My Reaction to Comments on the Rangers/Title Stripping Prediction

I am very grateful to all of my readers and to my commenters for the debate on my last post. It is good to see everyone engaging in the civilised debate which had been one of the best features of this little nook of the Internet.

So I thought that it might be useful to comment, in my turn, on some of the observations posted to the piece.

What I should say is that the predictions I have made, (or indeed guesses!), are of what I think will happen, rather than what I think should happen. That is a discussion for another time, and probably once the matter is over and the detailed evidence is produced publicly.

To recap, I think the following:-

  • Lord Nimmo Smith’s Independent SPL Commission will find Rangers (the club) guilty of breaking the rules regarding registrations and payments;
  • RIFC PLC will challenge this in the courts, but fail;
  • Lord Nimmo Smith’s Commission will not “strip titles” from Rangers.
  • The Commission will impose a financial penalty upon “the club”.
  • RIFC PLC will refuse to pay.
  • A legal impasse will arise and the footballing authorities will find it very hard to decide how to proceed.

Some of the comments below were answered better than I will be able to do by others in the threads, but I have out them here to collate the relevant points.

————————————–

Cam said – i think that once LNS has checked over the audited accounts of RFC and noted that all EBT’s were declared to the SPL/SFA, then in conjunction with Darrell Kings marvellous legal summary that a private loan between two parties is hee haw to do with LNS or anyone else then apologies and damages payable to Chico should follow suit.

Sorry Cam. The “EBTs were declared in the accounts” argument is a red herring. Whilst the accounts of Rangers FC PLC stated a global figure paid out by the company under the EBT scheme, this was not divided down into individual payments, nor indeed was the split between players and non-players detailed. One might as well say that, as the annual accounts include a figure for wages, this would be full disclosure of the sums paid to each INDIVIDUAL player.

The defence of “it was in the accounts” will not work, although it has been advanced almost as a matter of dogma by some of the Rangers fanbase.

And as for Darrell King’s point (who is Darrell King, by the way) that private loans are nothing to do with anyone – well these were not private loans in the way normal folk would describe them. At the FTT there was no attempt by Rangers/MIH to say that the EBT payments were anything other than a device to save tax. The case hinged on the judges’ decisions about whether that had been done in the rules or outside them.

Finally, and I am sure this is Cam donning his jester’s hat to provoke reaction in other readers, but Mr Green getting damages should the Commission clear Rangers! Brilliant Cam – one of your best yet!

Jester's Hat

Maggie said – While hoping that Paul’s scenario does not come to pass, I wonder how the HMRC appeal (if granted ) would affect the findings of LNS ?

This is an interesting one. Whilst the issues for the SPL Commission are not the same as those for the FTT, there is clearly a substantial overlap in terms of evidence. Therefore one might think that a delay in the Commission until the tax appeal is finally complete would be prudent. However that will not happen.

The main reason for this is a practical one.

The appeal to the Upper Tribunal could itself be appealed to the Inner House of the Court of Session, and from there to the UK Supreme Court. If all those steps are followed, it could be 2017 before the case concludes! I suspect that delaying the Commission till then would not be in the interests of justice nor of a “prompt” resolution.

This of course means that, should the Upper Tribunal decide that the EBT scheme was unlawful as applied by Rangers, they might already have benefited by having the case determined before such a verdict is handed down.

I do not foresee the SPL/SFA leaving the matter in abeyance for the years needed.

If the allegations against the former Rangers administration were criminal in nature, then, and only then, it would be appropriate to delay the disciplinary processes, for fear of prejudicing a prosecution. That is not the case here. Therefore I see no likelihood of delay.

Equally, even if, in 2014 or 2016 or whenever, the tax decision goes against Rangers/MIH, I do not see the football authorities looking to re-open the case.

The justification for this is simply that the questions the tax case raises are distinct from those raised by the Commission.

Equally, once this is concluded, I suspect that the football authorities have not the slightest wish to re-visit this saga once the matter concludes. Therefore, even if it was felt that a revised decision on the tax case brought something new to the SFA/SPL case, there is no way in which the case would be re-opened.

