Maggie! Maggie! Maggie! Myth! Myth! Myth! – The Independent Points Out Much We “Know” About Her is Wrong

The Independent today has excellent coverage of the late Baroness Thatcher and her legacy. I would thoroughly recommend it to readers.

One particular piece is the one I have posted extracts from below, addressing ten things we all know about her and her policies, which turn out to be wrong. The full piece is well worth a read and it can be found here.

Remember when reading this that the ten bold headings are the myths.

And, especially when we come to the last one, can I ask that any discussion does NOT descend into a tit for tat abuse session? I have added some comment about that one at the end of this piece.

—————————————————–

1 She commanded the support of the silent majority

Margaret Thatcher won three elections, two of them by large margins, but she was never as popular as her ardent admirers imply.

She set a record for unpopularity as PM that has not been matched by John Major, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown or David Cameron: 16 per cent satisfied and 79 per cent dissatisfied in March 1990 (Ipsos Mori).

2 She called Nelson Mandela a ‘terrorist’

We have searched the record and spoken to one of her most recent biographers and can find no such comment.

Also, she did not, as frequently maintained, say: “Anyone who thinks the ANC is going to run the government in South Africa is living in cloud-cuckoo land.”

There are plentiful records of Thatcher condemning apartheid; … and her government’s efforts in lobbying for Mandela’s release were crucial.

3 She was a dyed-in-the-wool anti-European

She said in 1988 – “Britain does not dream of some cosy, isolated existence on the fringes of the European Community. Our destiny is in Europe, as part of the Community.”

No other British politician “surrendered” more sovereignty to Brussels than Thatcher.

Her simplistic rhetoric, and the anti-European Thatcher myth fostered since she lost power, have framed, and diminished, the European debate in Britain ever since.

4 She was no democrat

One of the very first things she did as an MP was to introduce a Private Member’s Bill to open council committee meetings to the press, thus shining a light on these hitherto murky gatherings.

5 A true Conservative, she cut tax and slashed public spending

Despite the fury of opponents over “Tory cuts”, and the ardour of supporters of tax cuts, Mrs Thatcher while in No 10 was notably unsuccessful on both scores. The tax burden (measured by the Institute for Fiscal Studies in the form of total government receipts as a share of national income) started at just above 40 per cent in 1979, peaked at 45.4 per cent in 1982, then fell below 40 per cent in 1990. Similarly, public spending rose as a share of national income, then fell to a level below that which Thatcher inherited from Labour in 1979. For all her time as Prime Minister, public spending rose in real terms, but after 1982 it rose less quickly than the rate of growth of the economy as a whole.

6 Thatcher won the Cold War

Well, not exactly

The truth is that, although Thatcher was even more of a Cold War warrior than her partner Ronald Reagan, the unravelling of Moscow’s external empire in Eastern Europe and the disintegration of the internal empire that constituted the Soviet Union was brought about by none other than the Kremlin itself.

And, as history has repeatedly shown, once authoritarian regimes stop being authoritarian, they collapse, almost by definition.

7 She was a strong champion of grammar schools

The truth is that, as the Education Secretary in the Heath government between 1970 and 1974, she was responsible for the closure of more grammar schools than any other holder of that post in history.

8 She transformed Britain into a property-owning democracy

Thatcher famously gave council tenants the right to buy their homes (at a discount), thus becoming, in the eyes of her mythologists, the leader who hugely expanded “the property-owning democracy”.

As new research shows, a large number of these homes ended up owned by wealthy private landlords and property companies. In the London borough of Wandsworth, the GMB union has found, nearly 40 per cent of the 15,874 homes in council blocks where tenants acquired the right to buy are now owned by private landlords.

9 She was rich beyond the dreams of avarice

Thatcher was not personally rich. Sources close to her have indicated that she was supported by wealthy friends.

The house in Chester Square, where similar properties sell for more than £6m, was bought … for £2.4m by a company based in the British Virgin Islands, presumed to belong to a friend, and it’s unlikely to pass to her children.

In the end, it may turn out that the grocer’s daughter who encouraged us all to make loadsamoney omitted to do so for herself, and certainly not on the Blair scale.

10 She never had any dealings with the IRA

She twice authorised extensive contacts with the IRA via both the intelligence services and senior civil servants.

In her memoirs, Thatcher wrote: “It was possible to admire the courage of Sands and the other hunger strikers who died, but not to sympathise with their murderous cause.”

In 1990, not long before her resignation, she authorised secret contacts with Martin McGuinness and the IRA while the republican campaign of violence was still going on. … The exchanges came to be regarded as an important component of the peace process.

———————————————————-

Regarding point 10, it does make one think that, if the former Prime Minister had sung the sentiments quoted in her memoirs in a Scottish football ground now, she would have run the risk of arrest!

Her sentiments expressed in the last section put it very well. “It is possible to admire their courage whilst not sympathising with their cause”.

Maybe some commenters here could pay attention to that – and as Baroness Thatcher herself nearly fell victim to that struggle, her opinion is one well worth considering.

Posted by Paul McConville

 

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169 Comments

Filed under Politics, Press

169 responses to “Maggie! Maggie! Maggie! Myth! Myth! Myth! – The Independent Points Out Much We “Know” About Her is Wrong

  1. jim62

    Similar article about her “personal” qualities by Tom Utley in the Mail the other day!!

  2. Richboy

    Your post simply goes to prove that we think that we know but, in the end, we only know what we think. Many posters, particularly from an Irish Republican viewpoint, think that Thatcher put them down. In reality, she brought pragmatism to the issue and eventually was the solution, albeit somewhat delayed. (the 1985 accord is widely regarded as the first step in allowing Dublin a say in the affairs of the North, no small step in the continuing peace).

    Those who decry her stance against the Unions forget that the same Unions ( and their cohorts in the Labour Party)were destroying this country and dragging us ever closer to their masters in the Soviet bloc. Thatcher destroyed them through necessity and ensured the democratic future of the UK.

    Nationalised industries were sold to alleviate their drain on the economy of the UK. Too many closed Union shop Nationalised industries were bleeding the economy dry due to incompetence, laziness and sheer bloody mindedness, leading to ridiculous strikes and intimidation of decent workers.

    At the end of the day she did some things wrong, but when she left the office of PM, Britain was no longer the “sick man of Europe” and was widely regarded as an International Super Power.

    RIP Baroness Thatcher, much loved.

    • Gav

      And the whole of the UK are now reaping the bitter crop she sowed. In times of hardship you cannot sell financial services to those with money as they invest it in gold till economies change. However, with a weak pound you can sell coal and afford to ship it across the globe. You can fashion quality steel girders and sell them to cash rich, growing economies , such as the Arab states, Brunei, Venezuela, or our European neighbours in Germany. You can sell quality clothing to consumers concerned by slave trade eastern sweatshops. You could maybe even build an aircraft carrier or two and transport your ‘once’ finest navy and army around the world to uphold and further the ideas of democracy. Unfortunately you can do none of these things wearing an Armani pinstripe three-peice and Gucci loafers.

    • Monti

      ….and Despised!

    • George Collins

      The unions weren’t destroying the country; that is fantasy. Without the unions, people’s ability to earn a decent living, to live in an equitable society, was gone. The reason you think otherwise is because of the constant bombardment of negative imagery, supplied by the media; the media aren’t owned by disinterested observers.

      Intimidation of decent workers presumably means “scabs”. If you have a right to work, what right does the company have to downsize/relocate/offer someone else your job? Why is it that the police have always taken the side of the businesses? After all, if the gates are closed or the way in is blocked, scabs can’t get through. No way through, no violence; forcing their way through, with the help of police, means violence ensues. Who’s fault is that?

      Your assertion that the economy was being bled dry because of the incompetence, laziness and sheer bloody-mindedness of the workers/unions doesn’t hold water. Sure some people are lazy; show me a workplace where you don’t get lazy workers and I’ll show you the US prison system or N*ke factories in Indonesia. What was frequently the case was that, to counter factory owners desire to increase their gains, at the expense of the proletariat, corners would be cut, leading to a deterioration in wages/safety/security. The workers/unions’ response to threats would be: go-slows, down-tools, walk-outs, then finally strikes. They worked. Thatcher, on behalf of her corporate overlords sought to end all that – and she did.

      The Soviet Union was brought down by constant meddling in its economy and its international relations by banking institutions using the CIA and whomever else would do their dirty work. It’s the reason that the O.N.I. was targeted in the Pentagon. The Labour Party’s masters weren’t in the USSR; Kinnock et al. did their best to turn the party away from its roots towards the shit-cunt that it is now.

      To say that Thatcher didn’t cause a deterioration in relations with the IRA/Irish people is wrong. Because she was negotiating means nothing. You can let someone think they’re getting somewhere when in fact they’re not. Stringing them along, if you will.

      Britain, by being shorn of its industrial/manufacturing base, has no real economy to speak of. By relying on oil wealth, Thatcher knew communities would be starved, society would fracture: divisions would rule. It’s the reason, also, that Venezuela, Russia et al. are trying to re-fund manufacturing in their respective countries, so that they don’t have to rely on the energy industry.

