – or you can just read my comments above – mystery solved – ambiguity gone – room for racism deniers collapsed.
———————————————————————————
Niall Walker
May 3, 2013 at 3:28 pm
It is racist because the term was adopted by racists.
Should being found guilty of racism & publicly admitting he conned a fellow “businessman” not go hand in hand with failing to be a fit & proper person to run a football club? I wonder what the SFA will do about this. That’s right, sweep,sweep.
Steven,
You have a fully functioning brain and an inquiring mind.
“Ringers” I’ll settle for that, they certainly are dead ringers for the old club, might even see a bit more ring fencing in the near future too!
Niall
Nothing to do with morality, relative or otherwise. Just the application of financial law which especially in this case seems to work against the injured parties.
My point, which I made above is that a reputation for dishonesty will always follow Rangers, irrespective of what the law says, if they refuse to pay their debts.
” Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.”
King James Bible.
Sadly, history will view Ranger’s F. C. as a whore.
The RFC whore turned round and said the the CFC punter,
“you know how you kept accusing me of cheating on you hunny?,well i was dipping your wallet for years and now Billy Nimmo says you can’t get your hands on my lovely cups.There are plenty of other willing customers who wanna play with me,so you enjoy yourself in your wee east end bedsit all alone,i’ve goota get my warpaint on as i’ve got a big party at the weekend”
gort,
You have to be very careful when you attack institutions for being dishonest because they do not comply with universal principles. To use your religious analogy, is the Catholic church being dishonest by not complying with the law of the land on gender equality and equal opportunity ?
In the real world people and companies go bust everyday, and going bust is deemed an appropriate punishment in itself, no need to tattoo it on their forehead for life.
To be honest I would be saying the identical things if it were Celtic, you may have a vested interest much like the SFA.
Niall
Are you showing your true colours by dragging the Catholic Church into this debate? I don’t believe in or practice that faith and judge them as I judge others. I am very disappointed in your reply, but not terribly surprised.
gort,
I am an atheist and it was you who quoted Scripture much to my disappointment, if you use religious analogies then don’t be surprised if I reply in kind.
Hoisted by ones petard comes to mind Niall.
Niall
” if you use religious analogies then don’t be surprised if I reply in kind.”
And out of all the religions in all the world, you just happened to pick Catholicism to have a go at despite the fact that I quoted the King James Bible. Being an atheist doesn’t preclude you from being sectarian, which in this particular case you were.
gort,
I was going to use Islam but then I would be accused of racism.
Being an atheist does indeed preclude me from being sectarian, atheism is not a sect, it is a belief in the non existence of gods, all gods including the Catholic god, I don’t have any secret favorites.
Niall
You seem to believe that if you get in the last answer, no matter how silly or illogical it is you have won the debate.
Going on the logic of your most recent piece of nonsense, the sectarian hordes that follow Rangers are to a man God-fearing Christians.
You write
” all gods including the Catholic god”
Just can’t resist can you? Also I am noticing a distasteful smugness that is becoming more evident in your posts
Well Leggo in another “exclusive” hears that the cash strapped,bleeding ÂŁ12million a second,padlock any minute,bankrupt Gers are thinking of freezing the SB prices knowing that 50,000 loyalists will follow follow.
All we need is a team and a ball,the gallant pioneers will take care of the rest.
Just accept yer fate bhoys,,,second best in every way apart from whinging.
Ed,,,i’m greetin wi laughter at you lot,,,,its party time.
Cam all your bravado is fooling know 1 yous are doomed it’s spiv after spiv lol at sevco the joke of sport
“Just accept yer fate bhoys,,,second best in every way..”!!
Great irony there, second best to Dundee Utd, Inverness & Queen of the South for starters in the 3 cup competitions. 3RD DIVISION winners, second best to 2nd division winners. Second best in every way indeed!
Leggohead
RANGERS are set to reward their fans by announcing that season ticket prices will be pegged for next term.