Closed

Duplesis said – This Commission is an SPL one conducted under the SPL rules though, so unless the SFA delegated powers to the SPL in connection with this matter (and I haven’t heard it reported that they did), then it would only be penalties within the competence of the SPL which could be imposed.

SPL Rule G6.1.18 states that, as one of the possible penalties that an SPL Commission can impose for rule breaches, the Commission may:-

make such other direction, sanction or disposal, not expressly provided for in these Rules, as it shall think appropriate;

As the case relates to breach of SPL and SFA Rules, then it is my understanding that the Commission could choose to impose any “direction, sanction or disposal … it shall think appropriate”.

The SFA Judicial Panel erred, in the view of the Court of Session, in opposing a penalty which was ultra vires. This was because the Code dealing with the offence of Rangers specified a range of specific penalties. This therefore meant that the Panel could not use the powers to impose “additional” or “alternative” penalties.

Here it is entirely different. There is a range of 19 “sanctions” one of which is as quoted above.

The case was to be dealt with by the SFA until it was determined that if dealt with by the SPL, then the SFA could preside in an appellate role.

So it is my view that the Commission could expel Rangers from football, although I am certain that they will not do so.

Kicked out

Michaelk1888 – There are murmurings currently that the RFF are likely to challenge legally any imposed penalties through the courts in the stead of the club and this is actually a good take as it pushes the “fans” together and back into the spotlight, which is never going to be far away this year.

Michael is spot on. Fresh from the website of the Rangers Fans Fighting Fund on 17th January 2012 comes the news that:-

RANGERS Fans Fighting Fund announce tonight that they will be underwriting costs incurred in the battle to protect the club’s 54 titles. The Fund are fully committed to defending Rangers’ history, which includes all honors.

Rangers fans have already paid in more than half a million pounds to the Fund and after tonight’s meeting a spokesman said:

‘It is absolutely crucial that Rangers’ titles remain untouched. But because there has been a long-running campaign in the media and within certain other clubs to punish Rangers we must do everything within our power to protect the club’s proud history. Every fair-minded person knows where these titles belong and we will not sit back and allow anyone to have them removed.’

This is an interesting one. We know that RIFC PLC has no intention of appearing at what Mr Green has stated is a “kangaroo court”. Rangers FC PLC (in liquidation) is not appearing at the hearing either.

Kangaroo

Rangers Football Club has no legal personality – it cannot appear in court nor can it enter into a contract for its legal representation.

Is the position of the RFFF that it will pay RIFC PLC’s lawyers, to save Mr Green’s company from having to spend money on it?

Is it the position of the RFFF that it is going to fund lawyers of its own to represent the club? What standing does the RFFF have to do so? If a legally qualified Rangers fan turns up at the site of the hearing, would he or she be allowed to appear and represent Rangers, the club, as a fan? By the same analysis, if the fans get together to fund lawyers, what standing do they have?

Hopefully the fans’ organisations including the RFFF can agree who should represent the club! After all, if the RST, the RFFF, the Union Bears, the Vanguard Bears, the FF Brigade, and the Charles Green Loyal do not agree, what happens if they all send along lawyers to represent “the club”?

Remember the Life of Brian? “People’s Front of Judaea!” “F#@& Off!” “Judaean People’s Front!” “Splitters” etc

JPF

John C – Now from what I think I’ve understood from this saga, is that Scotland does not have a rule to protect footballing debt as a priority creditor, so why would they want to claim the continuity when HMRC are still looking for the club to pay outstanding Tax bills ?

They are saying the tax bills died with the old club but the footballing debt did not ? Can’t see HMRC accepting that, can you ? Or are we just meant to forget relevant details ?

HMRC is not looking for RIFC PLC or newco (the former Sevco Scotland Ltd) to pay oldco’s taxes. I am sure that they would accept any payment that newco wanted to make for oldco’s tax debt, but that is not going to happen.

The footballing debt passed to newco as this was made a condition of SFA membership. The SFA rules, permitting it to specify conditions for membership, would have allowed the football authorities to make payment of oldco’s tax liabilities a condition of membership for newco. However that would be seen, one assumes, as a circumvention of the rules of insolvency. Football was looking after its own.

Newco simply bought oldco’s assets. Therefore the tax debt did not pass over.