      Baroness Thatcher much loved? Not really. Hardly loved. Her policies ushered in an era of Me! Me! Me! “But I own my house now.” Yes, the same house people have always stayed in. The ones who sell theirs, meet someone then combine their bought houses for a bigger one, then lecture the “lower classes” on the ethic of hard work, are Britain’s shame. A fucking disgrace.

      We are told “I worked hard to get where I am.” Really? Turning up for your job like you’re meant to? And weren’t mortgages cheaper? “Yes, but it helps if you’re hard working and use your intelligence.” What intelligence is that? The intelligence of growing up in a better area? The intelligence to realise the system is fucked. Or is it just plain, old snobbery.

      As you can see, Thatcher’s legacy is being “felt” all around you: heroin addicts everywhere (who do you think let the drugs into the country? Oh, wait, it’s the immigrants, isn’t it?) Hopelessness, despair – all the product of the loony left, no doubt.

  3. mick

    Great read Paul opinion is devided with her if you poll is nice parts of the south it will says she’s good if you poll in working class areas she’s bad at the end of the day she was Tory icon and a socialist hate figure to me she was the devil in nickers .

  4. mick

    It’s strange we’re am heading now she was there in 88 at hampden there will be no mention of her unless banner and singing by both sets of fans can’t see it thou just have to wait and see The scarves want a mag goes gone banner lol

  5. cam

    Well thats any notion of a quiet Sunday oot the windae.
    The only occasions i voted for any party was for the SNP,simply for the reason that if a bunch of cheating,lying clowns were gonna govern me, then it might as well be Scottish ones.
    Nowadays there are very few career politicians,just money grabbing chancers with no spine.
    For me, Maggie had many flaws,but history has shown her legacy to be better than Blair’s.
    Britain could do with a few more with her spirit.
    Sorry,what’s that you say?
    TD’s how many?,,,,oh i reckon about 40 odds.

    • Budweiser

      cam. Agree with nearly everything you say. Blair was Maggie’s apprentice.
      Some might even say ‘ her familiar ‘.
      Btw. My copy and paste skills are coming on a treat. I’m thinking of starting a new whiz kid website.
      ‘ Budding Skills For Two Fingered Computer Programming ‘ – Kinda got a ring to it, doncha think?

      • cam

        That newtz is a bad influence on you.
        My photon torpedoes are armed and i’m not afraid of going to ram speed.
        If you and newtz take any more action against my club then i have two fingers for both of you,,,now cease and desist!

    • parmahamster

      “Nowadays there are very few career politicians,just money grabbing chancers with no spine.”

      Nice one, cam.
      You’ve never been more accurate in all your posts here than with that comment.

    • JimBhoy

      Hate politics and those who presume to represent us….

  6. brian

    Lets see,1982 I was a young AB onboard HMS Antrim,when I came home I was a hero according Thatcher and the rightwing media,yet 2 years later myself my family and my friends were the enemy within,good riddance to her,I can only hope her vindictive spiteful ideology gets cremated with her.

  7. Fra

    Decimated communities but we all know ‘it was a necessity’ to cure the country’s ills. Don’t make me laugh. She cared little and was bereft of compassion especially towards the working classes, especially the Scottish working classes. Whole sections of the Scottish industrial heartlands were turned into ghettoes and are nothing more than drug ridden dens today.

    NO SYMPATHY FROM ME.

    • cam

      I see that some lovely folk in one of those republican hovels managed to spend their welfare money in a dignified manner.
      http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/margaret-thatcher-death-party-held-1831151
      And the Coyote is getting quite anxious about something that in his own words isn’t really in Celtic’s favour,,,,aye right!
      http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/celtic-chief-peter-lawwell-fires-1831113

      • Bill Fraser

        Since when did it become a criminal offence to hold a private party and sing songs in a pub?

        • cam

          Who said it was criminal?
          I don’t know if a bunch of wee boys acting like dafties in a hovel has broken any laws and honestly couldn’t care less.If it keeps things like that indoors away from the general population then thats a good thing.
          What about big Peter eh?
          I mean Ally could learn a few things about winning pie eating competitions from the Coyote.
          I want the Coyote on Masterchef as the pudding taster,,,he’s gotta talk to a wee ginger pudding every day.

          • “If it keeps things like that away from the general population then thats a good thing”
            Orange Walks Anybody?

            • cam

              Ah good morning Mac,i do hope the seething turmoil in yer wee napper didn’t keep you awake.
              When the majority of folk in Scotland say its time for Orange walks to cease then that’s what will happen,,,its called democracy old bhoy,,,no bombs,no bullets,just ballots.
              I will get the old bowler out and march round the garden with you in mind Mac.
              Now its Sunday and i don’t want to annoy the neighbours so i’ll just use an old Marines chant

              I don’t know what you’ve been told
              Eskimo pussy is mighty cold
              you may say Glesga’s green and white
              but i just think you’re talking shoite
              Craigie bhoy is your new hero
              his bank account will soon be zero
              Celtic will always be second class
              now pucker up and kiss my ass

              C’mon Mac join in its liberating,,,keep in time ya thick sod!

      • Fra

        If it is indeed welfare money, it’s probably because of the wicked witches policies still resonating in the lads communities to this day.

        Cam, why was the poll tax introduced in Scotland one year earlier than England ????

        • cam

          Because Maggie was a fly bugger and used us as a testing ground.Just like her goverment tried to use Scotland as a dumping ground for nuclear waste.
          She was English through and through and we were second class in her eyes.

        • cam

          Fra,in what universe should a society pay lazy arseholes enough in benefits to smoke and drink?
          That money could be freed up to build hospitals,fund the NHS,help the really needy,pay old folks more money to pay their energy bills.
          Trust me theres gonna be a backlash against the scroungers in society and if the opposition are really interested in helping the working class then lets see their manifesto having a main policy item in bringing to book the scum bankers and money exchangers and corporate tax dodgers.

          • Fra

            Now now Cam. You know as well as I do that most people on the dole are there through no fault of their own. Of course there will be those who cheat the system. (I call them bankers). The difficulty arises when the testers of these rules are in it for profit, resulting in genuine sick claimants being hounded and harassed and in extreme cases, taking their own life.

            It’s quite easy to fall into the net of dole dependency and there but for the grace of god go many. The Tories would have you believe there is a land of milk and honey awaiting and dole claimants are too lazy to access this jackpot.

            Cam, I don’t know your background or wish to know but what we do know is sensationalist stories in the sun are not a true reflection of the miserable existence most suffer on the dole.

            I totally agree with the point of the bankers and corporate tax dodgers. Catching one of these fat cats would be the equivalent to catching hundreds if not thousands of those from the working classes.

            • cam

              Fra,in the 80’s i changed jobs no problem,never took a penny of dole money,i was too proud.
              Any job would do even if it meant i was working for peanuts,,,well they got a monkey!,,,,
              The Sun is a Tory ass wipe rag and so fitting that the Donegal loon tried to sell his principles doon the river for a quick buck to them.
              It’s so fashionable to give it the “i’m a socialist who believes in equality at all costs malarkey” and then watch these creatures wallow in their filthy lucre.
              I know families whose entire ethos is to get on the high rate of DLA in any undignified manner and they give their children a great example.
              Shrink the society of Britain down to a smaller model and say you have 100 workers,hunter gatherers,who are out their busting their nuts to keep the remainder in the essentials and then imagine you have 5 clowns who say “do you know what? i’m a bit fed up with this work pish,its a bit dodgy out there,,i’ll have a wee lie in”
              Now i’m a caring guy and everyone should get a wee rest, but after a week of watching breakfast tv wi a can of Kestrel these muppets are getting my toe up their arse rapid!
              Anyone who comes out with the touchy feely crap doesn’t stay in the real world.
              Right where’s ma toe tectors!!

          • FairBairn

            Cam, April14, 2013 at 1:46 pm
            I saw myself as part of the Clydeside red wedge, I was always against lazy scroungers. This, however, applies to all of them, rich and poor. The ‘ working man’ is anyone who works and therefore makes a contribution to the community, from the highest to the most menial.
            No matter how much wealth anyone has, it should be earned. I don’t see that in the super rich. There is still an imbalance for which the solution remains ‘work in progress’.
            Various ‘isms’ have been tried. I’m sure we’ll get near an ideal state eventually and it may take another few generations, but the internet and its ability to give voice to anyone is a big help on the journey.
            I also believe very much in democracy and in the good sense of the majority. Again, it’s not perfect, but it’s the best anyone has come up with so far.

          • Monti

            So would your dead football club, paying tax & creditors……….wonder how much tax Newco have paid?

          • Tecumseh

            Build more hospitals and schools . . .puleezzee…..give us a break…..

            Have you noticed how much taxes we are paying….???

            Is there a village without a school….????……or a hamlet that is not in reasonable bus ride from a school…????

            Is there a person in the land who falls out side the NHS’s greedy maw…???

