Why Rangers International’s Higher Market Cap Does Not Mean It Is Worth More Than Celtic by Mícheál

 

The following comment was posted on a thread yesterday by Mícheál. As he managed to say what I was going to say about market capitalisation and values in a far more elegant and far shorter way, I thought I would post it as a post, for anyone who might have missed it. I think he was writing in response to Clarkeng who wanted to make clear, over a large number of comments (and I am happy for him to participate so enthusiastically) that RIFC PLC was “worth” more than Celtic as a result of the share prices.

He also says kind words about me, but has a warning, of which I am very conscious, of how the blog could lose its value. (And by value I mean an entirely non-financial value – I am not looking to sell the blog off – unless of course some tycoon wants to buy it!)

Take it away Mícheál.

——————————————————————

I don’t know why some people are bringing Celtic into the discussion again.

There is no one obsessed with Rangers because they trade at a higher price right now. But for the sake of an argument I will explain the difference in market capitalisation a wee bit. That’s easily explained by trading volume. There is no supply to meet the demand for Celtic plc shares therefore the price stays the same. Statistical outlier is the 25th January this year but that’s just people who want to cash in their investment.

The difference in the trading volume comes from mainly 2 reasons.

1. Rangers International is a new company. Hence it produces interest among the jobbers at the AIM

2. Though the structure seems similar with Celtic plc having 35.57 per cent and Rangers International 36.89 per cent of the shares widely spread, Dermot Desmond holds 36.43 per cent with other directors and single investors holding around 21 per cent. There are only 5 shareholders holding more than 3 per cent of the shares in Celtic. This as I said before constrains the possibility of trading in Celtic plc shares significantly.

Rangers International on the other hand has (as per prospectus) 12 shareholders holding more than 3 per cent of the shares but no one more than 9 per cent, 7 of them institutional investors. As you can see there are more people in for the money in Rangers International (RI) as in Celtic plc (Celtic).

Does the market capitalisation mean RI is the bigger company?

No.

Does it mean its value is higher?

No, as well.

Market capitalisation is a starting point for valuing a company but NOT its value. I can’t do a proper analysis right now, first of all because I lack time and motivation to do so and secondly there are no Cash flows and accounts etc. available for RI not even on Thomson Reuters or Bloomberg (of course because they do not exist right now) but my guess is that Celtic’s value exceeds that of RI by a third to one half and because of IFRS I do not count the value of the first teams of both clubs of both companies.

So what does the market capitalisation tells us: Celtic is undervalued. Nothing more nothing less.

Enough of Celtic now.

Coming to the other topics: It is not the fact that Rangers are trading at a loss right now that causes this “shock” as it was pointed out that many came to that conclusion after reading the accounts in the prospectus. (As I said then I say it again it is never a good sign for a company to have an operating loss).

It is the fact that Mr Green told the Rangers Media but apparently not the investors and after all the fuss he made about Rangers being only second to Man U and the millions of possible customers, etc. and he was hailed as the new Fergus McCann but now it looks like he is a new David Murray (with less money).

About the MSM. I think (but as an outsider I can’t say it for sure) it is not only Rangers related that the MSM degenerated to being the voice of the press office of the company. Everywhere in the world the quality of articles in newspapers is dropping. Quality newspapers like the NY Times, the Times, Le Monde, Die Zeit, etc. become tabloids. Journalists don’t know how to do research or they don’t get the time to do so. Right now you get the latest news in the internet and proper research is done by the people who are blogging about things they have an interest in. This is a sad trend.

I guess that’s all what I wanted to say. I will stay at the sideline and look how everything unfolds. I will still read the blog because I love Paul’s writing style but won’t comment anymore because more than often the comments here read more like Celtic/Rangers trash talk and this as well is a sad trend.

Posted by Mícheál

Advertisements

202 Comments

Filed under Charles Green, Guest Posts, Rangers

202 responses to “Why Rangers International’s Higher Market Cap Does Not Mean It Is Worth More Than Celtic by Mícheál

  1. Clarkeng

    Well Well.
    Mentioned in dispatches and approved of.
    This is indeed an honour.
    But………….I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree about the respective valuations of each club and how they are arrived at.
    Notwithstanding this small matter you may take it as read that where I do not post in response to a particular ” fact” ( ok the term maybe somewhat loose in some of the posts on here ) that is not to say that I do not have an opinion on it rather it is to say I do not have an argument with it.
    Essentially therefore I hear you say that I must in that case agree with it.
    That may or may not be true.
    The only way to find out is to question.
    It works for me.

    • ecojon

      @ Clarkeng

      Well if Mícheál has got it wrong and you have got it right why not give us your detailed argument on the position and then we can all make a judgement on where the truth might lie. However, having watched your tactics before I doubt if you will do that or are even capable of it.

      Having been impressed for a long time by the objective, impartial an knowledgeable postings of Mícheál, often on financial matters, then I doubt if his conclusion will be under any pressure from yourself. But I am always open to being surprised 🙂

      • Clarkeng

        @ecojon
        It does not matter what argument is put forward to you.
        You will just waffle and waffle and waffle.
        Just for once why dont you accept not everyone is like you.
        There are actually people on here from both sides who will state facts and accept facts when they are being stated.
        You would rather bluster away trying to deflect something you do not want to hear than accept the reality.
        Grow up man.

        • tykebhoy

          “Bluster away trying to deflect something” says someone who’s stock answer for the last 72+ hours has been “ah but Celtic’s market cap is smaller”, something that even Adam has rubshed as ammo in points scoring

        • ecojon

          @ waffler

          One thing I don’t do is waffle – I tell it how I see it and sometimes I get it wrong and usually I admit that when it happens, which is a rarity 🙂

          But what I do is state my reasons and leave them open to contradiction and discussion – you are clown incapable of doing more than talk p*sh because you have a closed mind space with no brain cells.

          I do many guest posts where I state my position and willingly leave myself open to contradiction – as far as I know you have never done one and are IMHO waste of space and a coward 🙂

          • Clarkeng

            Temper Temper.
            See what I mean – one wee fact and you’re bursting a blood vessel.
            Closed mind – I will accept that. I think you are a numpty.
            No brain cells – thats a matter of opinion and so far we know what yours is based on.
            Waste of space – I am not the one who posts without checking my facts.
            Coward – Get yer handbag Ahm huvvin you.
            Dont be such an arse. And I know you leave yourself open to contradiction.
            I have constantly contradicted you.
            Thats because you dont use facts.
            You waffle.

            • However your reluctance to state your case leads one to believe you haven’t got a case to produce. I would be interested to give your case due consideration before making my mind up about who is more accurate in their assessment

  2. Vampire Squid

    This is barkingly silly.

    Market capitalisation’s the way to measure a company’s value. You can choose any other metric you fancy to claim a company’s superior, but for checking the valuation investors place on a company you look at market cap. Claiming otherwise is ludicrous.

    Of course the market cap throws up some apparent anomalies. For example: Apple, the world’s most valuable company at the time of writing, makes $3bn less in net profit each year than ExxonMobil, the number two. Google, America’s third-biggest company, made $5bn less in net profit last year than Microsoft (number six). Hewlett-Packard remains a bigger company than FedEx, even though Fedex earned $2bn last year and Hewlett-Packard made a $12bn loss.

    What does all this prove? Nothing whatsoever, really. And what does Rangers having a bigger market cap than Celtic prove? Nothing whatsoever really. It just tells us that investors are valuing the former higher than the latter. That’s all. Does it matter to either business? Not even slightly.

    “There is no supply to meet the demand for Celtic plc shares therefore the price stays the same.” No. That’s ridiculous. The whole point of a market is that it finds a price where a buyer meets a seller. If there’s unfulfilled demand, the price rises until it’s fulfilled.

    You’re right to say that Celtic shares are illiquid, but they’re easier to buy than Rangers. Celtic tends to trade about 2,000 shares per day whereas Rangers averages about half that. Both are lumpy though, so small trades have a big effect on the price. You can see that in Celtic shares, which jumped from 38p in mid December to 66p in early January. As a result, the club’s valuation went from about £28m to nearly £50m inside three weeks.
    Nothing here proves that “Celtic is undervalued.” If you think that, you should probably read up on efficient-market hypothesis. And then, if you still think Celtic is undervalued, you should stop telling everyone about this mispricing and buy the stock yourself to become fabulously rich. (Don’t try to place the trade with a “jobber” though, as they haven’t existed since 1986.)

    • ecojon

      @Vampire Squid

      I think you should bear in mind the lock-in situation which currently applies at Rangers International which restricts the share volume available for trading and results in some quite dramatic price swings on a handful of shares.