I can reveal that there have been talks inside the Blue Room as to how best sort out the season ticket situation ahead of an early summer sales drive.
For Rangers do not want a repeat of last year and the club knows it needs supporters to rally to the colours again to keep the Rangers recovery on track and help stay in tune with the spirit of the New Gallant Pioneers on the long trek back to the top.
(So the SPL need the loyal sevco support, remember they said it, all will suffer. They have not pegged back the prices they know that what they are serving up is pish and some of the sevconians are waking up to this fact, their club was set to raise prices.)
My information is that there will soon be an announcement and that the news will be good news for supporters.
(Here again the dog wagging the tail keep the promised land story going, good news on the horizon hurry hurry buy a ticket for the greatest show on earth.
Rangers hope it will also be good news for manager Alastair McCoist too as he needs cash to attract new players to Ibrox in order to try and provide better football.
(They hope it will be good news for Ally,again trying to lead the fans into thinking must be money. Oh and Ally needs players to play better football nice wee kick in the balls there without realising what he has just said. And to confirm what the fans already know under Ally they have been and will continue to watch pish.)
Though, despite the criticism heaped on him from some quarters in recent weeks, McCoist has been operating under a number of severe restraints throughout the closing campaign.
And then there was the Scottish Football Association’s vindictive and unlawful transfer ban, which Rangers were blackmailed into accepting, despite that Court of Session ruling, in order to get their licence to play from Stewart Regan and Peter Lawwell’s SFA.
McCoist is still stuck with that unlawful ban, which means he will only be able to sign Bosmans this summer and they will not be able to play until after the SFA allow them to be registered on September 1st, almost six weeks into the new season.
(Ahh, the selling point remember all those nasty people who hate you lets punish them by buying season books and signing nasty songs and boycotting them)
Add to all of that the fact that fans delayed buying season tickets last summer right up until the last minute as uncertainty and doubt still hung over Ibrox.
(And there is no uncertainty this time round, Ha Ha you could not make this up)
However, there is no need for a repeat of that problem, for surely this summer Rangers fans will flock to the colours in even greater numbers than the amazing 38,000 loyalists who coughed up for season tickets last year.
(Nice prediction considering there has been no announcement from your so called independent charade)
Such a show of force, such a declaration of loyalty, would be a slap in the face from Rangers supporters to the struggling Scottish Premier League.
(Slap in the face, surely must be a kick in the Balls to sevco fans knowing there might not be a sevco.)
It would also add almost insult to injury to Celtic and to Peter Lawwell who has actually been forced to slash the price of their season tickets for the often half empty Parkhead.
(what is the difference here slash prices, freeze prices. Is both a reward to fans or does the Celtic one constitute desperation for a team who have enough money to outdo sevco and all SPL clubs for many years. And is freezing prices a nice gesture for loyalty to fans who have put up with sharks who have run their team into the ground and are still doing so as i type. Leggoland you are the worst PR man ever and long may you continue with your rants as you are without doubt a brick.)
Hi Paul as opposed to this statement from Leggo only a few days ago… 🙂 The guy is a tit.
“….. to make up for the fact they are having to reduce the cost of their season tickets by ÂŁ100 a pop in order to entice their supporters, fed up with the one horse race the SPL is in the absence of Rangers, to buy them and then actually turn up to watch the poor fare which is on offer.”
Niall
The proponents of moral or ethical relativism maintain that all questions of right and wrong must be judged in their historical, geographical and cultural context. This may be relevant in regard to how the ‘Rangers Family’ see their position in Scottish society. In their belief that they (being “The People”) are and always have been, above laws meant for lesser mortals, Rangers’ supporters probably feel a deep sense of injustice. Not realizing that if the full rigour of the law had been applied to its misdeeds, their club would probably not now exist.
gort,
You are the one who is judging Rangers outwith the historical, geographical and cultural laws, why should they be made the exception to the rule ?
Did I miss a meeting in 2012 when going bankrupt became a moral sin from which there is no forgiveness ?