            We should be dropping hospital sized blocks of solid gold in to towns and re employing miners to tunnel out hospital wards from the monolithic blocks…..the tax money we are paying for all this…..!!!!

            Nearly everyone lives within reasonable distance from a Catholic Church ….or any other kind of church you care to mention…….yet they are funded mostly from pre taxed income….and they manage to scrape bye…..

            Where does our tax…..REALLY….go….???

            In the smallish town where I live I see lots of four wheel drive Landrovers….at £25,000 and more on garage forecourts…..I could pop out and buy one tomorrow….if I was stupid and wanted to show off…..and still have a few baw bee’s left over……if I’m not buying who is…..and where do they get their money…???

            Last week I popped in to a bar and had a few pints mid afternoon, not something I usually do……the clientele seemed to be 20 – 25 year old girls eating mini – pizzas, drinking cocktails……lovely looking, chi – chi ….and all that……but who was giving them their pocket money…???

            Checkout the BBC…see how many second….even third generation families are raking in a comfortable living on the back of the licence payer…!!!!

            Recently I read about an aristocrat who had been struggling of late …..but he still owns a race course…..and probably several thousand acres…..

            Nothing wrong with these things……but the above examples are to me where the so called establishment is these days……

            If your a consultant surgeon….well done…..your in the £100,000 plus…??? bracket…..but you still have to work hard to get there….and work even harder to stay there…….

            But if you are in the lower reaches of the establishment…..a gentle man farmer say ….you can probably afford a four wheel drive…..and have Poppy, and Sonia drink cocktails without worrying where their next Gucci hand bag is coming from…without too much bother…..and how much tax payer subsidy money will you be trousering…..????

            So give up the schools and hospital crap…..it doesn’t work like that.

      • parmahamster

        And then you go an do this… 😦

        • cam

          Parma,,,its my multiple personality disorder,,,,think i’ll qualify for some benefit dosh?,,,or is insanity not eligible?

      • JimBhoy

        Hardly anxious dude… We will lose money but OK.. If it means the betterment of others, so why is this a Celtic prob..?

    • Richboy

      I agree with you Fra. She had a vision and she was unrelenting in implementing it. Unfortunately for those on the “Wrong side” she was ruthless. The major reason she got away with it was because we had suffered several years of Labour incompetence leading to the imminent demise of not only our economy but our actual democratic freedom.

      Labour had so succumbed in every facet to the unions that we were barely a parliamentary trick from ceding our democratic rights to Eastern Europe and their array of Dictators.

      Thatcher, possibly even more than the Greatest ever Briton Churchill, stood defiant and saved us.

    • cam

      So Maggie forced drugs down these poor unemployed folks throats?
      Why can’t folk stop blaming things on someone else and get off their arse and work hard?
      The current welfare state is an insult to the working people.
      By all means in a caring society look after the disabled,elderly and vulnerable but gets the panic attack,depressed scroungers out sweeping the streets.And get those Nissan Quasqais back to the car showrooms.

      • coatbrigbhoy

        must make you feel good to attack people with mental health problems,
        This latest Tory Government must find clowns like you a god send, you do their evil work for them, when it suits the Tories unemployment is a price well worth paying.
        then they tell us that people need to be forced into work to get them out of the poverty trap, then they tell us that those claiming benefits are getting more in benefits than those in work earn
        These public school educated Tories love nothing better than the working class turning on the sick,disabled and unemployed.

        just a few examples of a private company (ATOS ), way of working,a company that is making millions off the back of the benefits system, by treating ill people as nothing more than a blank cheque………….

        “A young man explained how his uncle, who had severe mental health problems, committed suicide after the test gave him zero points and found him fit to work. He had appealed against the decision, and won at tribunal. But shortly after that decision, he was called in for another assessment, and for a second time scored zero points and was told he did not. He began appealing against the decision again, but a few days before another tribunal date was set, he hanged himself.”
        ***************************
        “Client’s husband is in hospital in a coma. He was sent ESA50. Client contacted DWP to explain situation and was asked to obtain letter from hospital confirming he is in a coma. Did so. Was told to send it to ATOS rather than local BDC. Did so. Husband has now received decision letter- yep, as he has failed to return the ESA50 without good cause and is therefore capable of work and no longer entitled to ESA.”
        *********************

        “I have a brain tumour and was left disabled because I had the left side of my cerebellum amputated,
        because of this my balance and coordination to my left side is shot coupled with the fact that all the cancer could not be removed I am also terminally ill, I DID NOT MAKE IT INTO THE SUPPORT GROUP. I was told I should be working in a set period of time, funny as it was the same as my lifespan, I contacted my MP who was luckily an x GP and gave him permission to look at my medical notes he was disgusted and got my decision reversed I am now in the support group. The letter from the DWP stated that I was not terminally ill for the purposes of benefit entitlement.”
        ************************************

        Where are all the jobs that the unemployed and the sick and disabled should be filling,?
        where are all the one bedroom house the people that are having to pay the bedroom tax located?

        The Tories are going to stop housing benefit for under 25 year olds, so a young man could enlist in the British army, go to Afghanistan, get blown up, end up physically disabled, depressed and at 21 years of age he is labelled a scrounger and he will not be supported by this government,he will be told to go and live back at home with his parents.

        yet you put your full support behind highly paid footballers taking tax free “LOANS” of thousands of pounds every week, more tax free money in one WEEK then may people earn in ONE YEAR

        • cam

          Don’t play that card,,i mean the chancers,the scroungers not the genuine cases.
          Why are all the hard working Polish community doing the lesser paid jobs?
          Cos the lazy fat spongers would rather stick their mitt out for a handout.
          FFS if that attitude was prevalent in 1940 you would be called coatbrigjunge.

          Eh excuse me chaps, but theres a whole bloody rake of Gerry headed our way so if you could possibly get in the old Spitfires and give it some Gangnam style.

          Aaaw haud oan big chap ahm feeling a bit of trauma comin oan,ahll jist go huv a wee lie doon.

          • cam

            I’m away to watch the Masters dressed up as Biggles.

          • coatbrigbhoy

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/4742214/UK-Poles-return-home.html

            Looks as if your not quite up to date on how bad it is on the work front.

            how many Ibrox heros made it to the front line back in the 940’s, not to many be all accounts, stay at home chanting we are the people while the rest went to fight,
            *******************************
            as for your attack on the depressed and other mental illness claimants,

            I suppose you were not having a pop at this section of the mental heath claimants either, good old Maggies war, the hidden fatalities

            The British Ministry of Defence was accused several times of a systematic failure to prepare service personnel for the horrors of war and to provide adequate care for them afterwards.

            There are allegations that the Ministry of Defence has tried to ignore the issue of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), which left many sufferers emotionally scarred and unable to work, immersed in social dislocation, alcoholism, and depression. Veterans have suffered prolonged personality disorders, flashbacks, and anxiety sometimes reaching pathological levels.

            It was revealed that more veterans have committed suicide since the Falklands War ended than the number of servicemen killed in action.The South Atlantic Medal Association (SAMA82), which represents and helps Falklands veterans, believes that some 264 veterans had taken their own lives by 2002, a number exceeding the 255 who died in active service, although no estimate is available for the expected number of suicides that would have occurred anyway.

            I have to wonder how many of them you would castigate if you did not know of their involvement with the Falklands war.
            as i said before, the Thatchers and the Camerons of this world love wee working class attack dogs like you, when you “bite” someone “genuine” then claim your sorry i did not mean to attack this one or that one, how do you know who’s a scrounger, and who is not, do you work for ATOS, those that demand that People in a coma, or those that have terminal cancer should be forced to work or have their benefits withheld.

            When all the able bodied are able to fill the low number of jobs, when there are then jobs not been filled, as every able bodied man and woman are working, then lets hound the sick and disabled into the workforce, but until every able bodied man or woman that wants a job but can’t get one due to the chronic shortage of jobs then lets leave the “scroungers”, genuine or not, alone.
            let the Government ensure that everyone that works must earn enough to enable that person to pay his/her own way, no working person should earn so little that they have to claim housing benefit or any other benefit because their employers refuse to pay them a living wage,

  8. Monti

    At any point during the Hunger strike,Thatcher could/should have awarded these brave young men political prisoner status, these men would be alive today. The IRA were a direct response to British torture & murder on the island of Ireland, Thatcher colluded with Brit special forces & Loyalist gunmen to carry out the killings of many Catholics & Irish Republicans! As I’ve said before KILLING IS OK WHEN THE BRITS ARE THE ONES DOING IT! Bloody Sunday was a war crime,it was murder & the catalyst for IRA recruitment! If a foreign soldiers landed on the streets of Scotland & started killing people, would you not do something about it? Would you not fight back? IRELAND UNFREE SHALL NEVER BE AT PEACE! God bless each & every one of the hunger strikers & their families, their sacrafice shall always be remembered! Just to confirm: I do NOT want bombs going off in any country, I do NOT want kids & pregnant women blown up, I do NOT dislike Protestants. I DO want the Brits out of Ireland, I DO want 100% equality for Catholics in Northern Ireland, I Do want Ireland to be exclusively Governed by Irishmen & women. In the words of Micheal Collins ” I hate them for making hate necessary” !!