      • Vampire Squid

        I did, and concluded that the “lock in situation” is basically irrelevant. Celtic, without any lock-ins, is an equally lumpy market.

        Want to see daily volume of Celtic versus Rangers since the latter floated? Here: http://i.imgur.com/ZVnCEIa.jpg From that you’ll see that, after the initial stagging* of Rangers’ IPO, both stocks have settled into trading nearly nothing on the average day. Arguments about differences in liquidity are therefore bogus.

        * http://www.investorwords.com/4679/stagging.html

        • ecojon

          @ Vampire Squid

          Well let’s wait and see whether the arguments remain bogus after the lock-in is lifted and we actually see some verifiable accounts from the new club.

        • Catching up late here ….. nobody seems to have mentioned ‘Free cash Flows’ ……. the ‘great one (as described by Cam) did …
          Just hours before the ‘Great Implosion’ !! ….. 19-11-12 @ 11:50pm …

          “the current value of a business is the present value of all future free cash flows” …..

          Last great lesson before exile ……..

    • @ vampiresquid
      you should also be aware that as of last week, not of “time of writing” apple shares plumited AGAIN and exon are no1 on both counts.

      • Vampire Squid

        Wrong. I checked market caps before writing it, which is why I said it. At the time of writing (ie. a couple of hours before today’s US open) Apple was $422.41bn and Exxon was $415.40bn.

        http://www.valuewalk.com/2013/01/apple-inc-aapl-exxon-are-inseparable-at-the-moment-can-it-last/

        Does anyone care about facts on here?

        • @VS
          apologies they had dropped severely and when I last checked yesterday they were still second. Obviously rallied before closing.

        • ecojon

          @ Vampire quid

          Does anyone care about facts on here? You obviously don’t 🙂

          • Clarkeng

            @Vampire Squid
            You crossed the line here quoting facts and figures.
            Be afraid, be very afraid you will be savaged.
            The so called intelligentsia on here dont need them – they have inner guidance.
            To you and me its called wind and piss.
            Dont worry its a bit like being bitten by a gumsy dug.

        • John C

          Vamp…,
          One minuscule detail you are ignoring when you reference historically good and bad market performers, historically.
          When is a good time to evaluate Tinkerbell FC’ market performance ?
          Ten minutes
          An hour
          A day
          A week
          A month
          Three months
          Six months
          Nine months
          A whole year
          18 months after audited accounts are presented
          Blah blah blah blah
          Your obfuscation diatribe is not even original, our shares are worth more than your shares, we’ve got bigger crowds then you,.
          Big deal, it’s no our fault you don’t measure up
          No everybody who is ashamed of rangers FC arrogance are governed from Rome.
          You need to get a grip.

        • willy wonka

          No. I’m afraid they don’t. ‘Waffling’ is the usual currency used.
          The ‘fact’ that five posters gave you a thumbs down says a helluva lot.

          Lol.

    • Den

      VampireSquid

      Never in my life thought I would address a Vampire Squid !

      Pleas explain, share what you know, your post comes across as a wee bit hectoring and condescending.

      Some of us are here to learn but dont have your education, we are trying as best we can though.

      To be honest I don’t think that in a low volume market the day to day market capitalisation truly reflects the value of the Company.

      The efficient market hypothesis describes and efficient market with perfect knowledge and rational buyers and sellers. The market in these Companies is relatively small and much of the reason to buy is to have a few shares and be a shareholder in your favourite club. Once you have a few that is enough.

      With big companies they can bumble along until somebody starts sniffing around then suddenly their price goes way up and then you may have something approaching the real value or way higher than it is really worth.

      I hope that Clarkeng keeps up his regular bulletin though. But as we all know the true status and worth of a Football Club is the number of empty seats.

      • Clarkeng

        @Den
        I have to graciuosly concede that one.
        CFC have beat us hands down on that with the 10000 free tickets.
        No seriously it has all been a bit of a wind up based on fact.
        The funniest thing is how many people jump in.
        At your request the daily bulletin will continue but I have to state at this point that I cannot be held reponsible for any apoplexy, financial losses or any other consequences which may or may not occur whether you follow my advice or not.

        • Den

          Clarkeng

          I have asked Cam the same thing,

          Do you feel that disrupting this or any blogg is a worthwhile pursuit?

          • Clarkeng

            @Den
            I do not set out with the deliberate intention of disrupting this blog.
            I will meet ridicule with the same but in general I try to post with some meaning and based on the facts which I have researched.
            There are some on here who do not.
            There are no hard and fast rules as far as I am aware on how or what we post but I share your frustration at some of the meaningless content posted.

            • @Clarkeng

              “I do not set out with the deliberate intention of disrupting this blog”

              On Paul’s post about Sivero v HMA, an interesting blog which started a debate re the pros & cons of trial by jury against trial by a judge Your first comment on the post:

              Clarkeng January 24, 2013 at 7:20 pm

              FFS lads innocent until proven guilty!!!
              Are we no gettin a wee bit kerried away.
              That sounds far too much like justice being done.
              Good effort to change the subject Paul but lets cut to the chase.
              Was the accused a bluenose or a tim?
              Did he pay any tax or NIC on his ill gotten gains?
              Or most importantly was the judge who allowed the appeal completely wrong because the evidence really showed he dun it??!!
              Pensionerbhoy where are you when I need you?
              Say something nice and bring some fun into this.

              You then go on to discuss football attendance figures with carson. In what way is that NOT disrupting the blog?

            • Den

              Rabthecab

              When I made the same point as you Clark’s response was that it was humour. I didn’t get it at the time or now.

              Clark there are no hard and fast rules. Clearly by my question I am of the opinion that your comments disrupt the blogg and the Sivero very HMA was a good example.

              I don’t come on here to tell people how to post and mostly support comment on good posts rather than the less constructive.

              Sometimes when Cam or Clark address a comment to me in a polite manner I will carry on the exchange in hopefully the same manner.

              I think I have got to understand their motives a little, haven’t got to like their methods any and still ignore them when they are in troll mode.

              Now, for myself I need to avoid the negative posts and complaining about them as I am boring myself never mind everyone else.

          • cam

            Den
            Clarkeng is a great addition to this place.He obviously has knowledge of stocks,shares and is a reasonable guy.
            A bit unfair to say he just disrupts this blog.
            Do you just want to sit in a room with like minded folk and ramble on with no alternative view?

            • Clarkeng

              @cam and Den
              Cam thanks for the compliment but I can live with their criticism “nobody likes us we dont care” eh?
              No seriously firstly my opinion of the cab driver is well stated I have seen nothing to change my view on that so I wont be taking that as either representative or meaningful.
              Secondly Den like my friend Pb I have probably a very weird sense of humour and I can assure you I thoroughly revel in irony and satire.
              If I have something to say then I say it and I will defend the right of anyone on here to do so.
              That does not mean to say I have to agree with the other point of view.
              Your opinion is yours and clearly you have formed it based on your understanding and interpretation of some of my posts.
              Whilst I confess to being dissapointed that you feel like that nevertheless it will not make me refrain from meeting the sublime with the ridiculous.
              My motives are simple free speech for all based on facts and without distortion or colouration.
              I dont want to change your mind I want you to accept that mine is equally as good in sorting out the wheat from the chaff.
              I do hope that you will continue to respond to the sensible posts but that is your choice or possibly the blogs loss.

            • Den

              I won’t dispute your assessment of him as my comments were aimed at behaviour rather than character.

              I didn’t say “just” take that word out and it is closer to what I said.

              Is that an invite over to your place for a convivial evening of chat with the Rangers supporting lads ?

              Sorry, i don’t think I would fit in – not yet anyway.

            • Den

              Clarkeng

              When you refer to “their criticisms” please be assured I speak only for myself, this is important as it saves everybody disassociating themselves from my comments.

              Be assured that I accept that your mind is as good as mine by any measure. If that is all you ask then your humility does you proud, or you must get some ambition.

              I hope I didn’t give the impression that i was going to flounce off in a huff, or alternatively sorry for raising everybody’s hopes.

              I have followed this blog for some time and will continue to do so as it is the best i know of, some whining gits like myself but overall a good bunch. Now I shall do as I said I would and look to contribute something positive and shut up in the mean time.

              Quote from your message

              “free speech for all based on facts and without distortion or colouration.”

              Not bad at all.

            • @Clarkeng

              “No seriously firstly my opinion of the cab driver is well stated I have seen nothing to change my view on that so I wont be taking that as either representative or meaningful.”

              Regardless of you opinion of me (and you wouldn’t believe the size of the fuck I don’t give about it,) are you denying that you posted the comments I quoted? Or that in the context of the post in question these comments were anything other than meaningless?