Your moral indignation is based on an absolute that does not exist.
Niall, errr… not quite with you on that one.
Why should Rangers bear a moral responsibility for their debts when no one else does ?
“Coz they ur Rangers ya plum !”
cos its SPORT ya ant………thats the bit none of the bears understand………
ESS PEE OH ARE TEA
Niall
” You are the one who is judging Rangers outwith the historical, geographical and cultural laws, why should they be made the exception to the rule ?”
I didn’t make any judgement in the post to which you replied, I merely pointed out the correct meaning of moral relativism and how it may be affecting the Rangers’ mindset.
‘Moral indignation’? Nope I can’t see any of that either, just putting forward a thesis as to why Rangers’ supporters feel they have been crucified, when most neutral observers feel they got a slap on the wrist.
If you have any further questions about unfairness in the Catholic Church, perhaps you could address them to someone who is interested in defending said institution. My opinion is that you are letting yourself down badly, by trying to score a cheap point.
gort,
I responded to this point:
” My point, which I made above is that a reputation for dishonesty will always follow Rangers, irrespective of what the law says, if they refuse to pay their debts.”
You are promoting the spirit of a law that applies only to Rangers and no one else, and that lets you down.
gort the WATP dimension to this saga is the gorilla in the room, or the nettle that will not be grasped. Why? because it is considered bad form to do so. This quaint little diversion of our society plays a greater part in this issue than has been given credit.
Stuart Regan’s observation of “public unrest” was perhaps not that far off the money. The Marching Season is upon us. What type of season it will be perhaps lies with events south of the Clyde & of course fleg issues across the water.
Mac,
You are absolutely right, we should all judge people on their actions, I condemn all the nutters who spew out sectarian and religious bigotry but I don’t condemn the vast majority who simply want to support their football team.
Mac Tom
‘ the WATP dimension to this saga is the gorilla in the room, or the nettle that will not be grasped. Why? because it is considered bad form to do so.’
It is worse than ignoring its presence snarling in the corner there are many who deny it exists at all.
Mac Tom
Doing a 100K on Sunday around parts of Jimbhoy’s native county Monaghan. Cycling has taking off big way over here in the last year or so. Its got so that there will be hardly a weekend between now and September that there isn’t a couple of runs to choose from. If a club or charity wants to raise a few pound, invite the cyclists, charge them ÂŁ10-ÂŁ20, send them off up the road and give them a cup of tea and a few sandwiches when they arrive back. That’s probably a bit harsh, but the main problem is that everyone is joining in and quite a few don’t have the discipline and experience for cycling in large groups. As I know to my cost.
What a horrible day for PB to sail off into the sunset.
Hopefully he doesn’t suffer a Poseidon adventure and end up in a strange land where up is down ,where a team trying to do well in Europe slash money off their season books when at least 800,000 are trying to buy them,where after years of i’m all right Jack,Celtic wanna “help” the wee teams.
Man the lifeboats!
Monti
May 3, 2013 at 10:05 am
Why are they idiots? did they disagree with your blinkered views at some point in the past? Let’s face it Adam, when it comes to Rangers (IL) one has to speak in past context.
========================================================
I never thought I’d agree with Adam, but I too think they are idiots.
‘Dodgy’ Mark Dingwall is a founder member of the RST, and is also well known as the editor of the Zombie fanzine Follow Follow.
A blog on what one Rangers supporter thinks of him can be found here:-
http://theweeproclaimer.wordpress.com/category/mark-dingwall-this-is-your-life/
It is a little biased but very funny.
Dingwall is constantly referred to as a ‘confirmed bachelor of our parish’.
Whatever can that mean?
Under the heading:- Mark Dingwall And The Bid For Power Dingwall’s agenda is laid out.
Here:- http://theweeproclaimer.wordpress.com/2012/08/30/mark-dingwall-and-the-bid-for-power/
From what I’ve seen of Dingwall on TV, (and that was a lot in the early days of the media frenzy outside Ibrox) and his comments under the name Grandmaster Suck on FollowFollow, I have the feeling the accusations might contain more than a little truth.
