What A Wonderful Day For Rangers! – by Me at Scotzine

For anyone who just can’t get enough of the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission, I have posted a short piece over at Andy Muirhead’s Scotzine.com.

You can read it by clicking here.

Some of it will be familiar to you if you’ve read all three of my post-verdict posts here today, but not all.

Pop over and have a read, if you want.

Posted by Paul McConville

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341 Comments

Filed under Football Governance, Me at Scotzine, Rangers

341 responses to “What A Wonderful Day For Rangers! – by Me at Scotzine

  1. just wondering , i forget , but does any of this pish have any implication on the TUPE case.
    now that would be interesting if any of this ends up in an actual court of law

  2. mick

    not only the tube put ftt and we dont know if this is the end of the lns report either fans groups are poping up everywere

  3. James C

    I have to say my first reaction to this was wtf!

    Basically found guilty of deliberate non disclosure by the legal entity of critical information regarding players income which they were required to provide. Fined £250K. Not exactly a trival fine for anyone although based on previous comments by rangers on their bills they might view this as walking about money.

    Acknowledged that this was responsibily of company not club so company fined, fair enough

    Club not punished at all as ruling is that players were actually registered as SFA had accepted the registration so no offence committed.

    Unfair advantage is no brainier after that ruling as if player is registered ok the how can there be an unfair advantage, no rule was broken.

    When I reflect on it I actually can see the logic here based on current rules as they do make some sort of sense. Imagine a situation where a player had been registered with a incorrect date of birth by pure accident (this happened to me in my pension fund, they got my dob wrong by 5 years) no one notices for 5 years and he is a team regular. He moves club and it is noticed, should you go back and the rule him as an unregistered player for 5 years? THat could easily bankrupt any club up to and including a man utd if they are suddenly found to have lost the last 50 games 3-0. Not exactly an reasonable outcome.

    What the rules don’t seem to discuss is wilful and deliberately concealing information in the registration.

    So I am reminded of 1st year moral philosophy 20 years ago.

    What is the difference between throwing someone in the river so they drown and watching someone fall in and refusing to throw them a rope.

    In both cases someone died because, one is murder the other is nothing. Both acts are immoral.

    20 years later this still really bothers me.

    To act is not the same as to neglect to act even if the end result is the same.

    Again, I can imagine why, who on earth would do something so so stupid and pointless. there is just no advantage I incorrectly registering a players details.

    They have never said it but I have to conclude that the oldco were basically on the horns of a dilemma,

    1) The promised players massive TAKEHOME salaries as that is just how football payments have evolved players agree net pay not gross.
    2) To make this affordable they bought the EBT scheme
    3) They were trying to state to HMRC that the EBT werent payment to players are that would defeat the whole purpose.
    4) They had to somewhat contradict this with players and their agents as frankly they didn’t trust a verbal agreement so they issued letters

    They deliberate decide not to tell he football authorities, this is not a oversight to be clear, it was deliberate and wilful. If they were not sure you just ask, I have personally spent too many difficult meetings with various regulatory authorities including FDA and Uk Health department over 15 yearsbin my industry to know that if in doubt ASK!! If you don’t ask it because you already know the answer.

    These guys were tax specialists and accountants, done a hundred audits,they know that. Their behaviour is very strange indeeda unless
    within murray land, based on their actions and evidence in various legal/quasi-legal cases it seems a reasonable inferrance that they themselves were really REALLY uncomfortable around what they were doing. They expected to lose the tax case, They didn’t tell the SFA because they were worried it would compromise their position with HMRC,

    Doesn’t even occur to them to worry about SFA as there is 50 million of tax liability to worry about.

    So at the end of frankly my longest ever comment (and on a iPad which is driving me daft with it strange views on predictive text!) a conclusion which as a Celtic fan is a hard one

    The villain of the piece,

    Not rangers, not the SFA. Etc.n rangers just wanted the players, Murray provided all the legal and tax advise etc.

    murray international, they created this total FUBAR mess based on one mans obsession, rangers was just a toy for him the play with.

    Maybe the best lesson rangers fans can draw is dont let your new club becomes a plaything for some sad inadequate who just what’s to be loved, recognise a couple of people?? (sorry slightly cheap shot there but I just don’t buy the club vs company bit, I’m not a lawyer, coudl care less about the legal arguements, i am a believer in moral hazard and common sense so,

    1) there needs to be consequences of just behaving in such a totally reckless manner as MURRAY and Whyte did.
    2) if the club is something that can be bought in this way then it is just a brand, like coke, Johnson baby oil, heineken etc. so rangers (or Celtic or man utd) are no more or less than a brand of beer! Sorry don’t up that either.

    Anyway think I am rambling now and doubt anyone will gets far into my monologue anyway

    • Doc

      Sorry but the example you based on wrong DOB is incorrect. The SFA often oversee the overturning of results and stripping of titles in the kids leagues due to wrong DOB on the registration. A few years ago Liverpool unders had results overturned as one of their playes was registered under an incorrect DOB

  4. willy wonka

    A Bear of another site [FollowFollow if you’re interested] says it much better and in a way even the halfwits could/should understand –
    We can hold our heads high…and it’s time to get the record straight. I am sure like many of you, there are certain myths and accusations out there which really aren’t challenged enough. Let’s do something about that and while we are at it deal with the hypocritical drivel from the east end this evening.

    Firstly we were tax cheats. We weren’t.

    The use of EBTs to pay employees has been around for years and had a proper legislative basis. Murray and Rangers made use of this, a payment structure that was open to all. Hey, guess who else used them? Celtic. Who knows whether any other SPL club used them. Who cares.

    HMRC don’t like EBTs. But they have never defeated them in court. Because they had a legitimate legislative basis. Instead of spending 10 years mumping and moaning about them and failing miserably in court to make their point why didn’t HMRC lobby Govt to introduce the Disguised Remuneration legislation that they eventually got round to introducing in late 2010?

    Secondly, Rangers were immoral. We weren’t.