              Deny, deflect, accuse, insult, disrupt that’s the Clarkeng way.

    • James C

      @vampiresquid

      Share price is based on balance of buyers and sellers, not value of company. The selling price is just what someone is willing to pay, the rest is really just a academic model

      If everyone is rational with perfect information then sure what you say makes sense. But sadly, information is generally confused and fragmented (especially in Rangers it seems) and hands up who thinks the average fan is a rational economic agent?

      If your theory is right why do we get asset bubbles and why is there so little relationship between company performance and share price?

      So is a better conclusion not that their is more demand today for rangers shares than celtic? Is that so surprising given that one company has been marketing like crazy to prospective investors and the other not.

      Sorry but don’t buy the perfect market theory, a simple glance at history makes clear is it frankly crap.

      As you then manage to list so many exemptions yourself from the fortune 100 actually makes me wonder if the entire piece is actually irony, monty python and what the Romans did for us just floats to the front of my head!

    • @VampireSquid

      Barkingly silly? I totally agree. I’m sure I’ll be roundly shouted down for this, but Market Capitalisation is nothing more than the product of a simple arithmetical function: no. of shares outstanding multiplied by current share price.

      Working out the actual value of a company is a much more intensive process as I’m sure you are aware, hence the importance of due diligence.

    • VS

      This post is one of the reasons I read this Blog. Thank you. But you will be placed on a list and ignored if you are not careful.

  3. josephmcgrath112001809

    Well said Micheal.
    I share his concern about the content of the comments. I stared reading this blog because I was interested in how Scottish football supporters seemed to be losing their club to some dubious characters. I felt that there was more to this story than the media were revealing.
    I found insight on this blog. That seems to have faded recently and is trending towards a Celti vs Rangers ‘discussion’. I can’t see the point of that.
    If the Rangers supporters want to go with what they have (and what other option do they have?) good luck to them. The prophets of doom may be correct but it really makes no difference to the outcome. I don’t pay any attention to what Charles Green says, nor Ally, nor any other Rangers spokesperson. They are not my team, let them get on with it. (I don’t have a team actually, I don’t follow football but I am interested in fraud.)

  4. driverjohn

    From the previoys thread, someone stated that Craig Whyte stole from Rangers. This is the first direct accusation of criminality I’ve seen with respect to Mr Whyte. Robbing a bank is a wee bit harder than walking in, sticking your hand in the till, and walking out again. I’m no defender of Mr Whyte but I don’t recall hearing any specific reports of criminality from any credible source. Can anyone shed any light on this? Is it fact or wishful thinking?

    • arb urns

      did they find the proceeds from the sale of the arsenal shares, presume they must have. no fan of cw’s either but he had no chance after ally’s abyssmal efforts at getting into europe. bill millers hurried departure from PB status told the world all it needed to know. how many c £1m remuneration pagkages did he discover when he got limited access to the cookery books ?

      i would hazzard a fiver that cw has a few more skeletons to bring off the bench if it starts to get warm around his ghouls.

    • mick

      whytes criminality in it all was spending the tax and vat money and ni ,this could lead to dramas for him there is a live case pending via the taxman and strathclyde police weather it comes to court is another matter

      • Maggie

        @mick
        Good evening mick,glad to have you back.I won’t lie to you,
        I’ve been struggling to rein cam in without your help,you know
        what he’s like 🙂

        • mick

          hi maggie hope your month is ending well ave not been on much myself although a have been reading the blog and comments ,am well looking forward to the LNS enquiry a feel the law will take its course and justice will previal but am not holding my breath as we all know the handshake is rive in courts and at the sfa so we will just have to wait and see anything other than 3 0 defeat for each match played is not justice the whole world is watching them lets see if they do the right thing

          • Maggie

            @mick
            I’m also looking forward to LNS,and keeping an open mind
            mick,you never know how it will go,but we can but hope.
            I think the fun will really start when LNS hands down his
            verdict,as JohnBhoy says “I predict a riot”

            • mick

              hi maggie thanks for reponce all the riot talk is a myth they let there team die there not up for a tough battle there has beens from a bygone era lol

              dont believe the hype lol

      • jockybhoy

        Sorry mick but Whyte didn’t spend the tax and vat money, OldGers did. Don’t OldGers finance director and board have responsibility for paying tax to HMRC? Even as a private company?

    • ecojon

      @driverjohn

      I’ve always felt that CW was hired to do a job and fell in love with the club and went ‘native’.

      Time will tell whether chuckles has gone native or still remains the AIM expert extraordinaire.

      • Maggie

        @ecojon
        Craigie boy went native!!!!!
        Wow eco! You snuck up on me with that one.
        Mmmm not sure I see it.
        Next thing you’ll be telling me Chico holds the Yorkshire
        Schools’ “sprinting in his sannies” record which stands to
        this day 🙂

        • JohnBhoy

          I think Craigie was the cleverer of the two: he had a clear, strategic plan which almost worked to perfection; whereas Charlie is trying to react to events as they happen and his exit will be messy. The fly in the ointment is Ally.

          • Maggie

            @JohnBhoy
            They’re just like capo regimes Clemenza and Tessio…..
            “it’s the smart move,Tessio was always smarter” 🙂
            I know we used this one before JB,but when in doubt
            always reference The Godfather.

        • ecojon

          @Maggie

          The day he has to leave Glagow he might exceed his old record 🙂

          I wonder if the reason why chuckles holds the school sprinting record to this day is because he bought the school history when it was demolished?

  5. arb urns

    if rangers having a higher market cap than celtic induces erotic thoughts for clarkeng fine let him stroke on.

    i support neither but i do know trfc r in div 4 of scottish football , in liquidation and currently running at a loss.

    celtic on the other hand are top of the premier league, in the last 16 of the CL are likely to turn in a profit, will hoover up millions from this CL run, and can probably attract a further £ 40m in player sales if so desired in the next two tfr windows.

    as i say if market cap is your thing fine but when saturday comes !!!!

    • JohnBhoy

      Agreed. As someone who bought shares in Celtic – when they called, I came – I couldn’t give two monkeys and a panda about market price/share. The value of my football club lies beyond the reach of quantitative measurement.

    • Clarkeng

      @ecojon and arb urns
      The point is this :- I made a statement of fact which was how I had formed my opinion.
      You two have waffled and conjugated and reacted.
      For days you both have rejected my statement of fact based on “your opinions” which in fact were not based on fact and were incorrect.
      Not for the first time.
      I have made this point many times – I will not post unless I can verify excepting the ridicule posts obviously where others verify for me.
      If its not what you want to hear thats ok – I can relate to that – but as I have said many times “if you dont know dont post”.
      And what does it matter about the market capitalisation?
      Well to the investors it means a lot.
      To joe punter in the street a lot less – the shares he has are not an investment they are a statement of his loyalty to whichever club.
      The fact you all reacted to the statement tells me it matters to you lot as well as you have tried to reinvent how business works to show it is wrong.
      Now does anyone want the daily update or what?

      • arb urns

        here’s a fact for u c. Mark Capitalisation aint gonna nod in the winner for you guys at Tannadice at the weekend. How did your Club fare on the last Stock Market you were on C, please feel free to post that Fact.

        • Clarkeng

          @arb urns
          You are so right.
          I fear the worst.
          Never mind I have still got 2 bottles of Montepulciano to numb the pain.
          The last stock market wasnae the problem it was the w……….s Murray and Whyte who caused all the problems.

          • arb urns

            gd stuff c. keep yer eye on that green guy tho with his pet octopus.

            am surp u r a Bishop of Rome man in the wine cellar c, thought u might be a blue hun man.

            enjoy yer night on here.

            • Clarkeng

              @arb urns
              I am actually ambi dextrous and if truth be told a bit of a tart when it comes to the old vino de plonko.
              There are no nations I would discriminate against.
              Just in from work and think I might have to fortify myself for the onslaught.
              Ach well God is great. Bring it on!

      • ecojon

        @ waffler

        Who says “if you dont know dont post” – why are you still posting sh*te then?

  6. Carl31

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/u6qvb6ltlqx11nn/5%20Way%20Agreement%20Draft%20Original.pdf

    is this genuine?

    If so, I presume this was not the agreed agreement. Hence the existence at all of the SPLIC.

    • @ Carl31

      Looks like the one released last year, you would find it in the blog pages somewhere if I recall your friend Eco blogging on it but it did appear here before.

      • ecojon

        @ michaelk1888

        It isn’t new and the problem is that I think, from memory, I traced five drafts – I have never seen the actual agreement published so who knows what chuckles agreed and now seems intent on renaging on.