The issue of the tax liabilities is irrelevant to questions of “history”.

Hector

Abrahamtoast – While I am usually onside with Paul’s posts, and bow to his greater knowledge of the law, I do think this article is flawed in two distinct ways.

1) I think there are far too many assumptions here for the final outcome to be reasonably argued. While Paul may be well-versed in the law, he is not so well-versed in the workings of the football authorities. These authorities are not so consistent and predictable that such a detailed forecast could be confidently argued.

2) Add to this the fact that the FTT(T) may well be going to appeal, and the whole process may be delayed by some considerable time (which, quite frankly, would suit most parties). Depending on the final verdict and the finer details after any appeal, the scenario may well be entirely different.

To me the article is an exercise in kite-flying. It might be something people currently want to read about, but at the moment there really isn’t much to say, so what was the point?

Of course this was kite-flying!

As I said, having made a brief prediction at New Year, and having had a few folk politely ask why I reached those conclusions, I thought I would provide a more detailed analysis. As I said, it is what I think will happen, rather than what should happen.

Quite correctly Abraham points out that it is speculation. Without being in the hearing room it is not possible to give a fully informed opinion, but I think that, having read the FTT judgement and the flood of information regarding the tax affairs of Rangers, I can offer a reasoned opinion (even if it turns out to be wrong!)

I imagine myself delivering the opinion standing on the edge of the pitch, wrapped up in my sheepskin coat, giving my prediction to David Coleman or Frank Bough sitting in the studio, whilst I freeze in the snow at the Outside Broadcast. Today’s prediction becomes, at some point, figurative chip wrappings.

Chip

Alistair McLeod – For me, this summarises, yet again, that the treatment of Rangers has been (and will be) based on who they are, and the clout they have in Scotland, as opposed to what they have done.

I think Alistair is right on the money here. Much as, in theory, one would hope that ultimately the football authorities would be blind as to the accused, and treat Rangers in the same way as, say, Spartans would be treated, reality is different.

Maybe that is not right … but that is what is going to happen.

There is little doubt that the football authorities would love the Rangers issues to go away. The SFA/SPL find themselves as the thinly spread filling in the sandwich formed on one side by Rangers, and its fans and on the other by those who are looking for the rules to be applied, with neither fear nor favour.

Ironically the time since the proposed restructuring has seen various commenters who support Rangers looking at previous instances of reconstruction, and demanding fairness for their team, and to be treated as other teams who won their division before restructuring were. The effect of this would allow Rangers to jump from the fourth tier to the second tier.

Such a demand for equal treatment however does not recognise the equivalent penalties for fielding ineligible players.

Despite the perception that playing an ineligible player automatically means that the offending team “loses” the match 3-0, that is not in the rules applicable to the SPL.

It is the responsibility of the Club to ensure that all its players are registered properly. Failure to do so is a breach of the Rules. The penalty for breach of the rules is one of the 19 separate items listed in SPL Rule G6.1.

One of the 19 penalties/sanctions is as follows:-

“the Commission may award an Official Match (with such deemed score as it thinks appropriate) to a Club”.

Note. It is only one of the possible sanctions, and even then the Rule does not specify the score to be awarded. Maybe elsewhere there are competitions where the rules specify that the outcome is a 3-0 win for the innocent team. The SPL Rules do not say this.

Scales

Alexander – Come on Paul, now give us a lengthy article on why they SHOULD be Punished Severely, or have you been warned again?

No Alexander. No “warnings”.

I simply think that this is how the case will be decided, for better or worth.

Posted by Paul McConville

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575 Comments

Filed under Charles Green, Football Governance, Rangers, SFA, SPL

575 responses to “My Reaction to Comments on the Rangers/Title Stripping Prediction