    • Richboy

      And yet you openly support terrorist organisations who;

      Plant bombs designed to kill innocents;
      Plant bombs that kill women and children indiscriminately;
      Execute soldiers sent to do their job in foreign lands (not their choice)
      Execute mothers, Fathers, Brothers and Sisters simply because they are protestant.

      I , a Catholic Celtic Supporter who supports a United Ireland, could have been killed when the IRA tried to blow up the Victoria Sporting Club in the late 70s. Who were the “brave men” who planted that bomb?

      You are a hypocrite and, as previously advised by the posters on here, a bigot. We don’t care what you or your ilk think.

      As for Thatcher, it would be unconscionable for a Democratically elected leader to allow political status to a group of hired killers who had been convicted of murdering innocents, end of.

      • Gav

        Lets hope that applies to 1 Para also. If protection by the Army and British Government is not political then what is? Just askin!

      • Monti

        I notice you choose to ignore British Army murders in your Litany……P.S. I don’t give two fks what you or anybody thinks of me……

        • Richboy

          PS You are so insignificant in my life that I will never reply to you again.Our club and most of its supporters despise you and your ilk. Go Away.

          • cam

            Richboy,i realise that i may annoy you greatly as i play the stereotypical bluenose,but i doff my cap to you.
            You have restored my faith in the decent Celtic fans and when the aliens come to wipe us out i’ll be in the trench beside you eating a pie,swigging on my Kestrel and showing Gattuso,my pit bull,pictures of E.T.

        • david

          Yes you do.
          You asked for confirmation that you were not a bigot.
          You got comprehensively horsed.
          The verdict is clear: YOU ARE A BIGOT.
          You havent got any sense of shame to accept it and go hide.

          • Monti

            you my friend are a total Richard…..you posted previously that from your point out of view, you had no feud with me your next reference to me after that was an insult…..does this not make you a liar? Dick!

            • david

              Another lie.
              You were offered a magnanimous end following your crushing self-inflicted humiliation of being outed as a bigot.
              YOU refused.
              You are shamelessness personified.

      • Fra

        Richboy..You speak as if the British army in Ireland were paragons of decency and fairness. They were sent against their will to foreign lands???

        They took the kings shilling and signed up as a paid soldier to carry out orders and not to question whether they orders were right or wrong.
        As we have seen, on many occasions, they were colluding with loyalists to exterminate innocent Catholics with the British Prime Minister apologising not so long ago.

        You are a catholic Celtic supporter who could’ve been killed in a club.
        Plenty of catholic Celtic supporters have been killed by that army you talk about.

        Could I possibly enlighten you to hundreds of years of suffering, not excluding death, at the hands of those poor soldiers who get sent to a land not of their choosing.

        Monti may not be to your liking but could you drop the pompous shitty attitude because you certainly don’t represent this Catholic Celtic supporter who also agrees in a united Ireland.

    • Ed Paisley

      @Monti
      I have felt unease at some of your previous posts but I agree wholeheartedly with you here. The great injustice of the partition of Ireland required a strong response from patriotic nationalists. The democratic processes are now in place to reflect the voices of the whole community and the historic injustice will be healed.
      Thank you for your post sir.

      • Monti

        Thanks Ed. Just so you know Ed, I know I hold strong views that may not be popular with the majority, but I do feel conviction in what I say….

        • david

          Conviction is that you are a bigot.

          And anything you say is taken with a pinch of salt owing to your constant lies.

          • cam

            David, you have thoroughly defeated him with logic and in a fair scrap.Leave him be now and be the bigger man.
            Leave no gap in your armour in here, as the pack will go after it.
            There are many battles ahead and many melons to twist although, unlike me ,i sense that is not your purpose.
            Stick to your strengths David and keep up the quality informative posts.
            Let this old dinosaur do the dirty work.

            • Monti

              Like the IRA, I am undefeated;

            • david

              Thank you Cam.
              I will take your advice.
              See below he claims to be undefeated, like his IRA buddies.
              He is consistent; wrong again on both counts. He got horsed personally on his own challenge and his beloved IRA gave up as they could not possibly win and decommissioned their weapons. At the end they seemed unable to discern who amongst them were being run by British Intelligence. And the so-called Loyalists were rendered impotent as well.
              I am delighted to see the progress in Ireland, peace is to be cherished.

          • JohnBhoy

            @david

            David, depending on a straw pole to malign someone is poor form, particularly against the serious charge of bigotry. Reiterating it ad infinitum does you no service. “Constant lies”? Surely you are not harking back to Monti’s fictitious abode? He explained himself. Is that not good enough? Bigot because of a pole and liar because of an address, when others on this blog express opinions masquerading as fact that reflect a mean view towards the disadvantaged in society.

            Your intense dislike of Monti is now colouring your views on anything he says. For example, your comment that the IRA “gave up”, places a slant on the peace deal that does not reflect reality. One could equally say that the government “gave up”, but that was not the case either. When one chess player accepts the offer of a drawn match from his opponent, he is not accused of giving up. There was a war of attrition and both sides knew that they could not win. Hence a deal was struck.

            • JohnBhoy

              “poll”, not “pole”. This predictive spell checker has to go.

            • david

              Your pal was offered a deal and refused, pouring out yet more infantile abuse.
              I think you are a smart guy but I cannot fathom why you would choose to support Monti given the disgusting nature of his posts. He made the challenge; even on a pro-Celtic website his vile views were soundly rejected.
              I cannot accept your analysis of the Troubles.
              Democracy, backed by the rule of law, has triumphed in Northern Ireland.
              Terrorism has been defeated. ( excepting these crazed “dissidents” ).
              The IRA have decommissioned. The British Army have not.
              Northern Ireland will decide its future by democratic means, not at the threat of a gun. British Intelligence had comprehensively infiltrated the IRA .The Loyalists were rendered impotent also.
              Peace and prosperity to to cousins, ALL of them, across the water.

          • ecojon

            @ David

            Pot calling kettle black? Should I believe anything you have to say when, despite repeated requests, you have failed to produce the statistics on banning which you say proves Rangers is more anti-sectarian than Celtic.

            Should anyone believe what you have to say?

    • Monti I don’t always agree with you but in this instance I can’t find fault with anything in this post.
      What I will say is some brigades in the IRA went way off course & their targeting of civilians at times, undeniably made them no better than the Brits.
      A wholehearted yes to a united, tolerant all encompassing, Independant Ireland, ( & Scotland for that matter), but not at any cost.
      Can’t wait to see a Saltire & Tricolour flying everywhere on these islands.

    • JimBhoy

      @Monti all terrorism should be fought against by the world authorities..I hate the thought of my kids standing up for/against ANY form of sectarianism or racism, I have not brought them up that way and my family like probably most in Scotland is pretty much mixed so all the shield rattling is futile daftness.. What are well arguing about…Would you really want to be up to your knees in your Grannies fenian blood at the lodge or have your uncle support the fenians when you are at the chapel,,,,That’s my predicament, I have no bitterness..

  9. Fisiani

    Without the reforms of Thatcher, Great Britain would not be great. Posters need to remove the parochial blinkers. You cannot make wine without crushing grapes. You cannot have a thriving vine without pruning. Claiming that any politician has no compassion for the working classes staggers credulity. No such politician exists. This is just a figment of the class war mentality that still pervades Scotland
    Maggie was no saint but no sinner.
    She did what she did in order to improve life in Britain. She succeeded in part. As a young man I despised her but with the benefit of life experience and world travel I now see her more favourably. May she rest in peace.

      • Richboy

        Unfortunately Fisiani too many on here have only one eye open and will berate your sensible explanation because they have been taught to do so.

        I genuinely feel for those who suffered under Baroness Thatcher. I do not have any sympathy for those who were barely alive during her time in office and are merely regurgitating their angry parents feelings towards her. Perhaps they should read about the state of Britain under the hapless incompetent Callaghan and Healey regime.

        • Thatcher making fashionable free market, unfettered Banking & Capitalism, is the single most significant factor in the current global recession. Socialist & trade unionists gains in putting the brakes & setting more civilized parameters for Capitalism were swept away & the culture of “”fill yer pockets has left us with the mess we have today.
          Also worth noting she did say “The ANC were terrorists”, & she & Reagan had less influence on the downfall of the Soviet empire than is ascribed to them.
          It was the Solidarity union in Poland which began the unraveling with much assistance of the Catholic Church.
          Bit of a smug reactionary ” Brit brothers” love in going on here.
          Cam your thinly disguised contempt for the downtrodden is beyond the pale.
          Protestant work ethic! What the hell is that?

          • cam

            It’s in the dictionary Mac,,,look it up.
            Do you believe that the state owes you a better lifestyle for conning medical tests to get more money in benefits than a working man?
            Your just a rebel for rebels sake,you fit the stereotype of abusing anything British to a tee.