So in my opinion, any Zombie fans who would let the Grandmaster act as their spokesman are idiots.
One last point.
There are question marks over just how many active members the RST have.
Speculation has it in the low hundreds.
I think if you understood and debated all my views instead of resorting to cheap shots and name calling, you would find you would agree with me more.
You are spot on with above.
@Adam Talk about blowing your own trumpet..FFS…
Not blowing anyones trumpet. Im not saying my opinions are more valid than anyone else or that my opinions are better..FFS…
Adam
“Not blowing anyone’s trompet”
Maybe just a little toot?
Adam
May 3, 2013 at 11:12 am
I think if you understood and debated all my views instead of resorting to cheap shots and name calling, you would find you would agree with me more.
=========================================================
Oh, I think I’ve got your number Adam.
I think your complaints about name calling would be better addressed to cam, and his alter egos, carson and Violent.
And of course you’re not a shrinking violet yourself.
When washing your dirty linen in public don`t let one of the four corners of the fabric face outwards.
Is Niall the new Jabba mini-me.
He’s been working long and hard pedaling the old company/club garbage and some new asset/liquidation twists too. He’s also questioned whether one of the most offensive racial slurs in Britain is actually offensive at all.
What is his purpose here. Does Jabba fear that too many bears are drifting here for information given the vacuum of MSM journalism on some fundamental issues. Does Jabba see the need to feed the bears comforting background noises to give them solace as they are exposed to some terrifying theories.
Niall who are you – Jabba, Dickson or just a hired hand with a script/
mcfc,
Who are you and why are you here ?
@deNiall
I’m here to learn, debate and challenge.
Why are you here ?
Is the hourly rate good or is it just part of your job spec. Maybe it falls under “and other tasks required by management”.
mcfc,
I am here to teach you how to learn, debate and challenge, the evidence to date suggests I will be rich beyond my wildest dreams.
@deNiall
So the money’s good ?
Gizza job – I can do that – I can read a script.!
Niall Walker
May 3, 2013 at 1:13 pm
mcfc,
I am here to teach you how to learn, debate and challenge, the evidence to date suggests I will be rich beyond my wildest dreams.
=========================================================
Evidence is not something you are concerned about unless it is beneficial to your third team.
You have produced no evidence todate for me to be concerned about, unless you count insults and jibes as evidence.
Paul. The truth? Aye right!
Paul your faith in the scottish justice system is to be admired
To the layman watching it leaves a lot to be desired
The opinions of the Learned made the whole thing a bodge
In the case of the gers from the truth is it was a dodge
Another QC trotted out to enquire and blame
The path to conclusion will of course be the same
We have looked in every nook n’ cranny he will tell
Nothing to see here, but can’t get rid of the smell
^^^^^ Sweet Poetic Diction ^^^^^
Paul. I trust you to answer this question better than anybody else .what do you think NEWCOS current financail position is .
Skint but wee Craigy and Chuckles pockets are bulging
In the interests of transparency, no one really knows. I’m sure the fans will be ‘briefed’ in due course. Due course being after the sale of season tickets.
Cam is greetin’ with laughter again. I am pleased that my cyberbuddies are happy. Rangers are going to hold SB prices for next season? Yes but the pies are going up to ÂŁ125 each and they are mostly horse testicles.
I know someone else who is greetin’ with laughter – agent double oh zero Craig Whyte. Right now he is sitting in his racquet club in Monte Carlo wearing his pink Ralph Lauren polo shirt thinking about the cash he will take out of the supporters pockets in the very near future. That includes you Cam – your hard earned cash will be going to support this idle sponger’s comfortable life.
Ed Paisley feels sad for the Rangers fans, but Cam and Craigy Whyte are having the time of their lives greetin’ with laughter (oh shit – just deployed an illeism just like Chico).
And of course thete are intelligent people on here who say the P*ki word is not necessarily racist.