  1. cam

    JohnBhoy killed time in the Buick, flicking through the Derry Globe,circling the horses with Celtic in their name.He didn’t gamble much,he didn’t feel in control of the odds.
    He had scanned the street in the last 10 minutes,viewing the people scurrying along,lost in their petty thoughts.JohnBhoy studied the early evening sky,the clear light blue of the afternoon was fading to a darker hue,more befitting his mood.Under this killing sky, JohnBhoy looked first at his watch and then up at the first floor apartment on the upper westside brownstone.The light went out and JohnBhoy,without realising,sat a little straighter in his seat.
    No matter how many times he saw her,JohnBhoy’s pulse and breathing belied his outwardly cool demeanour.
    As Maggie walked the short distance to the car,time, for JohnBhoy,seemed to slow,giving him a few extra moments to savour his muse.When the door opened her scent filled the cars interior,he had bought her this scent from the Celtic superstore at the corner of 88th and Walfrid Avenue in the lower eastside.The heady musk of Henrik,pour femme and Maggie’s presence nearly distracted JohnBhoy from his nights work,but Maggie opened her purse to give JohnBhoy a card with an address and he saw that she was packing heat.His mind focused,he drove to the location in the Bronx to pick up Mick the Hammer.A syndicate enforcer for Big Paulis family,Mick was feared for his unique technique of persuasion.The toughest wiseguys like Adam the Accountant and G.I Carson had succumbed to the terror of Micks questioning.
    Mick told JohnBhoy he had a lead on their quarry and they headed to the seedy area near Tims Square.Mick had a hunch that by hitting the strip joints and trans gender bars they would track the bam down and give him the whupping he deserved.
    Cam,having been given the heads up by D.Edgar Leggo, head of the H.B.I
    was in position,and as the three hoods in hoops drove past the maintenance crew working on the street sign he flipped them the bird.Cam dressed head to toe in orange hi vis gear, taunted the terrible trio as they passed and JohnBhoy reached for his Thompson, but Maggie,the cool head as always,cooled his jets and whispered in his ear ” JB,we have bigger fish to fry”
    JohnBhoy relented and drove them to Enzo’s,a syndicate joint and they ordered pizza.Mick asked for anchovies and calamari as he was obsessed with all things Octopus.
    To be continued,,,,,,

    • JohnBhoy

      @Cam

      Now that’s much better! (Broken) Thumbs Up.

      Here’s mick’s version:

      meep meep jb coming 2getu bam mags packing heat lol fat pieman with a hat on can watch how sad is green creaming me for the kill bill ffs voodoo economics applied by moonbeams Murray will not stop it karma is the only word for it what about ya cam? ive added screenshots of the crooks in suits for ease and heres the link massive find green octupus ticketus the zues connection with sevco your gonna get it cam 54 holes in you and counting backwards theres to cams no more lol

  2. cam

    Commander Leggo has the inside track again,,,,in a spectacular MSM trouncing exclusive the bold yin has forecasted that the bracelets might be clicking on some of the chaps who like to play fast and loose with financial regulations.
    I know its petty and vindictive of me, but please,please let it be the staring eyed train driver who did a trolley dash through the Ibrox trophy room.

    • arb urns

      oh sir cam of the ogilvie clan……. ‘ole pontoon eyes has a claim in agin sir polo….. sale of goods act my man……. a quid was way too much to pay for that rusty old bucket u sold me sir p…..why when my men of honour daul and pave got behind the scenes I had to stump up another £134m…. nae chance ya chancer.

      I hav a wee sneeky lord no surrender has a sweet tooth and canny resist ‘the fudge’. yer belisha micht b aboot tae cum in C.A.M.

      PS was in the red white and blue store yestreen ye ken. the one where burgers r to buy or not to buy that is the equestrian ?

      melon ballers were buy one get one free a couldnae resist so ive got a spare if yer interested ?

      • cam

        I sincerely hope you’re correct and that Cap’n Nimmo leaves our 20,000 leagues alone.
        I wonder if the Craigie creature has been dabbling in any vulture capitalism lately.Surely his name is too deep in the thick brown stuff for him to be able to front any business venture?
        I may need another melon baller as i plan to go into overdrive very soon.

    • Maggie

      @cam & JohnBhoy
      Guys I say this with affection,you need to get out more 🙂
      Though you’re both incredibly funny!

  3. Paul

    Although I have not been posting I have been reading your site. Some time ago someone wrote that people on here are obsessed by a 4th tier team and their doings. I didn’t agree then, but I do now. Nearly all of the posts this year have been about some minor detail of RFC’s plight. Not a new minor detail but more obsession about LNS, title stripping etc. Reading more and more about less and less is just boring.