  7. widowtwankie

    As I remember fondly saying to the late great mr twankie, “My Dick (Whittington) is bigger than yours.”
    To which he would reply, “It’s what you do with it that counts.”

  8. Adam

    Market Cap is not the true value of the company. The true value of a company is what someone is willing to pay for it.

    If both Rangers and Celtic were put up for sale tomorrow, there is absolutely no doubt which would be sold for more…….and they dont play in blue.

    • TheBlackKnight TBK

      only due to the fact the ‘other’ cannot be sold (12month new status) and has the specter of gratuitous alienation hanging over it. Otherwise I agree 😉

    • Clarkeng

      @Adam
      Market capitalisation is the current value of the shares issued and paid up multiplied by the number of shares issued.
      The true worth of the company needs to be considered after taking account of all transactions reported in the balance sheet but by and large in a PLC the market capitalisation is the basis for evaluating.
      You are of course correct to suggest it is what someone is willing to pay and that my friend is the whole point.
      They already have paid and the current value is now above what they paid.
      You may well be correct that if both clubs came to the market then the situation would change but that is your opinion and the current info from the LSE AIM does not back that up.
      I am not devaluing your opinion.
      I am offering mine.
      And the current info from the LSE AIM seems to favour mine.

      • Adam

        In the months prior to Rangers being bought by Craig Whyte, the Market Cap was something like £33m or thereabouts.

        Can you please tell me any relevance the market cap played in the then “current value” or the sale of the Club ?

        • Clarkeng

          @Adam
          The figure you quote was the value of the total number of shares issued multiplied by the price. The price is set at the LSE AIM and is based on a number of things generally. But in the main it is supported by the balance sheet produced from audited accounts.
          There are other important factors which need to be taken account of and they are usually expressed as ratios.
          One of these is the ratio of current assets against currrent liabilities which from memory is called the liquidity or acid test ratio.
          In the case of Rangers the situation was that potential liabilities from the BTC, the wee TC, and a large bank debt guaranteed by the parent group indicated that the company was insolvent or had the potential to become insolvent.
          DM had no more cash to put in and looked to offload to reduce his exposure.
          The sale price of a pound was simply PR for DM.
          The problem was not that the business and its assets was not worth £33m but that the ratio of liquidity taking all into account was very poor and Whyte did not have the cash even to run the business in the short term
          The accounting term for including all potential debt is called prudence if I remember correctly but basically it means if you know of a potential debt whether or not it has crystallised under the rules you must allow for in your accounts.
          The alternative is unthinkable for PLC in that it would result in auditors qualifying or even refusing to sign off the accounts.

          • John C

            Clarkeng,
            WOW you do know a bit
            So when Murray and Whyte did not have enough money to put in when the bank decided they were insolvent, how did that all work out again ?
            That’s right, the bank kept it afloat till it got its dough, then allowed market forces resume the insolvency dance.

      • ecojon

        @ waffler

        Yea well I suppose if you count shares that cost !p being counted as being worth 85p a few weeks later and accounts which look good on property value and negative equity – yea well pigs fly as well but they tend to crash to earth 🙂

        • Clarkeng

          If you knew what you were talking about I might have given you an argument.
          But you dont so I wont.
          Are you stalking me?
          That could be grounds for reporting you to a higher authority.

  9. The “size” of either Market Cap, average attendences etc are all inmaterial. I’ve commented on the futility of stating them and the low level in many of the comments made here now. Without a shadow of doubt many of the “old” posters on here from all teams no longer participate actively as the point being made or expressed is missed or denigrated by many of the newer posters, often with vile pointless comments. More importantly many of the comments are made are away off the topic by miles.

    Late last night there was a debate raging that was inteligent and specific and unearthed several interesting points which have in turn led to subsequent understandings of “both sides” of the debate and personal positions.

    IMO this is what its about. The current guest post from my namesake and subsequent counter from Vampiresquid are made from the informed and educated individuals which benefits us all by presenting their own informed position and allowing us to make a decision for ourselves as to our own take on the situation.

    This is why it is so important that contributors continue to provide that insight relevant to professional knowledge and personal experience. Leave the opinion and speculation out where possible and if its includes, then as most people do make it clear that its your opinion.

    I agree with michael that the fact CFC get dragged into this every time is annoying and frustrating as it seems that even when people are clearly not CFC supporters the bluenoses will always, in the main, belittle the comment by countering with the “obsessed CFC” mantra. Personalities will fly to defend and therefore useful debate is lost.

    I know this is a specific tactic employed by certain individuals to disrupt the site, however I would appeal to the sensible and mature among us NOT to be drawn into the frequent mudslinging, banter is one thing and enjoyable to read and but in the words from “CHEWIN THE FAT” you’re taking it too far……

    • Clarkeng

      @Michaelk1888
      Gonnae no dae that.
      You are sounding far too sensible.
      Any way you get a ” well said, good point”……….. and a TU from me.

    • Den

      MichaelK1888

      well said. I sometimes get frustrated at the trash talked on here by a few people that is making it hard for people who don’t want to get into personal slanging matches or read dozens of pointless posts.

      With posts like your own and Micheals plus a number of others it is still worth trawling through the dross, but getting harder.

  10. JimBhoy

    @Clarkeng I confess to knowing little about the stock market, i Do have my shares in my team… When you state “To joe punter in the street a lot less – the shares he has are not an investment they are a statement of his loyalty to whichever club”, I cannot disagree, however Joe Punter is a minority shareholder at rangers….The majority are looking to make serious money in a company that has just announced it is broke a month after taking in millions in share selling… Does that sound OK to you?

    • Clarkeng

      @JimBhoy
      I know I am repeating myself and others on here will no doubt shout this down but at both clubs the fans are minority shareholders and although they have some protection under stock exchange rules and under the Companies Act nonetheless if the executive of a business which also happens to be the majority shareholder whether actual or by conglomerate has the intention of selling on for a profit there is nothing much that can be done.
      But……. and it is a big but……..for them to do so they will need to sell the shares on to someone who is wiling to pay the market price as they are now listed.
      That in itself wont hurt the club.
      The club only gets the money for the share once and they have already got it.
      The next transaction will a transfer between parties and the only way that will affect the club is by changing the majority shareholders and possibly along with that the executive.

      • mick

        (at both clubs the fans are minority )shareholders if your on about sevco thats wrong as sevconians own a holding company run by spivs (crooks in suits)not the club

        • Clarkeng

          I think you might find it is the same at CFC

        • Welcome mick, missed you.

          • mick

            am back fresh and up for the title stripping lol oh and 14 cups lol

            • JohnBhoy

              I note that Channel 4’s Alex Thomson in his blog today, entitled “The unraveling of Rangers – the key questions”, had commented that “Rangers… they no longer exist”. However, that truism has since been replaced by the politically correct “The old Rangers company no longer exists”.

              Even zombies have feelings I suppose.

            • mick

              hi johnbhoy great point all this walking on egg shells to please sevco has got to stop there the biggest joke in sport and the aggression proves it people are feed up with them and lol at them now they are a nonentity and a joke the tribute is doomed no matter how many turn up greens a spiv running at a loss and the oldco fans that tubed over have have dug there heads in the sand even more than last time

    • Clarkeng

      @JimBhoy
      I was still at work earlier so could not develop my answer but I dont think he said they were broke.
      He said they would make a loss this year.
      This is really quite normal in pheonix or new start companies and is not something to be overly concerned about.
      I have also said this before ( and before you say it there is a direct comparison between the people concerned.) as far as making serious money is concerned look no further than your own Fergus.
      The value of the sale his shareholding was over £52m.
      Not bad for an overdraft guarantee at the outset and an investment reported to be £9.4m.
      The difference between the two is time and hindsight.
      The similarities are as obvious as the nose on my face.
      Fighting with the football authorities, incomprehensible statements and a an almost endless battle with the media.
      If you dont see it ok – I do.

      • Carl31

        Clarkeng,
        thats ripe for a guest post by you, IMO.

        Apart from the obvious non sequitur, I’d say there’s a big difference between where the clubs stand and stood.

        • Clarkeng

          @Carl 31
          That might just be an idea although it wont be this week as work is about to go daft and I am still working on a couple of responses for arb urns.
          I actually have quite a bit of knowledge on how Fergus worked his magic as I have a few friends who were and remain CFC diehards and were involved with Dempsey and Co.
          My accountant at the time was Charles Barnett of PKF who Fergus employed and my friend Peter McLean joined as PR Manager.
          Fergus’s wife also done some legal work for us.
          There are a number of differences between the respective positions of where the clubs stand and stood I grant you that, however the main issue was that essentially both clubs were insolvent and could not meet their obligations and somebody came in with what was to be a complete change of the structure and culture of both clubs.
          No matter what I post it will be wrong to “CFC minded” people on here but it might be fun.
          I cannot accept responsibilty though for peoples blood pressure or sensitivities.
          Let me have a think and perhaps a wee chat with Paul and I will get back to you.