            • Cam The only stereotype I conform to is one I’ve made for myself. I make my own mind up on all issues.
              I know what the Protestant work ethic is, but you’ve appropriated it to confirm in your own mind that there exists a massive subculture of leeches & parasites out there. It’s typical lazy, reactionary “unthinking”.
              It provides you with an excuse not to consider the complexity of the situation regarding unemployment & the welfare system.
              Of course the Klan as always need someone to look down on. That seedy genuine subculture really does love the class system How convenient that you have the poor & hopeless to despise.

    • Fra

      Bollocks. Great Britain ain’t great. It’s a small country with little power left although it would like to think it still has. As a young man I also despised her and with the benefit of life experience, I have never hated any human being as much as her.

      • cam

        What about Barry Ferguson Fra?,,,betcha don’t like him much either.
        Don’t keep hate in your heart,it shortens your life expectancy.

        • Fra

          Just dislike him Cam. Doesn’t get near the wicked witch. Not a lot of hate left now that she’s dead.

          • cam

            Thats good,,,i think you said you stay in New Zealand?,,,if i was you mate i would be out every day in that beautiful country.That and NY are on my bucket list if the old pension fund can resist my daughters’ wish lists.

            • Fra

              NY just feels too crass for me although that’s only a perception. I sound like Judith bloody Chalmers. The touristy tacky places don’t do it for me at all. In fact I don’t know what is now I think about it. Scenic would probably be my thing with educational visits, ie galleries museums, animal parks but not zoos. I don’t just like freedom for Ireland but also animals.

        • Ed Paisley

          Great Brits – Barry Ferguson
          I have to admit cam, I congratulate Bazza for building a good football career with no discernible talent. Remember Bazza is the man who rarely made a forward pass – didn’t the Gers fans call him side-pass Barry?

          But for me the thing that definitely rules Bazza out as a Great Briton, is his involvement in the tax evading EBT scheme. Wasn’t Barry the second biggest beneficiary of this dodgy scheme after David Murray (himself the son of a jailed tax cheat)?

          And of course Barry nicknaming his team-mate Lorenzo Amanarsehole was not acceptable.

          • cam

            He had that good spell when he played more attack minded and gave Mattheus a lesson and of course scored that beauty against the satanic mob, like McStay he should have gone to the continent where his technique would have prospered.
            Our football the kick and rush playground variety won’t suffer possession football for more than 4 passes,,thats why we will always be utter crap.

            • Ed Paisley

              Didn’t Bazza go to Blackburn? I know he suffered a leg break but he hardly shone there. At least I knew Barry wasn’t a bigot because he married a beautiful Roman Catholic girl of Irish background.
              Yes I had a soft spot for Bazza, I just wish he hadn’t taken Murray’s tax-cheat money. That really disappointed me.

            • Monti

              Buckfast Barry wouldn’t have been allowed to clean Paul Mcstay’s boots!

      • david

        Not quite true, Fra.
        G8 member, permanent member of the security council, member of the commonwealth, fourth largest military budget, nuclear power.

        Quite right re Thatcher, though.

        • Fra

          David….Friends of the good old US of A keeps them in the loop. Without the strategic position of Britain, they’d be out on a limb. Economy fecked, defence fecked and with the greedy capitalists having their snouts in the trough for too long, THE U.K is FECKED. I rest my case

      • david

        The ” Klan “, Mac Thomas?
        Sounds like you a frequentlng a derided site by a derided 5-name -changes issue-ridden sad case.

    • FairBairn

      Fisiani,
      April 14, 2013 at 11:09 am
      Your mention of Great Britain and vines reminded me of my time grape picking in France. A Frenchman from Bretagne asked me why is Britain called Grand Bretagne, did that make his homeland Petit Bretagne.
      This made me think that maybe the ‘Great’ really means ‘Big’ to differentiate the Island from the district. After all, it’s a bit arrogant to call yourself great. It’s ok though if other people give you that accolade.

      • david

        It was called ” Great ” by James 6th / 1st to signify the Union, as in ” greater “.
        Fair to say that the country lived up to the title, although for me, its time is up.
        Independence for me.

    • JimBhoy

      bollox she set us up for 3 recessions at least, my pension is fukd.. Did you go on a YTS>?

  10. Monti

    On a grave in Belfast
    Shone a ray of gold light
    A voice came from the deep earth
    And echoed in the night

    My name is Bobby Sands
    I fought & died for my dear land
    With Joe & Francis at my side
    my comrades on hunger strike they died! R.I.P. OGLACH BOBBY SANDS.

  11. JohnBhoy

    QUOTING THATCHER

    Thatcher did refer to the ANC as a terrorist organisation. In answer to a question posed by Alan Merrydew of BCTV News what her response was “to a reported ANC statement that they will target British firms in South Africa?”, she responded “This shows what a typical terrorist organisation it is.”

    However, she did not say that “anyone who thinks [the ANC] is going to run the government in South Africa is living in cloud-cuckoo land”. That remark was made by her spokesman Bernard Ingham, as reported in The Washington Post: “When a Canadian reporter suggested that the African National Congress might overthrow the white South African regime [by force], Thatcher’s spokesman responded, ‘It is cloud cuckooland for anyone to believe that could be done.'” (The Washington Post, 18 October 1987). At the time, the statement was widely attributed to Thatcher and made headline news (e.g, Financial Times: “Margaret Thatcher In Her Own Words”) and no effort was made by Thatcher or her spokesman to correct that wrong attribution.

    Views of Mandela as a terrorist were reflected by her cabinet colleagues, examples:

    ‘How much longer will the Prime Minister allow herself to be kicked in the face by this black terrorist?’ – Terry Dicks MP, mid-1980s

    ‘Nelson Mandela should be shot’ – Teddy Taylor MP, mid-1980s

    • Richboy

      In reality, it was the white South African govt that decided they should allow blacks to vote. This had very little, if anything, to with the ANC and more to do with South Africans being fed up of isolation, in particular sporting isolation.

      I lived there at the time and the ANC were about as effective as a five hour watch. I lived in the North and sometimes witnessed these incompetents trying to infiltrate only to be sold out by other Africans and subsequently killed. Living so close to the Zimbabwean border (Zimbabwe, another paragon of African Democracy) I expected a lot more trouble. In my last year there we had three incursions, all of them were dealt with by local African police officers resulting in 10 dead and 2 captured.

  12. Gortch

    Every time they tell you how great Thatcherism is think of all the pensioners who die year on year because they’re too scared and too poor to put heating on in their homes. Think about the junkies, lives completely bereft of meaning and value, like so many others discarded in the great landfills our cities have become. Think of the super rich with their record-breaking wealth and profits. Think of the quiet role played by the middle classes who could have done something to stop all this but sat on their hands and said nothing: basically reduced to whores who sold out for a few middle-management jobs… Actually it’s the latter I resent most, total materialistic scumbags who somehow have the nerve to go around moralising.

    We could go on and on. But time to get back to our cookery programs and shallow, unfunny, sitcoms. As long as you make the kids pronounce their Ts everything will be alright. And encourage them to save. Take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves.

    Utterly revolting world. See you in hell, Thatcher, along with the swinish multitude of shallow whores we call the middle classes.

    • cam

      Aw c’mon,Masterchef is great tv.
      Ilove it when big Greg gets tucked into the puddings.What the hell is he thinking about with that skinny look,,bloody selfish if you ask me.I pay my tv license to watch a happy fat guy eat banoffee pie with gusto,,,get it sorted.
      Do you think Tony could have stopped playing the international statesman for a minute and sorted those energy companies out?
      New labour?,,,,clowns.

      • Gortch

        In every nuance of what you have expressed, the resignation, the cynicism, the cowardice, and what we would probably call the humour (despite its lack of funniness), you are a shining example of one of Thatcher’s children. Notice I didn’t say substance, there was no substance. You should consider education as an alternative.

        • cam

          Fank you,,whitch skool shood i go too

            • cam

              Can we play at sojies Gav?,,,you can be an Argie

            • Gav

              Cam, i sure hope your bayonet talk was not a euphemism:-) and rainbow sex meant something entirely different, in my day, from clancys bastardisation of the term for his popular, if somewhat ludicrous novel. There are some on this forum who would gladly see you drop from a plane, most likely wihout a ‘chute. I, on the other hand, am glad you hang around. I agree with almost nothing you say, but i fully support your right to say it. Unless, and until you advocate violence against another human being then i hope you continue to air your position, regardless how extreme. It is not ideas, nor ideals that are damaging. It is their interpretation and subsequent implementation that is our bane. By all means enjoy your “chicken supper” but dont cry “fowl” if a sly old fox has you and your chicken super for his own. Just my two aussie cents!

          • Gav

            Re: Sogies
            Sorry cam, ran oot a levels for reply but I’ll be an argie if you are a brit. Given the deficiencies in your field PPE there’s sure to be only one winner nowadays. Lets hope the Argies dont want a rematch. We probably couldnt afford to rent an old aircraft carrier from the yanks, and they probably wouldnt trust us with it anyway.