    The courts are there to rule on the law, not morality. We have a staggeringly pious statement from Celtic about being whiter than white. Oh really. Lets go back to 1997 when Fergus McCann, the man credited with reviving Celtic was running the show. In 1997 VAT Tribunal (Tribunal Number 14762 if you are inclined to look it up in the VAT Case books) considered Celtic’s attempt to delay payment to Customs & Excise (a forerunner to HMRC) of VAT on season ticket sales until each individual match had been played. This gave Celtic a favourable cash flow position, having collected an amount due for VAT from their unsuspecting supporters. More aggressively the ‘voucher’ scheme also attempted to achieve an actual saving of VAT relating to specific matches if the season ticketholder failed to attend any specific match (they’d be rolling in it this year!). In Celtic’s view this saved VAT was a gift from the fan…a gift the fan was entirely unaware of.

    The Tribunal found that Celtic’s aggressive VAT scheme was not effective and, after slamming the scheme, Celtic’s appeal was dismissed. So it seems that our friends across the city are no strangers to trying it on. Apparently that’s all it takes to get accused of being cheats.

    If our detractors truly want to continue the morality line perhaps they could interrupt multi-millionaire Mr Lennon from talking about Rangers to explain the role of morality in his decision to invest in the failed tax wheeze, Innovator One. Note, that was a failed tax scheme, much like Celtic’s VAT scam. And unlike Rangers EBT scheme. Are you spotting the difference?

    Sure HMRC have said they will appeal the Rangers decision. Opinion shopping perhaps. But lets never forget that the only legally objective assessment of our EBT arrangements found in our favour. So all these negative opinions and blogs are baseless.

    Did Rangers gain an advantage in using this scheme?

    Again the only legally objective assessment of this question found the answer to be an emphatic no. But somehow another football club, who did not have privy to the evidence (or given their relationship with Harper Macleod….did they?) still feels it has grounds to comment publicly on this. How staggeringly arrogant and petulant of them.

    I’d rather place more emphasis on the insight offered by Alastair Johnston. Our former chairman explained that for as long as the Murray Group bankers were prepared to extend credit the savings generated by the EBT would have simply been added to Group debt. Over the EBT years this would have amounted to little more than £3m per year. No one can say that, had the EBT not been in place, Rangers would not have fielded the same players in the same games.

    You are guilty of £47m of undisclosed payments?

    Not correct on a couple of fronts. Firstly the payments were publicly disclosed and known to the football authorities for more than 10 years. How can they be secret if they are made public? In fact the first time anyone ever questioned their use was a Rangers fan at an AGM. The press didnt pick up on that at the time…my main guess as to why they didnt is because as well as being largely vindictive….they are thick.

    Further, as SDM has stressed, these payments were not contractual remuneration paid by Rangers. As has been proven by the only independent legal assessment of these payments were bona-fide loans delivered by an independent third party. Why would or should Rangers need to declare these? If they were secret then one could reasonably say they were an ‘open secret’.

    Finally consider this…has there been an SPL comparative investigation into every gift, every bonus and every benefit delivered to every SPL player against what is stipulated in their contracts? Surely sporting integrity would demand parity of treatment and necessitate all clubs to be put under the microscope? And given that Celtic’s lawyers were allowed to represent against us….can we represent again them?

    Ah but what about £15m Craig Whyte didn’t pay.

    Well firstly ponder this….if Craig Whyte truly is an immoral man why does he remain the poster boy of our enemies? The only group who genuinely want Whyte to pay for this deception (remember his shareholder circular…utter pre-mediated fiction) are Rangers supporters. That would be the icing on the cake …a cake in tiers of favourable judgements and viewed in tears by our enemies.

    HMRC’s role in this?

    Not great. Another legal EBT defeat, suspicions of continuous and tolerated information leaks but most damagingly, their inflated weighting in the CVA vote cost the 95% of other creditors who did vote for the agreement real money. That is shameful…and perhaps those oldco creditors could consider a class action against HMRC?

    The football authorities.

    Utterly shameful. A behaviour on a par with the SPL chairlambs who were duped by their bitter and largely absent rabbles and driven by fear. To hell with due process…sign this confessional Charles and we’ll let you have a kick of the ball. Isnt it time to reflect on your failed leadership to look after the interests of a senior member club?

    Rangers died, you are a new club.

    I suspect this will be the last lingering refuge of the hate mob and plain ignorant mhedia reps. But as with everything else you’ve thrown at Rangers, it just is bitter wishful thinking and an untruth. The football authorities at home and abroad have confirmed that we are the same club…..and when we win again it will be 55. Heck, if we want to get petty about it then we might choose to add our WWII titles in the same way a smaller club might include their WWI titles.

    Greetin Face FC’s statement tonight about being whiter than white.

    Guess what, so are we. We are up to date with all of our filings. Same as you. Your pathetic comment about another club is really just a matter of arbitrary timeline memory….because if you want to go further back then I think the skeletons that will fall out of your wardrobe may have you choking on the mute button. When it comes to moralising, you are the hypocrites’ champion hypocrite. Will we need to have a SPL enquiry into the economic benefits conveyed to you from the public purse in 1994 (when you were ‘gifted’ for a penny land by a Celtic supporting council cabal to build the stadium that you used to fill) and in 2014?

    We are where we are……

    Yup, Rangers as popular as ever, the only show in town, and with a spirit of unity and purpose matched by wide open eyes, our future is bright. And having heard Celtic’s pitiful rallying call to arms and seen Lenny’s priceless interview….it will be us laughing tonight and looking forward to a bouncing day at 5 star Ibrox. How does that make you feel dear haters? I will leave you with 5 words. Get It Right Up Ye.

    Lol.

    • tykebhoy

      Wanka your friend write a load of whataboutery and a load of what dogs lick

      “Firstly we were tax cheats. We weren’t.”

      Err sorry MIH admitted liability on some of the EBTs and the FTT found liability in more

      ” as long as the Murray Group bankers were prepared to extend credit the savings generated by the EBT would have simply been added to Group debt”

      Doesn’t exactly fit well with the statement

      “Secondly, Rangers were immoral. We weren’t.”