I assume you guys are just being polemical, to paraphrase Ronaldo, and you don’t really mean it.
If you can’t see that an adult using that word is unacceptable today, in any context, then I am shocked. What did Shereen Nanjiani say recently – she hasn’t heard that word used since she was at school and was being abused by the other children, and she finds it utterly offensive.
What about the word “coloured” I hear you say. That word is now old fashioned but I’d be surprised if anyone regarded it as racist language. We all try and keep up with modes of language in these sensitive areas but we know which words are utterly unacceptable.
Ed,
Can you read, no one is saying the word is not necessarily racist, we are just asking why it is racist, now do you understand this or do you wish me to post it in your first language ?
@deNaill
So what have you concluded – why is it racist – where have you searched for the truth – what have you found – or would you rather retain some ambiguity that you can share with the other seekers on here?
It is racist because the term was adopted by racists.
@deNiall – well done – it took a a while you finally got it – it’s not the length of the word that matters but its meaning and usage.
” Also I am noticing a distasteful smugness that is becoming more evident in your posts. ”
gort,
Since my arrival I have been called an artist, a Hun, a racist, a bigot, a zombie, a troll and a wind up merchant just to name a few, all because I do not agree with everything that is being said.
….but all you see is evidence of my distasteful smugness.
That hurts.
Niall Walker
May 3, 2013 at 2:40 pm
Since my arrival I have been a bigot, a zombie, a troll and a wind up merchant just to name a few,
all because I do not agree with everything that is being said.
======================================================
Not at all Niall.
Its because most people don’t agree with most of what you say.
” Its because most people don’t agree with most of what you say.”
Then they must learn how to debate like a grown up instead of hurling their toys out the pram.
Niall Walker
May 3, 2013 at 4:49 pm
” Its because most people don’t agree with most of what you say.”
Then they must learn how to debate like a grown up instead of hurling their toys out the pram.
=======================================================
I suggest you have a look back at some of your own posts.
Although you try to appear reasonable, which doesn’t work very well in your case, there are quite a few examples of you going off the deep end when things aren’t going your way.
Niall Nailed in Armageddon Night and The Afternoon…………
Buttons to Ignore………………………………………………..
Being a decent chap , Niall, rest easy the behind the scenes boys are falling into place to bring your disgraced club out of this. The possee has been formed believe me.
Continuing the decent chap theme ask any East Fife fan who Julie is.
I have never heard Julian Danskin being referred to as ” Julie “, but I can understand the link.
Niall Walker
May 3, 2013 at 2:44 pm
Ed,
Can you read, no one is saying the word is not necessarily racist, we are just asking why it is racist.
=========================================================
Why indeed.
A few years ago when Rangers were brought to task by uefa, for the singing of the Billy boys and the famine song at Ibrox , a Rangers fan on the Radio Clyde phone protested…”Whit aboot Selic? They sing bigoted songs”.
He was asked for an example.
He replied…”they sing You’ll Never Walk Alone”.
Does that offend you?
“Aye, it pure winds me up”.
“They’re bigots so they ur.
That’s an example of the easily offended.
Mind you if Celtic fans sang Mary Had A Little Lamb some Zombies would be offended.
But they would probably steal the tune and re-arrange the words so that it was truly offensive
99%of Celtic fans want the SFA TO DISBAND and THE OLD Rangers crippled and striped of anything they won,
we do not mind them starting up as a new co, as we know the fans will follow but we will be ready for that challenge when the time comes.
fans will be fans and any decent ones will see this, and support the new found team leaving behind the embarrassment it has done to there integrity and Honor. as the staunch loyalist prides it self on integrity hopefully it will be there for all to see, and they accept the situation their Brothers put them in. and they demand from the terracing that they start afresh. as sevco 3 the new Rangers Fc.
Friday Quiz Night…….. who is this mystery poster?
” I do not believe”……………..
” you have produced no evidence”……………….
and deNiall is?/ ffs