            • cam

              Yup,and i’m not getting dropped out of an aeroplane for nobody,,,,well unless its part of the Rainbow 6 team going after Craigie.
              Now no playing rough with that bayonet Gav.

            • cam

              Good God Gav,steady on old chum,,,lets keep beef bayonets sheathed if you please.
              Well played on treating my rubbish as just that and if we can’t get a laugh then its a bad day,,,sometimes i get a bit pre menstrual and Gollum takes over and confuses folk,,,do i care?
              Did you notice that my chicken supper got stolen from me?
              Damned filter!
              If you see me falling out of the Aussie sky,then you will know they got me!

            • david

              The chances of a successful Argentinian reinvasion is zero.

            • david we have just squandered gazillions on some useless naval military hardware. A serious cock up! Huge riddies can be seen from outer space eminating from the MOD., British Landforces are undergoing a major downsizing & been seriously stretched this past decade. . I’m not sure there would be zero chance of a successful re invasion. Not that it’s on the Argentinian agenda

        • Gortch you summed him up perfectly. He’s a zombie child of Thatcher, & what’s more he wallows in it. Selfish to his union flag socks!

  13. ecojon

    And no real mention of the Falkands – I am truly disappointed 🙂
    All that is noted is: ‘To be sure, Thatcher’s Britain punched well above its weight as a middling Western power, partly because of her close relationship with Reagan, and partly because of the Falklands War. That victory impressed the Russians, who respect determination and the readiness to use force’.

    All those lives lost because of her need and desire to show who was Boss and to hell with diplomacy.

    As to those who believe she left Britain an ‘International Super Power’ then I’m afraid that particular delusion is part of our downfall and should any still be alive wearing union jack jammies then it’s time to waken-up.

    Our ‘International Super Power’ status IMO was most certainly built not on diplomacy but on Polaris and then Trident and many believe that is too high a price to pay in economic and moral grounds.

    Another element of our ‘International Super Power’ curse has been our propping-up of vile regimes and especially those that we can sell armaments to and, of course, our willingness to put boots on the ground with little regard to ensuring they have adequate let-alone good equipment. And that applies to Governments of all colours

    I watched the Falklands Documentary last night and was annoyed at myself because I had actually forgotten that to cut costs we had clothed our sailors in crimplene or some such plastic fabric which was largely responsible for some of the terrible burns inflicted on our sailors as well as cheaper but combustible materials used to build our warships.

    Why was I annoyed? Because my dad was a Royal Navy gunner in World War II, and I knew all about ‘flash’ protection and one should never forget hard-earned lessons because the re-learning can be a painful and sometimes deadly process.

    But possibly the thing that always interested me most about her sale of council housing wasn’t the principle involved as I had long argued for it in the Labour Party – before Thatcher and with the vital caveat that for each house sold a new unit be built. It didn’t make me popular back-then but I have never courted popularity and was fortunate enough never to wish public office and I have seen many good people be seduced into that trap and sell their soul and principles.

    No, my real gripe with Thatcher and the Tories was what happened to the cash raised and I have to confess my grip of the mysteries of local government and public finances is not what it once was. But from memory the sale proceeds could not be used to extinguish the long term loan debts – 80 years was common – for building public housing but had to be spent on the revenue account side.

    Why does it matter – well it meant the sale proceeds came in and was spent and the loan debt remained and had to continue to be repaid from an ever-decreasing rent income which helped slowly strangle the finances of many councils – especially those with the largest concentrations of council housing.

    And it was inevitable that the worst housing stock in the worst areas were the houses that didn’t sell – the houses that no one wanted especially not those that had to live in the damp-ridden disasters which they couldn’t afford to adequately heat.

    And what about the miners’ strike and the Poll tax – possibly their absence says more about the Independent than Thatcher and certainly identifies their circulation area and to hell with anyone else. A fluffy lightly whipped low calorie confection which, at first taste, seems OK but lacks any real substance. Real issues and principles have been missed for a ‘puff’ of a piece.

  14. JohnBhoy

    Off to game. No time to respond to nostalgic right-wing propaganda.

  15. Richboy

    “And what about the miners’ strike and the Poll tax – possibly their absence says more about the Independent than Thatcher and certainly identifies their circulation area and to hell with anyone else.”

    And the same can be said of the many publications that recently ranted against Thatcher and cheered her demise. (Surely it was inappropriate for an entire Union conference to cheer the sordid remarks of a scummy trade union leader?) I wonder what the reaction would be to a Union leaders demise demise being celebrated in such a way at the Conservative Party Conference.

    Eco, you have provided us with many great many posts and for that I am eternally grateful. You have shone the light where many of us have otherwise not had the courage to venture. In my opinion, You, next to Paul, are the hero of this blog.

    It is therefore difficult for me to so entirely disagree with you on the effects of “Thatcherism”. I did very well under Margaret Thatcher. I realised I could not make a decent living in Union controlled Scotland and therefore moved to other pastures.I worked very hard for a number of years and was duly rewarded.

    This allowed me to follow my first love, traveling. I have seen so much of the world and have not suffered too badly financially. I have always found, no matter where I have been, that hard work eventually pays off.

    Nowadays we have a “me,me,me” society. Everyone thinks they are owed by society, very reminiscent of the Callaghan days.

    Eco, I feel for your Dad and his sufferings during the Falklands conflict. It is however easy to look back on these things and suggest that “economy” rather than ignorance or incompetence was a factor then. We all tend to suffer from 20/20 hindsight from time to time and I am willing to give our leaders the benefit of the doubt (i know that’s easy without your personal experience) and accept they just didn’t know.

    • ecojon

      @ Richboy

      If you wish to respond to any of my posts it might help if you read them first before cutting and pasting from your crib sheet.

      My dad wasn’t in the Falklands as he was dead by then. What I actually stated was: ‘My dad was a Royal Navy gunner in World War II’.

      Because of my upbringing of which I am neither proud nor ashamed I am a socialist and have never deviated from that although during a very active life heavily involving politics and trade unionism I have publicly attacked the carpet-baggers on my side of the fence as much as Thatcher Tories.

      I have usually been able to work with anyone who truly believes in Democracy but there is no doubt from my personal experiences that Democracy is actually failing in this country and being muzzled and that is mainly at the behest of ‘New Tories’ mainly spawned by Thatcher although I don’t blame her for their ‘greed’ I do blame her for creating a moral climate which I believe was instrumental in creating it.

      I often argued that a lot of Thatcher’s policies actually had a ‘socialist’ kernel but it’s a bit like ‘profit’ which can be made through morally acceptable means: It’s not the ‘profit’ that’s the problem it’s how you spend it.

      I met her in the 80s during a visit when I was part of my workplace reception party and as I was explaining many of the more technical aspects I spoke directly to her and answered her questions. She was intelligent and truly gave the impression of being interested through the questions she asked which revealed she had listened and understood the concepts – some of which were quite difficult – involved. But her charisma was something else and it really surrounded her like a force-field and I have only come across it in a handful of people.

      However she created a divided Britain and in the grand scheme of things from a political/historical perspective I believe her only footnote might end-up being: The Falklands and that I remain convinced will be a negative one.

      She wilfully hurt and damaged a lot of people in this country and truly is hated in Scotland to this day. Even I was stunned by the hatred she generated and at Kelvingrove Park in 82 I was at an open-air concert on a lovely day with a huge audience chilling-out and listening to the music. I was shocked when the MC broke in to announce the sinking of a Royal Navy ship because the vast majority of the crowd cheered. The MC obviously thought they had misheard and repeated the announcement to be met with bigger cheers. It seemed like a few minutes later their was another announcement of a second ship being hit with even bigger cheers and the crowd on its feet screaming anti-Thatcher slogans. It was all quite surreal.

      I can’t adequately describe how I felt mainly because of my dad’s background and the many family members who ‘did their duty’ in WWII with a high proportion in the RN. It took me a while to understand that the reaction wasn’t in any way an attack on our sailors but a BIG FU to Thatcher and ‘HER’ war. The whole thing taught me some important lessons about ‘people’ in general and brought to life how seemingly impossible ‘revolutions’ can actually be sparked and that was before the Miners Strike.

      But my favourite Tory Dame was Edwina Currie – what an absolutely captivating personality and again met through a work situation. I think I fell slightly in love with her which never left me until she had an affair with John Major which turned me right-off once and for all 🙂

      • JimBhoy

        @Eco pal you are a legend fella, hope I can call you a pal… Always like what you write, hate your taste in women… If we ever meet for a night out I’ll leave the missus at home.. Just in case, my wee lass is a honey..Thankfully my family have her genes..!!!

        • ecojon

          @JimBhoy

          I’m sure we’ll have a pint someday and yea Pal seems fine to me 🙂

          I can’t explain the Edwina thing but in the flesh she truly was different but alas I lost out to an officer (Major) and a gentleman and me just an old rocker from the scheme. But I was different even then as I wasn’t into Trumphs but had a Dom 88 – real class!