      “Firstly the payments were publicly disclosed and known to the football authorities for more than 10 years. ”

      Care to provide documentary proof of that. Part of a consolidated figure in the audited (oops) accounts and certainly not being directly attributed to payments to players does not make it publiclly disclosed although we do know of at least one person in authority at the SFA who has known about if for over 10 years

      ” these payments were bona-fide loans ”
      The FTTT didn’t agree that for all cases and the SPL commission certainly didn’t fall for the loan argument.hence the guilty verdict.

      “Whyte to pay for this deception (remember his shareholder circular…utter pre-mediated fiction) ”
      Funny how the first people to point out Whyte’s deceptions were, and for the most part still are. labelled “Rangers haters”. As for Whyte witholding £15m there is no proof that he personally trousered that money and plenty of proof he used it to cover up a football club’s parent company trading while insolvent in an attempt for said football club to complete the season

      “Not great. Another legal EBT defeat, suspicions of continuous and tolerated information leaks but most damagingly, their inflated weighting in the CVA vote cost the 95% of other creditors who did vote for the agreement real money.”

      Not a total defeat and if they win an appeal they will have a legal precedent that the First Tier Tribunal can not. Its a bit rich of a supporter of the deid club to be worried about the creditors its parent company screwed but I believe the statement to be factually incorrect. HMRC were owed over 25% of Oldcclubs parent’s debt. So would still have been able to block the CVA. I stand to be corrected but D&P handed over the “creditors pot ” to BDO who will adjust the % payouts based on revised proportions of the debt.

      ” with a spirit of unity and purpose”
      Unity land purpose like that displayed in Berwick last week. Or was this a small minority of Sevconians infiltrated by a horde of travelling Chelski fans

      • willy wonka

        The usual “whatabootery”. Both the FTTT and Nimmo Smiths panel found that despite forensic examination only a few minor clauses in bits of paperwork hadn’t been handled properly.
        NO £100 million tax bill. In fact, practically nothing.
        NO titles stripped. In fact, NO sporting advantage gained either directly or indirectly.
        Funny that – Ten-names, RTC, CQN and the vast majority on here to name but a few, saw a completely different outcome.
        It’s amazing what happens when those examining the cases not only know what they are talking about but are also not blinded by sheer hatred.
        Lol.

        • Vega

          Willy, when you talk of myths you only speak of what the enemy is saying, yet you trot out the everything coming from The Rangers as if it were fact.

          Where in the LNS report does it talk of minor clauses in bits of paperwork? You’re posting on someone’s blog. At least have the decency to read the original posts. You may learn something.

          The FTTT found by majority in favour of The Rangers. Whilst I can’t and wouldn’t argue with that judgement there was still one dissenting opinion.

          Enjoy your moment.

          • willy wonka

            Oh, I’ve been reading other folks original posts on their blogs since all this hysteria first began. Especially the sellik-minded ones. Without exception they all got it wrong.
            Proof ? No outrageous figure owed in tax. No titles stripped.
            Still, yet again, the ‘one dissenting voice’ point comes up. The panel decided two to one in Rangers favour. Get over it.
            I’m not only enjoying my moment. I’m loving it.

            • cam

              Yup,it sure is fun going back and reading a few comments and squaring them with reality.
              I get the sense that the war is all but over,folk are getting weary, and only fundaMENTALists like Phil, are frantically running about trying to gather a platoon for another daring commando raid.
              That poor soul will become more and more ridiculous looking as time goes by.
              Like the nutter at a Speakers corner, rambling on about the end of days,folk will cease to pause and listen,and walk by feeling sorry for him.
              Eventually, as he gets more extreme,in order to keep the audience he craves,someone will complain, and the guys in white uniforms will take him away for much needed help.
              He saw his moment,was nearly over the finishing line and with one moment of revealing madness,dropped the ball.
              Publicly smeared, and left on the fringe of a profession,that after the Leveson debacle,frankly doesn’t need him.
              Commander Leggo and Agent Orange are handing out 48hr passes to the front line troops.
              There are some minor, mopping up skirmishes ahead.
              The fanatics are burning their files,some are disposing of their uniforms and attempting to pass themselves off as civilians,but a good few fancy a last glorious stand.
              The bumbling,inefficient,early days of the Gers,B.E.F are over.
              The blue bloggers are battle ready and well drilled.
              Regan,Doncaster,Whyte,RTC,the Ibrox mole and others shall have their day of questioning and i’m volunteering for firing squad detail.
              Happy V.E day to Walters Blue Army,we have the small matter of the enemy in the east to deal with.

          • @Vega

            “minor clauses”? Deliberate non-disclosure. You, me & the world know they’re not the same thing: But this pathetic excuse for a human being? Not worth wasting your time on.

    • Vega

      Whatever you say…

      • @Willy,
        help me out here. It is oft stated that Rangers were guilty at most of a small administrative error. The only inference to this from all the evidence presented in the FTT(T) decision that i can find (and admitted i may have missed it …), was surrounding the 5 players whose paperwork did not fit with the scheme as presented by Rangers. Accepted that there will always be occassional errors in paprework and i have absolutely no problem with that. Interestingly, LNS commission also made no reference to this and rather included all 108 player EBT’s (is that the right number …. can’t be botheree to check !) ….. and this would be my only counter, well possibly also that the above was not included in the FTT(T) Findings-of-Fact, but that is irrelevent in what i am asking i would concede.

        So to help myself, and presumably others, can you clarify that this is indeed what yourself and others are indeed referring to. It is not in any way a ‘trick’ or leading question. At least not intended, but just an honest question. Infact, i believe it then supports such a statement whenever made.

        In support of my theory on this i include the statement from RSA to BBC and in fairness i include his complete statement so as not to be accussed of taking anything out of context………

        Rangers Supporters Association’s John Macmillan (From BBC statement)

        “I’m sure Charles Green and Ally McCoist are delighted that we’re not losing the titles. And, after all, that was the main thing we were concerned about.

        “I think the ‘newco’ have held their hands up and said ‘yes, we appear to have had an administration problem here’.

        “I’m led to believe there’s only a handful of players involved, up to five, certainly no more than that I believe. It had nothing to do with evading tax or evading penalties.

        “What I would like to see now is a line drawn in the sand.”