          • Carl31

            CE,
            I look forward to it.

            I would suggest just briefly that there is a stark difference between the clubs…
            Rangers arrived at their insolvency after having been run for the preceding decades by a guy who is widely accepted as being one of the top Scottish businessmen of our time, notwithstanding that the arse has fell out of the international steel market and his portfilio is substantially of lower value than once it was. Whatever is argued elsewhere, IMO that led to the insolvency event.
            Celtic were brought to the brink of insolvency (notably they avoided insolvency) after having been run during the preceding decades by a bunch of guys who are now recognised as being just about the opposite of top Scottish businessmen. Once they were off the scene, paying Celtic’s debts to avoid insolvency ended up relatively straightforward.

          • arb urns

            thanks clarkeng look forward to it

    • ecojon

      @JimBhoy

      Sounds great to me and might hasten their urge to leave Scotland and let the rest of us all live in peace and get on with trying to save Scottish football.

  11. mick

    great read mickybhoy any1 thinking other wise is tripping out there tree there a new club in div3 with valueless dud players ,was the share issue its self not bordering on criminality due to giving shares away and hidding the original backers all this dicing with the law is what killed the original team and am sure newco will be fated with same karma is heading greens way soon

    it title stripping time to what a couple of weeks we in for lol

    • cam

      Mick, out of respect to the original post i’m keeping my trap closed,,why don’t you do the same.There are some folk with knowledge and an interest in stock markets,shares and club valuations.Lets just leave them alone and you can spout your criminal,spiv,crook rubbish in another post.

    • ecojon

      @ mick

      Wouldn’t say they were valueless – now that Tesco has lost the four-legged meat in the sandwich a few catrhorses could come in handy.

      • mick

        Hi ecojon nice to here from you a see the usual suspects are still saying whites black and blacks whyte lol it’s LNS week after all this time there might just be justice at the end of the tunnel

  12. Clarkeng

    Well that lasted a whole half hour eh?
    Back to the trenches the nutters have escaped again.

  13. Adam

    Lowering the tone of a decent debate as usual. 😦

  14. mick

    as we know greens well at it can he liquidise the the international company and keep the dosh for ticketus whyte close leaseing how would this effect sevco the club

  15. mick

    @ADAM AND CLERKENG yous have no right to compare with celtic as we as a club dont like to be mentioned in the same sentance as yous ,yous are run by spivs clinging to life bordering on legal illegal its not fair us being tarred along side yous no matter how trivial sevco is a dark cloud in sport celtic is a uk rainbow bright and liked the world over

  16. mick

    keeping within the topic a wonder if Newgate Threadneedle were on a few shares for turning a blind eye to the criminality conserning the share issue

    • cam

      Come on! why are you allowed to continue to insinuate criminal offences have been committed.
      If i insinuated criminality on the part of Dermott Desmond or Denis O Brien the post would be pulled and no doubt in Mr O Briens case especially, his legal advisors would be in touch.
      Change the record and let the big boys have their moment of peace.

  17. mick

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/money/tax/article3587849.ece

    spivs cam making a mockery of tax laws and loop holes

    • Adam

      A film investment scheme 🙂

      And not even a hint of irony. 🙂

    • Den

      Mick,

      Welcome back.

      Can I just say, we have heard it all before.

      All you are doing is winding up the Rangers fans in the same way they do to everybody else but you are also ruining one of the few reasonable discussions in a long time.

  18. mick

    Charles Green claimed in february he knew he would own the club; D&ps and whyte will be well in trouble when lord hodge findings pop out who knows whats on the cards there

    • cam

      Mick,you add nothing to the debate and are a fool of a man,don’t feed the trolls,whataboutery becomes you,karma chameleons don’t eat pies,lords are tubes,drinking title stripper is bad.

      • mick

        cam if you think a add nothing to the debate then dont read my comments simple and as for your fool of a man dident take you long to name call (cam slaviates at the 10 meal deal at tesco )whataboutya

      • Maggie

        @cam
        Not big and not clever.

        • ecojon

          @Maggie

          The idiot is a disgrace and does more to disrupt debate on here under his guise of ‘humour’ than a dozen bile spewers and some people ought to REALLY read what he is actually saying wrapped-up in doggerel.

          The clown really is bigot of the lowest order – mark my words!

          However he is no match for mick 🙂

          • Maggie

            @ecojon
            mick rocks!!! I love his posts.
            I also love most of cam’s posts eco,and not sure I agree with
            your assessment of him as a bigot.
            He obviously irks you the way that mick irks*
            him,but I’d rather have cam than Adam “Mr I take myself seriously,
            and make serious posts and all this badinage is SO beneath me”
            instigator of the Borefest.

            * I deliberated long and hard over which word to use there eco,
            as I could anticipate your rebuttal to each one I thought of.
            I settled on *irks” as it’s late and,the thesaurus in my brain has
            packed up……. Do your worst 🙂

            • Cregganduff

              Maggie
              Description of Cam – courtesy of Neil Sedaks

              The King of Clowns – over to you Neil
              There are tears (there are tears) you’ll never see (never see)
              No you’ll never see my tears and pity me (pity me)
              Though I’m hurt, still I’m proud
              Always laughing as I walk among the crowd
              Step aside, here I come, the king of clowns
              As I hide the lonely teardrops that come down
              I make believe with a smile
              But the king of clowns is crying all the while

              Aw heck it here’s the full thing

            • Cregganduff

              Neil Sedaka – as I guess most of you children are too young to remember him. Good night to Cam Maggie one and all, an old man needs his sleep.

            • JohnBhoy

              I’ll defend Cam. He gets my hackles raised at times and there are occasions when his posts are very questionable. That said, he has a brain, can be very funny, gives as good as he gets and, when push comes to shove, does recognise when he’s crossed the line. He’s not a bigot and his presence is welcomed. He’s just defending his team and is having fun in the process.

              My estimation of ecojon increases every week – clever doesn’t cover it; and mick has got the lot. Sorry Cam but ‘mouthie troll’ is just genius.

            • ecojon

              @Maggie

              I always aim to do my best 🙂

          • cam

            Aaaw Eco lets have a man hug and be pals?
            I’m a pest,i annoy you and you think i’m up to some devious plot.Thats all ok,but i’m not a bigot,possibly an idiot.
            Just ignore me and keep adding your noble thoughts to the madness sir.

      • mick

        cam

        January 29, 2013 at 12:21 pm

        Savaged by a dead sheep. Long winded balderdash from the saddest creature in bloggsville.

        Mick,you add nothing to the debate and are a fool of a man

        cam your a mouthie troll

  19. Adeste Fideles

    quick question as i don’t really know much about all this share price stuff…

    how does the share price of these companies benefit the clubs?

    • tykebhoy

      At present it doesn’t, although it may in some cases reflect speculators/investors confidence in the company. In this case supply and demand almost certainly mean Newco’s share price is artificially inflated rather than a display of confidence in the market post floatation.

      Any future share float will also benefit the club more the higher the share price, but doesn’t please shareholders as they have to splash out to avoid their shareholding being diluted or suffer reduced equity

    • Den

      Good question, stand by for a poor answer.

      On a day to day basis it doesn’t. Shares are a share of ownership of the Company and when they are traded it is the shares going one way and money the other way between individuals, the club or company gets no part of it.

      Where a share price is important is when they want to raise money via share issue. If the share price is high it will take less shares to raise a certain amount.

      For most Companies but not the clubs in question movement in the share price can indicate someone buying a holding with view to takeover and then the fun begins, or shareholders bailing out which can again attract interest.

    • ecojon

      @ Adeste Fideles

      I am afraid that the share price and associated market capitalisation figure quite probably doesn’t assist the club in any meaningful way. Of course when Ally gets his £20m warchest then that might assist the club as long as Ally doesn’t pick the new players.

  20. mick

    Adeste Fideles it generates income for all sorts of reasons sevco needed it to pay over heads that in its self is illegal as you have to have sound accounts to float am laymen myself but via the blogs you pick up the facts and ins and outs of it its a spiv share float pals in london act to fleece the bears lol

  21. Adam

    Film Investment schemes. 🙂

    Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant 🙂

  22. Clarkeng

    Anyway here is the daily share update.
    The biggest club in Scotland remains stable on 86p.
    The second biggest club could well be looking at a downwards slide as over 30000 shares have been traded in the last 2 days and the price has slipped again to 55p.
    Not that it really matters or anyone cares.
    It is only one small fact.