          Used to strip her in my bedroom every winter and lovingly put her back together for the Spring when all that salt was off the road. Those were the days – heading off to the hills with my army surplus Commando boots, bergen and groundsheet and finding freedom and myself 🙂

          I miss those nights under the stars and get too bloody cold these days to repeat them and even Highland Hotels get a little concerned that you have collapsed on their grass when all you are doing is totally relaxing by looking to the stars and beyond.

          • cam

            Jeez,how did you get away with that?
            Did you sneak her in under cover of darkness and get her to dress up in that Dom gear,,,you sly old fox,,,did you keep the commando boots on and get the major to watch whilst you stripped her down?

    • Richboy, you may have done very nicely because of Thatcherism, but many, many did not. My own father lost his job three times during her reign as a direct result of her policy.
      That’s what most people find most objectionable about her, she encouraged people to only consider their own position in society & the socialist principle of the “Common Treasury” was to be despised.
      I’m not sure if you are aware of how your post reflects the “I’m alright” too bad for every body else Thatcher philosophy.

    • Well wag your tail, how good it must be to be you. If looking out for your fellow man, not as fortunate as you, to have” done very well out of Thatcherism” is considered a me,me,me, society then count “me” in. The trouble with “Thatchers” children is they equate success with the size of their bank balance. What a shallow existence. I hope on your travels, you didn’t have the misfortune to venture into the less exuberant parts of the world as you have no doubt become accustomed to. Might I enlighten you to the delights of the Socialist Republic of Venezuela, who have eradicated the monetarism politics of Neo Conservatism, and are embarking on a program of social governance rapidly being followed by most third world countries. Countries, I may add, that have been kept to heel by Margaret Thatcher, her successors, and sadly deluded supporters such as yourself. Please don’t choke on your foie gras,but I find the fact you claim to be a Celtic fan a little hard to believe.

  16. Richboy

    Eco, apologies for missing the point that your Dad was in WWII rather than the Falklands, but this actually adds to my point. I do not believe that our government would deliberately allow our troops to suffer through economic cuts rather than thinking they were providing the best available. In the second world war I am sure they provided the best equipment uniforms they could.

    • ecojon

      @Richboy

      I’m glad my father’s war service has been useful to you as a debating ploy.

      You obviously have a lot to learn about how government’s work and what their priorities are. My dad went to fight against fascism and not to support a Tory Upper Class with close economic political, social and economic ties to their opposite numbers in Germany.

      So did most of the ordinary troops at the sharp-end and when they came home their khaki vote destroyed the Tories.

      As to you nonsense about equipment, uniforms and government cuts – I reckon I would get more sense from my pets.

    • Raymilland

      Is the only reason Campbell ‘limpet arse’ Ogilvie remains in office at Hampden due to the fact that the job itself has become untenable while TRFC continue full sail under a Jolly Roger flag?

      It can only be a matter of time until Ogilvie pays the ultimate price for the SFA’s abject failure to challenge ‘Captain Kidd’.

  17. Ed Paisley

    There was an interesting piece in the Independent a few days ago about the psychology of Margaret Thatcher. When she was growing up her mother’s love was concentrated on her older sister Muriel. Therefore young Margaret’s devoted attention turned to her father and his world. She developed the toughness and resilience that were more prevalent in males in a mercantile world. These are admirable qualities of course, but the traditional female qualities of compassion and empathy were missing or at least suppressed in Margaret.

    Hence Mrs Thatcher was well suited to the political world where she could exploit her gender when it suited but she could act with more dispassion than most of her male colleagues (whom she called “wets”). This deficit in compassion and empathy also helps when you are a lifelong insomniac as she was.

    • Gortch

      An interesting “piece” was it? LOL! Sounds really interesting.

      Thanks for the utterly pointless regurgitation of something you read in a paper aimed at spineless, pretentious morons.

      What’s the difference between a “piece” and an article, btw? Is this a piece? I want to write pieces… maybe Paul can fix it so that it says “Leave a Piece” instead of a reply.

      The only good thing we can say about Thatcher is she is dead.

      • Ed Paisley

        I think you’ve missed one of your calm pills again!

        • Gortch

          Sorry, Ed, I just see mention of the Independent and my heart fills with rage. It used to be worth reading occasionally but is now totally lame; the article you mentioned sounds so typical… I think alternative news / media is the way to go if you want to find out what’s going on in the real world. The Thatcher death sums it all up; on one hand the traditional media sources etc are telling us how great she was, in alternative media circles it’s Ding Dong The Wicked Witch is Dead.

          • Ed Paisley

            @Gorcha
            If you read any of my posts you will see what I thought of Mrs T. How could she close her ears to the distress of mining communities and the families of the hunger strikers? How could she sleep at night? Well, the truth is she couldn’t sleep more than 3 hours a night for most of her life. She grew up despising people who were poor because in her mind they were just lazy and stupid. I think Thatcher had a damaged psychology that made her enjoy cruelty. I was at school when the Belgrano was sunk – I don’t think any other PM from her cabinet would have OK’d the sinking. It’s also true that she hated both sides of the N Irish divide – not because of the violence but because the govt had to spend far more per head of popn in NI than any other region in the UK.
            You’re right – few people will genuinely mourn her death. Even her home town of Grantham is very divided.

  18. Off out shortly, so a little reminder to all as to how CW operates ……..

    Who owns Liberty Corporate Ltd ….. no clues …..
    Ah ha ……. I see many of you with tour hands up …… I know …. I know
    Yes ok …… we all know that actually it’s CW

    but hold on ………. it has a sole director …..
    His father Thomas Whyte …..

    It’s just the way he operates ……..

    • cam

      Remember now newtz,,tradecraft at all times,change your route and times and wrap your phone in tin foil.

      • cam ….. budgie has undergone waterboarding now …… he knows more than he lets on …. !
        … relentless questions ….. not a chirp ….
        Finally in exasberation …….. “show us yer deeds” ……
        … you were right, the little fella started whistling like a parakeet …..

        The recording are currently being fed and processed through wave pattern recognition algorithms utilising discrete fast fourier transformation techniques to attempt to decode and simplify the acoustic patterns.If I can seperate the unique frquency bands there is a chance that my bespoke Babel Translator might recognise unique phrases or frequency patterns.

        Will report back if any interesting is returned from the online NIST Mass Automated Data Analysis Tool

        • cam

          If you play Craigies tapes backwards you can hear a noise uncannily similar to the screams when Billy Nimmo did his thang!

  19. Jamie

    Carson! just for you

  20. cam

    Well that all went much quieter than i thought.
    A good controversial subject to bitch about and everybody played clean.Football,politics and religion all in one go and no casualties.We left out sex and rock music.
    Now Debbie Harry i could get quite excited about but i might get caught, so i’ll just offer up Carlos Santana,Thin Lizzy,Talking Heads and Clapton.
    Here’s a good working mans song,,,don’t fret,get by the title!

  21. I’m not a Thatcher fan , but I do find it interesting that all of laws she set up have never been scraped , most people now own their houses private or ex council and that the previous labour government actually closed more pits than she did , now as I’ve said I’m not a supporter of hers , but did she do the dirty work no men had the balls for ?

    • Ed Paisley

      Yes she did sell off the bulk of the social housing stock. That was an easy decision for Mrs Thatcher because it bought her a great electoral advantage. Unfortunately, the proceeds weren’t used to create new social housing stock and much of the sold-off housing ended up in the hands of the private rented sector who have had a boomtime (at public expense through rocketing housing benefit costs).
      It was a popular policy in the short term but the costs of that policy are still with us today.

    • coatbrigbhoy

      the Tories have introduced the bedroom tax, they tell us the country can’t afford the massive cost of paying housing benefit to those IN and OUT of work,
      No low cost social housing is available for the lowest paid workers,this keeps those people claiming housing benefit, the country subsidises those companies that pay the minimum wage, the sick and the unemployed get the blame.
      were are all the one bedroom homes ? people are having to pay bedroom tax because there are not enough suitable sized homes to house people,
      private landlords have sew up the one bedroom market charging far more than social housing rents, who picks up the bill, the tax payer, well they did until the Tories decided to yet again punish those at the thin end of the wedge.

      Are you seriously suggesting that the labour party put more miners out of work the Thatcher,

  22. I suppose one good thing she did was lay the foundations for some kind of peace in loyal Ulster by facing down the common criminals and terrorist child killers of republican gangs , ultimately paving the way for the surrender of these common criminals and the handing over of their weapons , so I think the surrender of these gangsters is not a bad legacy.

    • JimBhoy

      @Carson stop talking sh!te…plz she had Scotland as a dumping/testing out ground… She had our pensioners on the 10 quid allowance for cold weather 5 degrees below to the rest of the UK….