        Thanks in advance

        • cam

          Doesn’t,in the real world,matter any more newtz.
          The bloggers,clever commentors like yourself can plough through the semantics and spot the flaws.Paul can give a legal slant to it and Brogan Rogan Hogan and Trevino can clatter out an interminable rant.
          Their can be nothing more infuriating to an educated chap like your good self, standing up in this House of Commoners,making a damn fine point and being shouted down by the masses.
          We’re driving the bus again newtz,we haven’t got a full licence and we’re not giving way,it is pedal to the metal time,next stop, the top of the hill,while the Celtic bus is in the terminus under repair.
          meep meep!

          • Quite right cam ….. it don’t matter in the real world ……
            Still having a sit-in protest til @Willy answers though ……. newtz needs clarification ………… lol ……….. i promise …. it is not a trick question ….. waiting !

            • willy wonka

              Apologies Newtz. It’s now 10.20pm and I’ve just returned home after attending a noon kick off [some who post on all matters football do actually attend games lol]. Following the match I met my good lady in the city centre where we dined finely before traipsing around the bright lights of Glasgow.
              I’ll get back to you after my morning muesli.

        • @newtz

          81 sub-trusts set up for RFC players. “No more than 5” total nonsense: 36 out of the 81 were liable for social taxes; 5 of the 50 tested by FTT + 31 admitted before the FTT even sat.

          Add the fact that LNS found them guilty of all 4 charges (deliberate non-disclosure x 3 plus failure to co-operate) and it’s clear to see there was “something wrong in the state of Ibrox.”

    • arb urns

      wow thats been in there for a while ww.cant be bothered dissecting it all ,also way too much whataboutery from decades ago.

      tax cheats ? i dunno but the dos scheme wasnt right and a fair few of the ebt’s werent right so its in the eye of the beholder also the withholiding of paye,enic and vat so you didnt go bust earlier, tax cheating ? if u say its not then presumably you think you are right.

      ebts info publicly available u only needed to ask !!!!!!!

      hector tried and needed a police raid to get the info so joe soap wasnt going to get anywhere was he.

      the evidence had been shredded bar some guy from ‘berwick’ if memory serves me anyway.

      i am interested in you guys wanting to “hold your heads high” and “set the record straight” and have therefore directed BDO to your post to send out a Gratuitous Alienation Proposal, to compensate chico to date, repossess Ibrox etc etc , leaseback by way of a 20 year rental at say £5m per year or until whatever you ‘walked away’ from is satisfied ,from facepainters to the taxpayers UK your club evaded paying.

      then you could have been said to be able to hold your heads high and have set the record straight AND ‘BE A MAN MY SON’ after all you are supposed to not do walkin away.

      ps be careful of scapegoating craigie you are going to need him onside down the line.

      • willy wonka

        I’ve already posted on this and other blogs on here that Whyte will quite rightly end up in jail for what he did at Ibrox. So don’t throw up witheld tax , insurance and vat by him as a bat to beat Rangers fans with.
        If you read the post above by the guy from FF you’ll see he [again quite rightly] points out that the only folk with posters of Whyte up on their walls are those of a sellik disposition. You’ve just confirmed that. Well done.
        Lol.

    • cam

      Just read all of that willy and i friggin loved it,,,,the last five words were an error though,,,,they should have been capitalized and in a bigger,bolder font!

  5. Den

    Quite a reaction to the LNS report.

    Given some of reactions of euphoria and despair, you would think that Rangers were found not guilty on all charges.

    Truth is they were found guilty on all charges. It was hard to see a different outcome and I therefore think it was fair.

    To many, the verdict seems to be less important than sanction. I would only be disappointed if I wanted a devastating punishment for Rangers, equally I would only be celebrating if I feared the same.

    We had 3 QCs take a month to produce the report, I find the reasoning very interesting and considered comment from the likes of Paul has helped me vaguely understand the issues.

    I have a number of areas that I would like clarified, not because I disagree with the Panel but because I don’t understand the subtleties.

    The football authorities have a lot of work ahead in revising their rules, unless they enjoy huddling about and being humiliated.

    • willy wonka

      “We therefore proceed on the basis that the breach of the rules relating to disclosure DID NOT GIVE RISE TO ANY SPORTING ADVANTAGE DIRECT OR INDIRECT. We do not therefore propose to consider those sanctions which are of a sporting nature. “

      • tykebhoy

        GUILTY ON ALL 4COUNTS

        • willy wonka

          “We therefore proceed on the basis that the breach of the rules relating to disclosure DID NOT GIVE RISE TO ANY SPORTING ADVANTAGE DIRECT OR INDIRECT. We do not therefore propose to consider those sanctions which are of a sporting nature. “

        • portpower

          47,000,000 Guilty Counts. Arrrr,Arrrr,Arrrrrr. Will sevco be next to suck Scottish Football Dry?

          • willy wonka

            You obviously didn’t read the earlier post –
            ” £47 million ? Firstly the payments were publicly disclosed and known to the football authorities for more than 10 years. How can they be secret if they are made public? In fact the first time anyone ever questioned their use was a Rangers fan at an AGM. The press didnt pick up on that at the time…my main guess as to why they didnt is because as well as being largely vindictive….they are thick.

            Further, as SDM has stressed, these payments were not contractual remuneration paid by Rangers. As has been proven by the only independent legal assessment of these payments were bona-fide loans delivered by an independent third party. Why would or should Rangers need to declare these? If they were secret then one could reasonably say they were an ‘open secret’. ”
            Lol.

      • Den

        P31 Para 106, your emphasis added. They didn’t consider any sporting sanctions.

        I think you have posted this extract a few times.

        • willy wonka

          Yes, I have. And will continue to do so in reply to every halfit who maintains Rangers won matches, titles or cups by cheating.
          We didn’t. It’s that simple.

          • Den

            You posted in reply to my post, therefore I am a “halfwit who maintains Rangers won matches, titles or cups by cheating”.

            I would like to see where I said anything about cheating. I never did.

            • willy wonka

              Here’s what you posted – ” Given some of reactions of euphoria and despair, you would think that Rangers were found not guilty on all charges.
              Truth is they were found guilty on all charges.”