    • mick

      The biggest club in Scotland remains stable on 86p. yous are div3 wait to green and the spivs sell there shares you will see the price drop not that it matters or any1 cares as its only a tribute to the most tainted soccer club in the world

    • ecojon

      @ waffler

      Yea well people and organisations on life support are usually decribed as ‘stable’ as far as condition reports state.

    • Is this debate not just a more professional and complex version of the world record crowds one that is a feature whenever The Rangers attract a large crowd?

      By that I mean that on any given day The Rangers crowd can be say 43,000 and the Celtic crowd 40,000 making the statement that The Rangers had a bigger crowd than Celtic a fact. Whereas the reality behind that fact is The Rangers crowd brought in a half to thirds the value in cash terms as the Celtic crowd.

      Much ado about nothing if you ask me as reality marches on to the beat of its own drum.

  23. Adam

    thumbing your own posts. 🙂

  24. wottpi

    Stuff the shares it is all about the cash.

    Mr Green has to fund the running of a club that is second only to Manchester United!
    That means paying not only for the squad but all the backroom people as well. McCoist is reportedly on over a million a year. Mr Green awarded himself and other directors handsome salaries, so there is at least another million.
    All the other employees Tuped over and should still be on their previous contracts which John Pritchett, who was attached to Bill Millers bid, said were far too generous. Playeys salaries will have been cut but I find it hard to believe they are the £6m quoted.

    Income is down. Season ticket sales at around £8m and then add on another £3m for the pay as you go’s. There are no sign of any sponsorship or commercial deals on the horizon. My guess is that the ticket money well allocated for salarlies and the like.

    Running Murray Park and the game day expenses for world breaking crowds every second week are considerable.

    Even taking account of a huge drop in players salaries (£24m) the last audited accounts where there was no Euro football/cash (2009) had Rangers expenditure in the region of £33m.

    If Mr Green has managed to cut those running cost by, lets say, a third to £22m then he still needs another £11m to make up the difference between the ticket income and the expenditure.

    Ah ha you say buit waht about the money from the share issue.

    Well he not only needs to fund the gap but in he also wants to give Ally £10m for signing and keep £9m for tarting up Ibrox. Oh and what about the money needed for the hotels, cancer centres and the world wide acadamies? They don’t come cheap – do they?

    He ain’t got banking and overdraft facilites to get extra cash from, Euro cash and even deent Scottish prize money and TV cash is a long way off. The we will have the institutional investors wanting to see some return soon, as might those who were involved in stumping up the original buying of the assetts.

    I’m afraid it is all very tight. Mr Green and his pals may manage to pull it off and good luck to them if they do. However I’m not holding my breath. Something has to give and my guess is that Mr Green, despite all the bluster, will end up playing very tight with the cash as he did at the end of the last transfer window and then we will see how the fans like him then!!

    Don’t be surprised if Rangers, despite large numbers of their loyal fans parting with their hard earned cash, aren’t looking down the toilet pan again sometime soon.

    • ecojon

      @wottpi

      Only the totally deluded could fail to recognise the vision our Saviour has for Ibrox – of course it isn’t a Tesco superstore 🙂

  25. Now that LNS is upon us it is gratifying to note that the Rangers support stand to a person fully behind LNS and his fellow panel members in their undertakings.

    I never doubted it, fair play and respect for the rules has always been regarded as
    something higher than merely winning within the Rangers family.

    You would never find Rangers supporters claiming that everyone cheated and that their cheating, if it had a flaw, was that it was simply the best cheating.

    No Rangers fan that I know of would call into question the integrity of the panel members.

    “Those guys are just doing their job to the highest standard” is the call that rings out from the stands at Ibrox, usually followed by rapturous applause.

    Rangers fans have been issuing threats, and we should take them seriously.
    If their club is found to have cheated they have threatened to depart and never trouble Scottish football again.

    All I can say is well done on such a principled stand, and good luck.

  26. dan

    Honestly, all this stuff about stock’s and shares is way overblown in my opinion. It seems to me that there are two reasons for investing in either the wonderful Glasgow Celtic, or Sevco. The first is, as in my own case, emotional. I put in a couple of grand, but couldn’t tell you (without looking at the share certificate) how many shares my money bought me, what they were worth at the time, or what they are worth now. I really don’t care. The other reason, obviously is to make a bob or two by selling the shares on, and I would have to say that Sevco are, currently, probably a better bet because the only way the club can go is up. It’s hardly rocket surgery. But a word of caution to anyone looking at any share price, and, because of trading activity think the stock was worth a punt, try reading about the antics of old Joe Kennedy and his cronies in the ‘stock pools’ whereby, to the outsider, the clamour to buy a particular stock by the ‘insiders’ suggested they should get in quick if they wanted to make a buck. Unfortunately all that had been happening was a series of paper transactions between the ‘insiders’ to artificially drive up the price and fleece the unwary.No money actually changed hands and ‘the buying’ was bogus. Now I’m sure the ‘experts’ will tell me that ‘stock pools’ are passé–if not illegal—–but I’m betting there is a modern equivalent. I’m not suggesting this is what’s happening to Sevco’s shares. what I’m suggesting is that it’s much more widespread. I mean, come on, are we really saying that the stock market per se isn’t just a wee bit bent? Look at the geezers involved—be they men of the green or the blue hue! Would you buy a used car from any of them? Apart from wee Fergus that is—is he still alive by the way?

  27. JimBhoy

    @Clarkeng I cannot believe you make comparisons with Chico and the bunnet… The wee guy came in at the 11th hour paid off those who were taking the club to their death, put his own money up front, said he would build us a new stadium, put out an IPO and rightly walked with his cut of the investment. Tens of thousands of fans now own part of Celtic and it has been stable ever since because the bunnet had a long term plan.

    Chico has come in made 1000 statements in a few months where only a handful have been factual based truth, promised the bears milk and honey to entice them and other investors to put some money into the club, promising all sorts of great things with the money when it effectively turns out it is there to try and keep the company alive (to the next big pay day) and to pay those he borrowed against… The anonymous few.

    rangers will have 2 years at least where they will try to buy success and that will cost. Chico said in Nov on talksport the season book money was sat in the bank and they didn’t need the share money for running costs… There is nothing long term about what he says so much so that only a handful of bears actually invested, that says it all about trust. You cannot deny this.

    As for fergus fighting with the football authorities you don’t mean Jim Farry do ya… What happened there again?

    The man was a business man and a lifelong celtic man (note the latter). He did what he said he would, asked the celtic fans to back his dream, much ridiculed by the media (who used to speculate and ask hard qns back then) and his legacy is there to be seen in bricks and mortar and more importantly operational stability of the business and all footballing matters.

    The bunnet left celtic park with his head held high, I fear chico will leave Ibrox with a police escort.

    • Adam

      The fans really showed their appreciation of the excellent work of Fergus in 1998. Its a pity that it took hindsight to realise just how much of a blessing The Bunnet was for Celtic.

      • ecojon

        @Adam

        Is that from a Rangers perspective you speak?

        There were plenty of good Celtic men & women who backed Fergus against the old regime and its young pretender. So don’t know what kind of hindight you are on about unless it is a Rangers thing to do with the terrible disasters you have had for owners in very recent times 🙂

      • Maggie

        @Fitzcarraldo aka Adam
        For the record, my Bhoys were vocal supporters of
        The Bunnet ( that’s Mr Mc Cann to you ) throughout his
        tenure at Celtic,as was every other Celtic fan I know.
        Certainly a small minority ( I believe you have this same
        small minority,only yours vandalise whole cities ) were less than
        pleased that Mr McCann refused to take the path less travelled,
        that your former CEO wore a groove in,throwing his tenners after
        fivers as he rampaged and bullied his way to ignominy and
        disgrace.
        Oh they’ve changed their tune now,and the rest of us,who
        saw Mr Mc Cann’s worth from the outset frequently rub it in,
        but in the spirit of family ribbing,because that’s the Celtic Way.

        • Clarkeng

          @Maggie
          It sounds distinctly unhealthy – family ribbing.
          Dont think I would consider rubbing anything in with my family.
          My Auntie Betty wouldnae like that.

    • Clarkeng

      @Jim Bhoy
      See Jim I vaguely remember all the same things being said of the bunnet.
      You really cant forecast what is going to happen.
      You can say what you would like to happen or even what you think might happen but as for anything else is a tad premature.
      As I said you have the benefit of hindsight with the bunnet.
      Time will tell.
      If you are right the Magners are on me.
      If I am right a wee Pinot Noir will go down very nicely.

      • ecojon

        @waffler

        What were ‘all the same things being said of the bunnet’?