  23. Monti

    Great to see an Irishman & fellow Republican, seal our Scottish cup final place today, magnificent game. would love to see Gary MacKay Steven in the Hoops, Lenny make it happen. Looking forward to a full Green & White occasion when we meet our cousins from the east in the final. God Bless the Pope! Arse-on, I feel your pain….haha

    • mick

      Hi Monti the stokes goal was great at end what a great match to caly for the league next big tel bhoy and co great buzz today doing the huddle to thatcher died loved it missed the banner being late in and first goal

      • An all green final. Hail hail to our Hibby bro’s will feel a bit sorry on their behalf, if we win the cup. Was gutted for Hibs after last years final
        . Will be a great end to the season though, a Green, White & Gold Hampden, & Green &, White Leaking shite all over the Asbestos Arena.
        Hail Hail. 🙂

      • Monti

        Hail Hail Comrade…..

    • JimBhoy

      @Monti read thru 3 days posts 2 players for the Celts, Johnnie Russell and Leigh Griffiths, lots of good young boys about ‘cos rangers aren’t about that may become a more significant fact… Armageddon etc…

      I actually bet a final 4-4 today but great to see so many goals past 2 days..

      4 very good teams go at it, was great to see.

    • JohnBhoy

      @Monti

      Yes, Gary MacKay Steven would be a good signing for Celtic. Great game today; in fact, two great semi-finals. And an all-green Hampden final to look forward to – what a sight that’ll be! A four-leaf clover on my breast…

    • david

      Do you not feel any pain at being outed as a bigot?
      BTW as you are a “boss ” , do your subordinates or employees know that you post such vile rubbish on this site?
      Or is that another lie to add to your many?

  24. JohnBhoy

    Maggie! Maggie! Maggie! Myth! Myth! Myth! the Independent Points Out Much We “Know” About Her is Wrong

    You mean, our Maggie is really @Violet? Shit, tell me that’s not true, please!

  25. JimBhoy

    check out Newcastle fans today. remind you of any other fans?? Fukin shocking..!!!

  26. JohnBhoy

    THATCHER’S LEGACY
    A psychological word test of the name Thatcher would produce opposite, and extreme, reactions: adorable, odious, determined, reckless, pro-rich, anti-poor, patriotic, anti-community. The fact that even today, many decades after her rule, she divides opinion tells us about her legacy: a divided nation.

    In Scotland, the majority detested the woman, and not just because of the poll tax. Scotland prides itself on socialist sentiment – in theory if not wholly in reality – and her policies were anti-society: the rich got richer and the poor got nothing. An incompetent Labour Party and intransigent unions gave her Britain on a plate.

    In the end, her own incompetence and intransigence cost her dear, and us. Our manufacturing base is decimated, replaced by insubstantial employment (hotels, leisure “industry”, food outlets, etc.). Of the 29.73 million people employed today, 8.06 million are part-time workers, many on zero hour contracts (Office National Statistics). The economic breech between north and south is wider than ever. The chasm between rich and poor has now stretched to breaking point.

    She was a conviction politician, that is to her credit, but what she believed in was anathema to Scotland: profit before people. Ironically, in dying she may have brought to life a sense of injustice that has been boiling in recent years over the inequitable economic divisions within society.

    • Ed Paisley

      @Johnboy
      Agree completely. She was a conviction politician but her convictions were a complete corruption of the inate human values of compassion, fellowship and solidarity.
      She called it personal responsibility and aspiration.That’s ok if we all start with the same chances in life. Unfortunately, the vast majority of us were’nt born with a £5m trust fund like Osborne. She thought the way to encourage her values in the poor was to starve them and make them homeless. And this from a christian. Shame on her.

    • david

      Excellent post.
      The QUALITY of job available has declined dramatically and huge skillbases have been lost.
      A new Titanic is apparently to be built- unfortunately no British yard can take on the task. Neither could the new Queen Elizabeth be built here.
      I lived and worked through the 70s. Industrial relations were terrible, but what was really needed was
      Investment
      Modernisation
      and most of all, decent Management on a participative basis like the Germans and Japanese.
      Changes were inevitable but most of these industries could have survived, in a more lean , productive and efficient manner.
      British motorcycles , for example.
      We still require Steel- the recent contract for the new Forth crossing had to go to China. Gartcosh and Ravenscraig were renowned to quality.
      Both could have survived after modernisation and rationilisation.

  27. charliedon

    I think it’s ironic that Margaret Thatcher and Charles Green are both currently main talking points in this blog. Isn’t the greedy, self serving and devious Green just the ultimate evolution and personification of the ethos of the Thatcher era?

  28. coatbrigbhoy

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/tam-cowan-column-rangers-chief-1828796

    This little extract has Tam Cowan putting the boot into James of Airdrie

    “The stories surrounding Rangers in recent weeks must humiliate the lifelong fans (maybe the club should consider hiring some sort of media expert to dampen down the lurid headlines?) and the alleged relationship between Green and Whyte has been particularly damaging.”

    Loved it.

    • cam

      I hope you’re up early for work and not to sit on the couch wi the Xbox.

      • coatbrigbhoy

        your thinking “small”, try retired and living in the sunshine,
        what is an xbox, is that something you spend time with, is it like one of your inflatable girlfriends ?

  29. arb urns

    cam

    April 14, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    Fra,in what universe should a society pay lazy arseholes enough in benefits to smoke and drink?
    That money could be freed up to build hospitals,fund the NHS,help the really needy,pay old folks more money to pay their energy bills.
    Trust me theres gonna be a backlash against the scroungers in society and if the opposition are really interested in helping the working class then lets see their manifesto having a main policy item in bringing to book the scum bankers and money exchangers and corporate tax dodgers.

    Ah Sir Cam o’ the Ogilvie clan yer back from fixin new blades in the shredder.Take it the dinner party with the Dixons from Dock Green went well.

    Great to see @above The Camservative Party going to tackle the scum bankers, moneymen and CTD’s just go easy on the old FC old boy ,they fit into all three categories, the newbies aint any better I hear a plaintiff cry.

    Still like the Ford Escort the Mark 111 was the ‘one to have’.

    here’s a TLA ye just might be reading about soon MVL.

    you heard it here first.

    whit a grim weekend fir ye……..as the old eberdeen paper seller used tae holler on a seterday nicht doon union street….. GREEN FINAL.

    • cam

      Rabbie,good to see you appreciate a proud son of Billy Nimmo.
      Walter and the gang are hatching the rescue mission as we speak,all we need is 4 gallant pioneers.
      A couple of chaps in here have followed the pea using hi tech gear and have concluded that everything is null and void.
      So the SFA/SPL entered into a 5 way shuffle with a non existent company and retained prize money from same ghost,,,oh dear,,,Harper MacLeod are struggling to get paid as it is,,,Billy Nimmo did it all for love and duty.

      • arb urns

        top o’ the mornin tae ye sir c.

        Billy’s decision wisnae worth a goat……. oops typo……..groat………..bryson will need to be rolled out on wheels again and tell us ……look I know I registered this TRFC ( or whatever they are called ) wrong but they are elligible ….. RIGHT… NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES THEY GO PEAR CIDER TITS UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!

        cracking pub quizzer …which football club over the space of nine months had four different names ?

        black mark tae the chickster……. think of aw the boxed sets o’ rangers,sevco5088,sevco scotland and TRFC anythings he could have shifted. Ladies lingerie , melon ballers, gentlemens briefs, scarves, socks and gloves at yuletime…………endless list.

        Think Sir Turncoat might struggle to raleigh up any shekels this time even sally silly salary wont be duped a third time surely.

    • Ed Paisley

      Hi cam. It’s great to have you back on Paul’s site. Most of the time your replies are very funny but sometimes uncharacteristically cruel and snearing. You don’t need to demonise the poor. Mr George Gideon Osborne [£5m trust fund] will do that for you.
      What do you think of that well known scrounger Elizabeth Windsor getting an extra £5m per year to run her household (up to £36m). That’s a 16% increase at a time of extreme public spending cuts. Whatdya think?

      • cam

        Ed i’m poor!
        I demonise the deliberate scroungers.I’m a working class guy with kids an old banger and an old car!,,,Ethel put that rolling pin down!
        I would give my last penny to a deserving case but trust me,every day i see the chancers doing their thing.
        Good Queen Bess is a fantastic lady,her siblings are trumpets of the highest order.
        The majority of British folk love the royal family,,,when that changes we can all sit and watch some crooked politicians sitting at the Palace and then this country is fecked.
        All rise for Her Majesty!

        • Ed Paisley

          Well that makes two of us paupers. But never mind. When I was a wean…cue Tam Cowan’s gag about the empty shoebox and Action Man Deserter.

  30. I’m all for a reasoned discussion of Thatcher’s history, and for the most part the article in the Indy was sound. But the bit about apartheid is living in cloud-cuckoo land. She definitely labelled the ANC “a typical terrorist organisation”. If she though that membership of the ANC didn’t necessarily make you a terrorist then I presume she also thought the same of Bobby Sands. And I don’t think it’s unreasonable to give some weight to remarks made by Bernard Ingham when the discussing her legacy as the man was, you know, her spokesman, and an unusually close one at that (see also: Hillsborough). Thatcher may well have thought that apartheid was evil, but I think it’s fair to say she thought the alternative, elected rule by people with communist links, was far worse (see also: Chile).

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