              Rangers weren’t found gulity of what every sellik-minded blog had said they would be . No sporting advantage direct or indirect was the decision arrived at. That’s why no titles were stripped.

            • Den

              I know what I posted. I didn’t require a selective quotation which, in any case didn’t refer in any way to cheating. It pointed out that Rangers were found guilty of non disclosure as charged.

              I asked you to show where I referred to cheating, nothing I posted refered to cheating.

              If you read my whole post, the point I was making was that the reaction by a lot of people was over emotional.

              I said I accepted the decision and and wanted to further understand the reasoning by the panel, not because I was quibbling just for my own education.

              I was accurate with the facts, my opinions were clearly stated which people are quite entitled to disagree with.

              i didn’t refer to cheating on behalf of Rangers in the above, or ever.

              You didn’t answer my request.

              “I would like to see where I said anything about cheating”

          • Vega

            Any match won in the 2012/2013 season was won with the assistance of £9-15m that other teams didn’t have the benefit of. And yet you still question where your second place prize money went.

            That would be cheating in my book…

            I assume you’re not going to claim that Rangers paid their taxes under Craig Whyte?

            • Vega

              D’oh, that would be this season. Make that 2011/2012. The rest still stands.

            • Budweiser

              vega
              See my enquieries to willi. It seems craigie boy was nothong to to with the rangers. He was a bab boy who sneaked under the rangers dignity umbrella and created all this big bad mess -naughty boy.——and the band played believe it you like.

            • Bill

              Nobody Knows if the other teams had any financial benefits..they weren’t investigated .

            • Vega

              Bill, We know everyone else paid their taxes (good on ye Jambos) or are you suggesting Her Maj only has it in for her own first eleven?

            • willy wonka

              Would you mind explaining that one to me ? What £9-15m ?
              Whyte ? Already answered that one. I fully expect and hope he’s going to jail.

            • Maggie

              @Den
              You should know by now Den,that Sevconians never let something as
              trivial as FACTS get in the way of their complete immorality and lack
              of ethical behaviour around everything pertaining to thon deid club
              fae Govan and their support of it.

              “The non disclosure of the payments was deliberate” LNS FACT
              If you have nothing to hide,why hide it?
              It was neither an oversight nor a clerical error.I just love the
              spin around that one,as if Campbell Ogilvie ( saw nothing,heard
              nothing,knew nothing,) in a bit of a rush,happened to put the
              wrong digit in wee ned Bazza’s date of birth.PUHLEASE!!!!!!

              The prevarication and stalling tactics employed by Rangers and
              their continual efforts to avoid being transparent was according to
              LNS ” A serious breech of the rules” FACT
              If you have nothing to hide,why hide it?

              On trying to establish why Rangers had deliberately withheld
              information about the side letters he found …..
              ” That the evidence CLEARLY indicates a view among the
              management of oldco that it might have been detrimental to
              the desired tax treatment of the payments being made to have
              disclosed the existence of these side letters to the football
              authorities.”
              What are we to deduce from that then? The board of oldco
              “had reservations” ( let’s just call it that,shall we? ) about
              the legalities of their cunning plan.
              Better just keep this under the radar guys,just on the off
              chance that Mr Baxendale Walker is a bit of a chancer,and has
              sold us a “crock”

              I posted these on Thursday Den,but I think they bear another outing
              just in case the Sevconians,who as you know, lack competency in
              the higher order reading skills,especially reading for information and
              understanding.

              “You can’t escape moral judgement through a legal loophole”
              Michael Josephson. WHATWILLMATTER.COM

              Re title stripping :
              “Dignity consists not in possessing honours,but in the
              consciousness that we DESERVE them” Aristole

              That’s all that has ever mattered to me,that they be found guilty
              as charged.They are morally and ethically guilty of underhanded
              practises in order to gain unfair advantages.
              Dignity FC indeed.

            • @Maggie

              Another thing they seem to have forgotten (even though it’s there for all to see) – prior to LNS sitting many posters, (including myself) put up numerous comments to the effect that:

              1. RFC1872 are Guilty.

              2. Title stripping, rather than being the least punishment people wanted to see, was in fact the least of the 19 sanctions available to LNS.

              But they’re too busy celebrating an all-points defeat to notice simple things like the truth.

          • portpower

            G6.1.3 impose a fine; Guilty. It`s that simple.

            • cam

              Poor Maggie,her ipad is vexing her,she takes the PMacG route in discriminating against Gers fans as intellectually inferior, and pads out her rant with some quotes.
              The Apple store can fix the first, mixing with real folk will address the second ,and originality is always better than the third.
              Me,i’m taking the fifth

            • david

              Maggie, I think you will find that many ” Sevconians ” whom you so disparage have a much higher level of competency than you.
              I would also think that their reading habits comprise more than 3 copies of ” Downfall” , that atrocious rubbish written by ………. well , pointless going over all his many issues.
              You seem to be taking on his favourite theme of denigration and demonisation.
              Pathetic.

      • beemacel

        Oh Willy, you really are a Wanka. You have been on here all day contributing nothing but nonsense. I tend now to skip your posts since they are guaranteed to offer nothing in the way of meaningful discussion. I gave in to your most recent post only because your capitalised drivel was jumping out at me. Deep down you may well be a fine fellow but please give up the keyboard at least until you can think of something useful to say. I’m off to bed now. Good night and God bless!

        • willy wonka

          I’ve been on here all day in an attempt to point out that the vast majority of the posters on here have been proved WRONG in quite spectacular fashion. All those months of you guys spinning out rumour, half-truths, fantasy, wishes and downright lies. And what was the result ? You got a panel full of integrity and above reproach . What did they decide ? That you were all WRONG ! Rangers didn’t cheat to win titles or cups. The silverware was won because Rangers were the better team.
          But then, I already knew that. Lol.

  6. Den

    Huddling should be guddling.

    Doesn’t really make it any better I suppose.

  7. Budweiser

    cam

    Re. last night ,and shirer’s third reich. Old school , but Liddell Hart’s ‘The Other Side Of The Hill’ is definitely worth a read. Ld interrogated hitlers generals as part of his remit in ‘intelligence’after the war. I have a copy but don’t know if this is widely availiable amazon etc as it is circa 1948.