        And who else were they being said about – presumably a Rangers Man?

      • JohnBhoy

        @Clerkeng

        The money raised from going public can be used to maximise financial returns for the owners or it can go towards the club, or some combination. Do you know how Charlie intends spending the £22m raised from your club’s IPO? If Charlie is to be believed, he did promise to set aside £10m for Ally (was that from the IPO monies or from some future, unspecified, source?). That leaves £12m less IPO expenses. Further, if the club is trading at a loss, I assume that some of the IPO greenbacks will be needed to plug that gap. What’s left and where’s it going? Oh, forgot to include investor returns/commitments. Ignore them for the moment.

        • Clarkeng

          @John Bhoy
          Sorry it has taken me so long to get back on this but works has become a bit hectic and requires my a wee bit of extra attention so less time for fun and frolics on here.
          I think everyone is getting a wee bit confused on powers the that Green himself now exercises and perhaps they dont appreciate the rules under which the club or company whichever you want to call it must operate.
          In the first instance the funds now belong to the club and the use of these is subject to financial governance.
          The memorandum and articles of the company will be based on and comply with the requirements of the Companies Act 2006.
          In this there are clear statements on how decisions are decided upon and who is entitled to take them and there also methods for dissent to be expressed.
          In the running of a PLC the Directors are officers of the Company and will under normal everyday circumstances take corporate responsibility for the financial running of it.
          Decisons or resolutions will normally be made by shareholders and these will be voted on at either emergency general meetings or at the annual general meeting.
          Subjects for voting maybe prepared by the board of directors or by the shareholders collectively or individually.
          These need to be recorded and the stack exchange needs to be advised timeously of any such resolutions to allow investors to protect their own interests.
          Minority interests or shareholdings are protected by law in as much as the majority cannot prejudice their rights to vote.
          Under normal circumstances a simple majority will be enough to carry a resolution but there will be some which require more than this.
          So to your first statement on the use of the funds I have to say it is now beyond the power of Green alone to decide how they are used and any such decision will be made on recommendation by the board of directors for approval by the shareholders.
          The structure of the shareholding is now so fragmented that any resolution to be carried at Ibrox would need to be by a conglomerate of the major shareholders with by my reckoning no less than 6 or 7 of them assenting or acting by proxy.
          There are also rules which the directors need to take account of on the awarding of dividends and any such awards also need to be approved by the share holders.
          The money from the IPO is now effectively the share capital ( on the balance sheet it will be under the section Shareholders Funds ) of the business and in this case is providing along with any loans or possibly overdafts to the company the working capital needed to run the business.
          You are correct to say that this will eroded by losses identified on the Profit and Loss account and when posted this will affect the share value.
          I only know what has been published as you do and yes I think there are questions which need to be asked to clarify what is actually happening especially in respect of the likes of the transfer fund.
          The fact that losses are being incurred at this stage is neither suprising nor unusual but if they are doing their jobs correctly they will have put in place a business plan which takes account of this.
          As for the prospectus identifying potential losses again I’m afraid there is a great deal of misunderstanding on here.
          Save to say the prospectus was prepared by experts in accordance with the LSE rules and conveyed sufficient information for informed choice.
          As for investor commitments that falls into the enigma of the penny shares and I am still putting together the information on this however these again have been the subject of a great deal of misinformed speculation on here.
          As soon as my work commitments have eased I will get back to you and Arb urns on this.

    • ecojon

      Well chico has form for having to leave a previous football club car park, where he was CEO, under a police escort if I remember correctly 🙂

    • Maggie

      @JimBhoy
      I HATE it when members of the Govan Tesco oops,honest
      mistake. I of course mean the Govan Sevco refer to Fergus as
      The Bunnet. That is a term of endearment reserved for the
      Celtic Family only…..how very dare they.

  28. Mick have u given thumbs up to your posts ? Ha ha ha ! Rumbled ! I do it as well ! P.s. how are you tonight Jan ? Thinking about me in uniform ! Xxx

  29. Den

    Micheal

    just to say I appreciated you Guest Post. Well structured and reasoned.

    I hope you continue to contribute as your posts are always worth reading.

    I appreciate you have better things to do than cast pearls before trolls.

  30. JohnBhoy

    If Charlie really wants to make lots of money from The Rangers maybe he should look at the business activities of FC Copenhagen. In 1999 they changed their company name from Football Club Copenhagen A/S to Parken Sport & Entertainment A/S. They then went about acquiring whole companies and significant stakes in others, including Rockshow, a concert promotion company, e-billeted A/S, a ticketing company, Euro Media A/S, a production company, and Fitnessdk, a fitness business. They also own a professional handball team. They are so successful that their football ‘business’ represents only a small fraction of their turnover. And they have a successful football team.

    Charlie introducing Bruce Springsteen. What a hoot….”Good evening everyone. You all know me. Charles Green met Bruce half an hour ago and it’s heart warming to know how much he and his people care about this club. He had plenty of questions that he wanted answers to and that is the way it should be. I can assure him that Charles Green will work tirelessly to…”

    • Maggie

      @JohnBhoy
      ….I can assure him that Charles Green will work tirelessly
      to ….make him a world superstar,.The lad has great potential,
      and if there’s one thing that Charles Green knows it’s potential.

      I said,just they other day, to that bloke what runs the Dallas
      Cowboys,I’ve got a cracking lad for you.I know you yanks,like
      us at Rangers,are true blue patriots and aren’t ashamed to sing
      your national anthem at the drop of every hat,well this is the lad
      for your singalonga the Star Spangled Banner,trust me you won’t
      be disappointed……What ? He’s already done a gig singing at
      thon,Suoerbowl World Cup thingy.Righto then,I’ll just have to
      give him a trial at The Tesco Ibrox Arena singing The Billy Boys.
      What? You think he’s an RC so might object to singing about
      wading in the blood of his co-religionists. Flippin’ ‘eck Mc Leish
      Saaaaally,Saaaaly you there,you big soft ( Yorkshire euphemism
      for fatso) lad ? Get Marty Pellow on the phone.
      Bruce Springsteen has left the building.

  31. mick

    well its nice to be back cam and adam clerkeng seem well delight at it oh and gob sxxt arson ,if you dont like my comments skip past them but yous have no right to dictate whos to post and whos not, the debate was going no were as soon as some1 timmy appeared it was put them down ave bypassed commenting but been reading the blog and some comments the amount of sxxt from the above mentioned is laughable debate yous dont know the meaning of the word and as for you den if you dont like my comments skip past them what did you bring to the screen tonight F ALL a couple of questions and a comment about me a will be on lots more div3 gob sxxts LNS time then it will be official div3 cheating gob sxxts sevco fangetas then now and forever

    @michael a was on with good intentions tonight put as you can see from above texts the hurting curren buns dont like to debate with every1 they just want commentors they can preach to

  32. mick

    goodnight every1 same time same place tomorrow night ,not long now till the LNS findings

  33. ecojon

    Oh they are not only hurting but lashing out 🙂

    ‘The Celtic puppeteers carry on manipulating the dumb & afflicted, when the dust settles ,Rangers will be stronger , wiser & richer for their journey. We have been robbed by whyte, raped by the sfa, derobed and horsewhipped by the spl , stoned by every club in the spl, hounded and berated by the bigoted & bias press. Hmrc wanted blood , not cash and guess what, got neither! To every decent fan of clubs in Scotland and to my friends & Rangers fans. Never forget and forgive.’

    I keep wondering what they will say about chuckles in the fullness of time? Still I see the Murray rehab appears to have worked 🙂

    And by the way, rest assured, the decent fans in Scotland will: ‘Never forget and forgive’.

  34. Ron

    1. i think a company’s net value is a better take on it’s financial health than Market capitalisation. i.e. What would be left if a company ceased trading today, sold ALL it’s assets and paid off ALL it’s debts.

    2. Remember when talking about the share price of small companies that the quoted price is the mid-price and the spread between buying and selling prices can be a high percentage. So if market shows a share price of a pound you may only get 70 or 80 pence when selling. and If buying you may have to pay £1.20 or more. That’s how the jobber/middleman makes his profit.

    • Clarkeng

      @Ron
      Dont know if you still get jobbers since the AIM was revamped but I see your point re the spread.
      If you have a look online the spread is very narrow for both clubs – about 1-2p either way.
      On your first point if the market is doing its job properly when that situation happens provided the assets have realised their book value and the debts are all paid off the sum or balance that is left should be the Market Capitalisation.
      The share price is the balance reported in the balance sheet divided by the number of shares.
      The figure will of course be less than if a going concern because intangible assets will not be realised.