  8. portpower

    47 million reasons over a 11 year span,Guilty. Could`nt even save 250000 for a rainy day? Can`t be paid if it does`nt exist(IL). Enjoy you`re adventure sevco. Don`t end up at Monto.
    You`ve hored Scottish Football enough.

  9. arb urns

    what a wonderful day for golf- the march medal, full course no winter greens, the bookies have me jt second favourite, clubs and shoes all belisha polished up, pack of three new pro v1’s to play with. lifes grand,

    s h one tee i threw all my puma tops in the clothes bank at Ibrox Tesco last night nothing to wear.

    Aha just found a moth eaten, holed, old WINCHEATER at the bottom of that knicker drawer that Cam thinks I cant get to !!!!!! watch this space CamGER

    • cam

      Fore!
      I predict a snap hook into some bluebells at the first,some decent recovery shots and an inability to hole out!
      Your stance is all wrong,feet too close together,i think its been a while since you’ve had your grip,sorry,grips redone.
      The belly putter will leave you,like the FTTT,feeling sick.You should try the Rangers broomhandle putter,,,great for sweeping into the bunker.
      Have you tried one of those Japanese ball cleaners?

  10. Wasp

    I am staggered, on seeing some of the sums involved in the EBT scheme, that Rangers could end up in the situation they have found themselves in given the savings they will have made on tax, the prize money they will have acquired in Scotland from winning leagues etc and the cash which will have resulted from being in the Champions League. The financial mismanagement is actually far greater than I had realised. Catastrophic stuff….
    I would be inclined to be taking far more pot shots at Mr Murray (who seems to have something of a dictatorship given Mr Ogilvie’s disclosure that board meetings were not commonplace) if I were a Rangers fan than firing off at every other club in Scotland. It appears to me that he is the man who has brought the club (company ?) to its knees.

    Also, could someone with more brainpower than I have please explain to me why, if the EBT payments were discretionery, there was any need at all for these side contracts ? It would give the impression that the players felt they were entitled to these by right which seems odd given the nature of the scheme………..? Surely there should be no need of such a side contract/back letter/dual contract (whatever you want to call it) if payments were at the discretion of Rangers or MIM or whoever.

    Of course, their existence then made it difficult for the tax and registration issues to be squared. Surely Mr Murray would not have been thinking in these terms as that would suggest a feeling on his part that the EBT scheme (in the particular way it was being operated by Rangers) had certain issues. That is difficult to imagine given his bullish comments about the chances of success in the BTC.

    But then again, why did he sell the club (company ?) to Mr Whyte for a pound.

    Oh what a tangled web is weaved…….

    And what a shambles. What an incredible litany of utter mismanagement.

  11. Dougie Dixon

    By the time Sevco (or whoeva they are) get back up to the SPL we will have won five untainted further titles. They will, of course, have been deprived of winning any, so justice of some sort… their hand-shaking their way out of a meaningful punishment for being guilty of double contracts was always a possibility. Sometimes, justice is not seen to be done – at these times, usually the ‘establishment’ is the culprit. This has been one these times.

    • cam

      Unfortunately Dougie,the Lennon titles will all have a hollow feel to them.
      Wee Lenny is cavorting in Odysseus’s house,but when we return to string our bow,,,watch out!

      • Wasp

        Cam

        Away to the gowf as well in a minute. Enjoy your game.

        I imagine Mr Lennon probably feels more like Heracles in a particular stables at the moment….

    • portpower

      More than 17 adventures next season? Do we think that they`ll do 2 in a row?

    • Adam

      The titles are tainted. They are tainted as playing in a competition with no competition.

      As is Rangers title this season as well incidentally. Enjoy what crumbs of comfort you can get.

      • Den

        Adam,

        Whatever you think of the opposition they are competition and are the best Scotland has to offer.

        Why is Rangers title tainted?

        • Adam

          Because in my view, we are not playing in a true competition. I know its just an opinion but thats my view. The SPL and the 3rd division really are races with 1 horse. Neither of them can lose.

          • Den

            I was curious as I would use another word, perhaps uncompetitive, even devalued. Tainted just seemed to imply wrongdoing/ cheating

            You can only beat who is in front of you.

  12. portpower

    Skirt sponsor for sevco: Does`nt the puma look like a cheetah.

  13. Adam

    So lets say there was a fan base of a football team. And that fan base openly talked and joked about false attendance figures. The same fan base used to laugh when their ground was full to the gunnels and the official attendance was disclosed as 43,000. “ha ha, there were people on the pitch side, it was that full” were the cries.

    Now that the LNS enquiry is over and no sporting advantage was gained, will people demand an enquiry into attendances throughout the late 70s and 80s and ask what happened to the money collected from non disclosed supporters in the ground if what they said at the time was actually true ?

    Do people care if the public purse has potentially been robbed of tax from undeclared supporters ?

    • Raymilland

      Is there to be any further consequences from the LNS findings?

      The commission ruled Rangers “did not gain any unfair competitive advantage”.

      The insertion of the word “unfair” is crucial. From the above it is implied that Rangers did gain a fair competitive advantage (simply because the player registrations were not revoked). The legality of that advantage is confirmed.

      An advantage was gained by RFC due the rest of the clubs adhering to the rules of registration.

      This entire farce is caused by the SPL/SFA decision not to rescind the registrations when first being made aware of the side letters of which RFC had deliberately kept hidden.

      The LNS commission could only respond to the matter as handled by the SFA/SPL.

      It is apparent that the SFA/SPL has failed in its duty to the clubs under their governance

      The above ruling bodies have already tried to defend their position by implying that the game faced “Armageddon” if that one particular club was brought to task.

      Preferential treatment of any one club is not an option.

      The game is up; the day of reckoning has come for those in office at Mount Florida.

      • Adam

        Im surprised that anyone is surprised that the SFA or SPL rules are anything but silly. Im sure everyone can remember the Neil Lennon suspension fiasco where Paul McBride drove a bus right through them…..and rightly so.

        Funny though, it was howls of laughter at that one at the time.

        • Raymilland

          I@adam

          I do agree there is a lot of dark humour related to this story; in reality; there is not much to cause belly laughter for either side of the divide.

          You may be right about silly rules though; rules are for mugs; don’t you think?

        • cam

          Yup,the UEFA view that clubs shouldn’t take their FA’s to task by lawyers was conveniently forgotten then.
          But i did admire Mr McBride, for handing the SFA’s arse to them on a plate.
          Just like LNS did to Rod,who is looking at his well proportioned posterior right now, and saying, “do i look stupid in this?”

    • Den

      I would be furious if the public purse was robbed in this manner, or any manner.

      On past performance I wouldn’t stick my neck on your evidence and in this case you just have a few, so called, Celtic fans.

      In the past you have cast doubt on the the veracity and motives of such people.

      Do you have another evidence that will justify me instructing counsel in this matter.

  14. Adam

    Just reading Neil Lennons comments. I wonder if the same people who accuse Green of playing to the gallery will think the same about Neil.

    Of course not !

    • not nearly dead but really dead

      did neil lennon state something that wasnt fact?

      • cam

        I couldn’t tell, his raging face scared me and killed the budgie.
        I would love to interview him,what a prize melon to twist.
        He reminds me of Roy Keane,his face lends itself so easily to rage.
        My favourite Keano clip is when Man Utd played Bayern, and he went toe to toe with Stefan Effenberg,,,his bottle crashed at warp 10

    • Raymilland

      @adam

      NL has every right to feel let down (disgusted); don’t forget that he played for those titles (now certainly tainted; as confirmed by LNS).

      • Adam

        There was no sporting advantage. Why should he feel let down? Surely, as we have been all told for weeks in the run up to it, you 100% accept the independent decision.

        • not nearly dead but really dead

          erm the decision was guilty was it not?

          • Adam

            There was no sporting advantage. That was the verdict was it not ?

            • not nearly dead but really dead

              no… the verdict was guilty.

            • Adam

              “Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL Rules” Thats what the 100% independent commission ruled despite the best efforts of lawyers who represent Celtic Football Club

            • not nearly dead but really dead

              here we go again mentioning celtic when i give you the VERDICT
              im not speaking as a celtic fan so F@$k off on that
              you just give me the reason for no title striping , im giving you the VERDICT

            • Den

              Adam

              Could you give the page number and paragraph for your reference below. Not disputing it but I like to go back to the source where I can

              March 2, 2013 at 12:07 pm

              “Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL Rules” Thats what the 100% independent commission ruled despite the best efforts of lawyers who represent Celtic Football Club

          • Raymilland

            Spot the difference?

            Ranger FC did gain a fair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL Rules.

            “Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL Rules”

            Which ever way you look at it; a competitive advantage is gained in both cases

            In any event; the law dictates that the above competitive advantage is legal.

      • willy wonka

        As tainted as the Rangers scarf he spat on was ?
        Horrible little maggot.

  15. not nearly dead but really dead

    i propose the moving of ‘rangers fc’ franchise to the top tier of football, they wont be playing in europe for a couple of years,no need to kid on that it is a competition, the rest of us should as i am hearing ‘move on, for the good of the game’. we must give the ball back to ‘rangers fc’ it was never ours to play with in the first place, its back with the rightful owners now shut up little man and go home

    • Adam

      As Paul Brennan from Celticquicknews would tell you “This is an independent commission, anyone who tells you otherwise is deluded.”

      • not nearly dead but really dead

        show me in that post where i mentioned the comission, im just telling you how it is.
        ‘rangers fc’ ball then, ‘rangers fc’ ball now, ‘rangers’fc’ ball forever
        im off to accept the LNS enquiry like a good boy, just like i should have accepted the wiggery enquiry!
        apologies to all involved in that scandal, not on the same scale but i think you see the point im making

      • Raymilland

        @adam

        Yes; the LNS Commission is independent. As stated above in my earlier post; the legitimacy of the player registration is found due to the application being allowed to stand without question by the administrator.

        • Raymilland

          @adam

          The LNS inquiry was commissioned by the same body responsible for the registration of players; LNS has identified the problem.

          The above ‘problem’ should have been addressed prior to the involvement of the commission. Of course if that the above ‘problem’ had been thoroughly addressed at the relevant time; there would be no need for the commission.

          The administrator should have, at very least, revoked the players registrations; pending further inquiry.

      • willy wonka

        Only up until they reached the correct decision ! Another deluded fud.
        Lol.

  16. notnearlydeadbutreallydead

    double post. sorry

  17. mick

    at the end of the day the sevco has shown the world the true face rejoicing in victory but found guilty this is the actions of pety criminals throw out the land monday to friday they cheat lied and stole from the tax purse they are bad apples at every level and now look like a bunch of pety criminals ,they have shown there true mantality and its stinks

    • cam

      Aye mick it is a sore one for you to take.All those months of listening to your big hitters in blogland wasted.
      Built you up and then let you down.
      What are you gonna fill your life with now mate?
      Never mind OG and the other nutters will think up something.

  18. cam

    Mick,you let me down as well.
    I thought you would have been man enough to take yer lumps,but no you bottled it.
    If LNS had delivered the loon balls preferred verdict you would have been in here more than me posting videos,giving it Billy No’well,Tommy Gold,the lot.
    You’re now yesterdays man mick.
    If LNS had sent Lenny round in a taxi to Ibrox with a legal seizure order, i would have been in here taking on all comers.
    Another one who can dish it out, but when the bugle sounds ,he’s hiding in the shed.

  19. BB

    Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. HG Wells

  20. Wasp

    Finding this whole thing quite odd.

    Rangers found guilty of the charges they faced.

    Rangers’ fans happy.

    Quite bizarre……!!

    • Adam

      Finding this whole thing quite odd.

      Rangers fans told they should accept whatever decision the independent commission reached and do.

      Celtic’ fans still no happy.

      Quite bizarre……!!

      • Wasp

        I’m not a Celtic fan, Adam.

        I can see that the Rangers’ fans have accepted the decision from the tribunal but they don’t seem to be commenting on the actual verdict itself – rather, they seem to be, to all intents and purposes, making no comment on the guilty verdict itself.