      • Clarkeng

        I should also have said that the share price is moderated by demand which if high increases the MC or if low will most likely decrease it.
        In new start companies it is basically the actual value paid moderated by demand until such time as a set of accounts is produced.
        But your point is correct in that the net worth of a company which effectively ceases trading which is the only time that your scenario would crystallise will greatly reduced compared to its value as a going concern.

        • Mike

          I’ve just been catching up with some of the comments – is the number of comments seriously about how to value a plc (not, I’m thinking, an ordinary ltd company)?

          If it is, then I didn’t realise how important the valuation of their respective plc’s was to Rangers and Celtic supporters! As for me, and I suspect most non Old Firm supporters, who cares?!!

          If the comments really have been about the correct valuation of a company then well done commenters on raising the general level of debate on this blog, I’m sure you’ve all been very erudite and entertaining.

          Clarkeng, to get back to your very very original point, I think that the current valuation of a plc can surely only be judged by it’s current share value, but it’s real value can only be judged when it is bought and sold in bulk enough to change the ownership structure. In other words it’s worth what someone is willing to pay for it’s shares in enough volume that the valuation has some depth to it.

          As to which is worth more, Rangers or Celtic, it’s an utterly pointless discussion, but have fun having it if it keeps you all out of trouble! 🙂

          • Clarkeng

            @Mike
            I agree with all of your points.
            And it has been fun.
            As to the real value it will be worth what someone is prepared to pay and that pre supposes that someone wants to buy.
            In a situation like that you would expect the share price to be firm and probably rising.
            The actual worth of the company is measured by the balance sheet and the share value is really a statement of the value of the shareholders funds divided by the number of shares.
            That is and always has been the case.
            That is not to say there are not other influences which can come into play and I have mentioned some of them previously but under normal circumstances the sale and purchase of shares and the price thereof would be in line with the market’s evaluation based on share value.
            My point started out that Rangers had a bigger market capitalisation or value than Celtic.
            I also stated Rangers shares were stable and Celtic’s were falling from a 5 year high.
            Nothing more nothing less.
            The facts are irrefutable unless you are one of the intelligencia on here who like to only see a single point of view.
            It is clearly very important to them.
            There have also been a few points made on here about penny shares issued to members of the buy out team.
            I will post tomorrow on the reality of that situation.
            Fraid work comes first and I am up to my backside working on bids.

  35. portpower

    My shares are better than your shares?
    I smell shoit. I have had Celtic shares since 1995(thanks uncle Johnny). sevco have had AIM shares since mid-December 2012. Let`s just see if this debate is ongoing 15-20 years down the track?
    If I was a sevco fan I`d give Snoop Doggs` people a ring for advice.

  36. lord mac

    where the celtic board in on this as stated with this draft
    from dropbox i find this quite shocking actuallay
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/u6qvb6ltlqx11nn/5%20Way%20Agreement%20Draft%20Original.pdf

  37. JimBhoy

    The bunnet was not greatly liked by the media simply because he wasn’t the flamboyant Minty/Chico type. He did not see the need to drip feed the men who got off on the same from minty for years and now Chico. He had a job to do and was judged on results and not the crazy statements you hear from Ibrox then and now, where there is totally no foundation , fact or future thinking.
    The media hated that the bunnet held his cards close to his chest, they found it difficult getting a glossy story from him as they expected someone to take on minty and were rubbing their hands at the prospect of a head to head. The wee fella knew every penny was a prisoner to meet his end game, I recall a story of him taken out for dinner and asking for a glass of tap water much to the hilarity of his dinner guests and written about in the papers the next day. Whilst the minted one would drink the best claret.

    By all accounts he wasn’t the easiest man to work with but as straight as a die.He is as different to Chico as you could get.

    Imo if a true trusted rangers man came in and said he wanted to take over at ibrox and had agreement with Chico to do so and had plan A to get the business stable with a 5 year plan BUT there would have to be £5m raised to pay off chico, I reckon the rangers fans would put their hands in their pockets for that to happen. That says it all. It will never happen though because chico knows his initial analysis of the rangers situation and what he could make was vastly underestimated and he now has processes in play that will get him a much larger return and is in a situation to feed his ego without much effort. He will spin a success story regardless because it is only on sites like these that truly raise some questions by the obsessed Bhoys (of course). If the rangers had their own bunnet instead of chico there would be a lot less clatering of the keyboards for sure. Chico rocks..!!!

  38. mick

    goodmorning every1 expuiltion from the sfa and tesco is what am dreaming about sometimes dreams become reality over the course of time with green at the controls they are bound to dip at some point and crash

    compareing green with fergus is like compareing eddie the eagle with chris hoy

    NOT LONG NOW 54 AND COUNTING BACK WARDS LNS TIME

    • cam

      Good morning mick and i hope you have a good day on site and come home safe and Ready to do battle once more.
      I like reading your madness and we just have to both keep our insanity toned down when the more serious chaps want a good waffle.

  39. JimBhoy

    @Lord Mac I found it shocking like most people when this was first circulated because it smacks of the footballing authorities breaking and bending their own rules to try and keep rangers in the SPL or drop them into SFL1 worse case scenario, backed up by stories of doom. This is why I find it funny when the heads of Scottish football are generally abused by the rangers faithful. Fan power voted against these possible two scenarios and that’s why rangers are in the position they are in BUT also remember that most rangers fans backed up by Sally suggested they wanted to start in the bottom league anyways.. Win Win..

    The possible sanctions mentioned are premature and naive as these sanctions will be decided outwith any SPL/SFA rule except on appeal to SFA. As speculated by many before me, the sanction of losing silverware was one I think Chico has spun as a definite NO but he doesn’t really care about that when there are bigger penalties out there, some much more severe and financial.

    As far as Celtic being involved, of course they were, Lawell was pulling all the strings, him and the holy father in Rome and Celtic lawyers, just ask Leggo. Lawell also controls the Daily Rhebel and is in constant daily conference calls with, Phil MacG, Tom English, Mark Daly and Graham Spiers. Lawell supports terrorist organisations and was the man who persuaded Belfast city council to take down a certain Fleg. Shocking eh!! 🙂

    For more on Lawell/Celtic’s (and others’) involvement in causing harm to rangers read Leggo and agent Orange daily.

    • cam

      Well, the financial chaps put together a good debate,Michael,Michael1888,Clarkeng,the very fine Carl31,Den,Tykebhoy,James C and Rabthecab all gave a Question Time, virtuoso performance on numbers thingies.
      Mucho respect and although i don’t understand much regards stocks and shares(and never want to), when people talk reasonably about something they have a passion for it is interesting.
      It has been said that i can hold my own when it comes to discussing Fermat’s Last Theorem using the Horizontal Iwasawa approach.
      Feel free to contact me if you think that this could assist in deciding to stay with your current energy supplier.
      I now make the solemn promise to glue my typing finger(yes,just the one) to another part of my anatomy to allow more refined cultural debate to take place.

      • arb urns

        whichever orifice u chose cam enjoy it, thanks for the memories…… etc etc
        once a random always a random

        • cam

          Dinnae fret Rabbie, that promise comes with a caveat.When the debate is hijacked by other loon balls and the pub brawl is in full swing i shall walk amongst les combattants winding things up to a crescendo.

  40. arb urns

    one area where chico is consistent executively speaking is that his clubs head for the basement leagues of whichever FA he operates under.

    • cam

      4-1 for Dundee Utd v the Gers,and DU to go into administration early next season unless CFC buy Russell and Mackay Steven to replace their high wage earners.

  41. Ron

    @clarkeng.

    Thanks for the reply. I take all you points on board and don’t disagree with them. I was surprised the spread is so small. I haven’t looked at stock market in 2 years since I decided to just take my pension and get out of that ‘casino’ ! The spreads used to disgust me – I never got what I expected for a share and always ended up paying more when I bought. Though the spreads were only a penny or two for large cap companies.

    The one thing I didn’t mention regarding share price is that after a base value is calculated it can then go up or down from this depending on market perceptions and these are obviously influenced by future cash flow projections and statements from many different parties. p.s. I know you already know that but just said it for completeness. Cheers. Ron.

    • Clarkeng

      @Ron
      You are absolutely spot on and I know from experience that share values can actually be talked down by skilful operators.
      A piece of advice never ever trust a market maker.
      The spread as you call it has been identified as the bid price and the offer price for some time.
      I am not quite sure how they arrive at either but safe to say when us mere punters are selling or buying we always come out in the worst case.

  42. Adam

    January 30, 2013 at 8:43 am

    its a Celtic tradition to be suspicious of and in some cases even dislike whoever is in charge. One that whilst annoying at times has served the club well.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s