        This is clear from your response as well. You don’t seem unhappy with the verdict as far as I can make out and I am interested why.

        Your response make assumptions about me and avoids any answer by referring to another football team’s fans.

        For my part, if my club had been found guilty of these charges and received a verdict of this nature, with the comments made by Lord Nimmo Smith, I would be mortified.

        I just find it odd that the Rangers support do not seem to find much to comment on with regard to the verdict itself for some reason.

        • willy wonka

          Another Albion Rovers fan ?
          Lol.

          • Wasp

            Willy

            No, not an Albion Rovers fan either. Why do you find it so difficult to get your head round the fact that not everyone in Scotland supports either Celtic or Rangers AND that people do not tell lies when they state that they do not support Celtic when they post that as the case ?

            This whole matter surrounding Rangers is, whether you like it or not, a big (and interesting) story given they were one of the two biggest football clubs in the country. It has had, and continues to have, an impact which is being felt throughout Scottish football and, as such, interests me and many others.

            By the way, I support my local team – as I am sure you will do as well as I assume you will be from Glasgow.

        • Adam

          What assumptions are you talking about ? Where did i say you were a Celtic supporter ?

          As for my view on the verdict then just as i said on a number of occassions prior to the outcome,i fully accept LNS decision on the matter.

          • Wasp

            My apologies, Adam. I had taken that as implied from the wording of your response. If that was not what was meant, then my fault.

      • Loadofmalarkey

        Quite Bizarre, I know you don’t really mean that!

        It is definitely a step in the right direction that Rangers fans, such as yourself, accept that Rangers have broken a number of rules, albeit in a manner that did not apparently give rise to an unfair sporting advantage. It allows the process to move forward to a resolution.

        It is also certainly understandable that other fans (not just of the green persuasion) will find this difficult to accept given that this sporting advantage position was acknowledged by Rangers as the reason for utilising EBTs in the FTT, and given that the LNS verdict did not detailed how the avoidance of millions of pounds of tax, does not translate into an advantage on the field of play.

        I think that the right of appeal is a very important part of the judgmental process and this should be recognised and accepted by all parties, no matter what the outcome of the initial inquiry. When all avenues have been exhausted, or neither party wants to take it further, then it is to be expected that, like it or not, the decision has to be accepted, but certainly not before that.

        On that note, have the SFA, through Regans comments, indicated that neither party will appeal or has he just prejudiced the SFAs position on any appeal?

        • Adam

          How can a party appeal when they set up the commission in the first place and appointed an independent judge ?

          • Wasp

            Adam

            Could you enlighten me as to why the bulk of the Rangers’ support seem so happy at being found guilty though ? I had expected them to be up in arms at the thought that a guilty verdict had been handed down but it seems exactly the opposite.

            As I have said above………bizarre !!

            • Adam

              If we are being honest about it then for the overwhelming majority of people on the internet, it was only ever about the titles. Non Rangers fans wanted them stripped and Rangers fans wanted to keep them. The rest was a side show.

              No unfair sporting advantage was gained so no titles stripped. Thats why Gers fans are happy, pure and simple.

          • Loadofmalarkey

            Had the commission not been independent and instead been performed internally by members of the SPL I would agree that one could not appeal such a judgment. Indeed, in that circumstance I agree that it would be bizarre to appeal, however, it was, as you correctly stated, independant and therefore I think there will be a right of appeal. In terms of an appeal, it would also be interesting if other affected parties could appeal the judgement.! Paul, do you have an opinion on the possibility of an appeal by the SPL or other parties?

            I also take note of Mr Loannidis opinion who has posted the following tweet.

            @LawTop20: The SPL could appeal yesterday’s verdict, as well as other parties with a legal interest. But there is no direct right of appeal to CAS

  21. Den

    I posted some thoughts on the LNS report. I thought it was fairly factual and not that contentious.

    I was called a halfwit and berated for something I didn’t write.

    When requested: clarification was not forthcoming. I wouldn’t want or expect any form of apology or retraction, a polite response would have been welcome.

    Maggie refers to Sevconians, I don’t like generalisations I am referring to one individual.

    Don’t get me wrong. Being insulted by someone using the name Willy Wonka doesn’t hurt me (in fact I can’t help finding it funny): however it is disappointing that people choose to adopt this method of expressing themselves.

    I found this site and started to contribute because it was the most balanced I had found. The information and comments on the unfolding events was fascinating and the lack of stupid sectarian abuse was refreshing and very important to me.

    Given that some people seem to think it is OK to insult others and to post the same thing time after time maybe I am out of tune with the prevailing ethos.

    I am torn between natural cussedness and the best physical self protection advice I was ever given “avoid arseholes and avoid places where arseholes go” . It worked for me; so far.

    Not saying anyone who posts here is an arsehole. Believe me if I wanted to call someone such a name I would do so directly and unequivocally. What I feel is that this blogg has has more inarticulate posters and hostile trolls than when i found it, maybe I would be serving myself best by not being on this site.

    Having said a that Paul and other brilliant people have contributed analysis that has made the LNS report much more accessible me, as with the Fttt, insolvent act and company law. Great education at no cost, if you have the will to learn.

    The future of this blogg will be decided by the majority. I hope the intelligent and moderate posters up their output to counteract the determined troll then onslaught, just don’t let them drag you down is what they do best.

  22. Den

    Now I am a clown !

    I just realised that I never disputed being a half wit.

    Is clown better than half wit ?

    Does being at a football match absolve you from any courtesy ?

    These and many more questions !

    • Wasp

      Den

      In Willy’s world, I imagine you would be regarded as a clown for not disputing that you are a half wit ! Anyone that throws comments about like that makes it so much more difficult to regard him and his comments seriously.

      Unfortunately it is the name calling etc which takes away from any reasonable debate and, as a result, lessens the enjoyment of entering into the debate in the first place.

      • Den

        It would be nice to have a forum where you could post without being personally insulted. I guess that is not the way it is or is going to be.

        i would re-iterate that I am not bothered by the insults and will continue to put my views respectfully.

        i think I have made my point and no sense labouring it.

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