    Also, and I have not made a survey of this, my guess is that 90% of comments are from Celtic obsessives and any semblance of balance went a long time ago. It seems to me that Carson and Cam are the only posters left who do not live in Shettleston.

    It’s a pity, because this site was one of the few places one could have a reasonably balanced discussion about NEW aspects of RFC’s and wider legal problems. But I shall continue reading if only to keep up my count of the number of times Ecojon uses the term IMHO an oxymoron if ever I read one. By the way, did anyone post on the comparison made by a member of the church hierarchy between catholics and the plight of blacks in 60’s Mississippi. Just asking!

    • Ernie

      Fair enough, but I’m not carson or cam and I don’t come from Shettleston. I suspect that there are few more like me who probably should post more but can’t be bothered with the name calling and whataboutery, it’s irrelevant to the topic. That doesn’t make this blog any less of a good read and an alternative with, as opposed to instead of, any other source.

    • cam

      Hi Vi,,there’s an interesting legal debate started in the next room and i’m not gonna intervene and ruin the more cerebral posters fun by desecrating the blog post with my ramblings.
      Here’s a link to an interesting read by a chap wrongly accused of being the RTC blogger,when my attendants permit i shall peruse some of this chaps musings in more depth.
      http://martinkelly.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/some-thoughts-on-recently-having-had-to.html

    • Maggie

      @Violet Carson,
      Think about coming back Vi,put your disagreements with eco
      aside and re join the fold.As you know I have disagreements with
      cam and carson,but I’d hate them to stop posting,and I’d miss the
      “banter” with them and so would eco,JohnBhoy,mick et al.if they’re
      being honest.
      The joy of friendly rivalry,football or otherwise,is the getting one
      over on your rival and a bit of pointscoring.Since Paul gave them
      all a good talking to before Christmas,they’ve been on their best
      behaviour,so you’ve nothing to fear,but fear itself,* that and
      maybe eco IMHO 🙂

      Apologies to FDR

      • ecojon

        @Maggie

        I’m afraid you have misread me as I don’t do banter with bigots and I find nothing amusing about their comments or agenda.

        • Maggie

          @ecojon
          Eco,I think you’re wrong here.I’ve never found Violet to be a
          bigot.Opinionated,yes of course,like all of us,but I certainly have
          no recollection of anything that could be construed as bigoted.
          I may very well have missed whatever you’re referring to eco
          when I was on holiday or was too busy to read everything properly,
          as I know that you wouldn’t use that term lightly.
          One of the defining characteristics of this site is that it attracts
          a higher standard of debate and humour,and when in disagreement
          with others,that humour will eventually defuse some heated debate.
          I’m sensing a Mexican Stand Off situation between you and Vi.
          I think the problem is you’re both too alike, ( Maggie ducks for
          cover ) and neither of you will back down.
          Hopefully that will change.

          • Maggie

            There is no Stand Off between Ecojon and me. IMHO I find him simplistic and patronising, which is no mean feat. It’s just that I cannot be bothered commenting on the same rehashed points (500 different ways of looking at the point of RFC’s 54 League titles for example). I don’t care and no one but an obsessive really does – it will be what it will be and so will LNS and HMRC. But I would like him to instance one example of bigotry on my part – I hope Paul is reading this.

            • Maggie

              @Violet
              …… No one but an obsessive really does…..
              I don’t think we’re being obsessive Vi,merely seeking Justice.
              That’s all I’M interested in,simple justice for years of fraud and
              dishonesty.The efforts of the Celtic minded on here is to
              ensure that no stone remains unturned in the pursuit of
              this justice,because in our experience,corners have often
              been cut and rules bent to favour Rangers,the events of
              the summer at the SFA bear this out.You can’t really blame
              us for examining the minutiae of the debacle.

              Celtic supporters are certainly not alone in seeking justice for
              the cheating and rule breaking perpetrated by Rangers.
              Wasn’t it fan power that insisted that the SFA apply the rules
              to Rangers as they would to any other team in liquidation.

              Like you I’m sick of rehashing the same old stuff.In my case
              it’s the Rangers PR onslaught of “we’ve been punished enough,
              Charles Green’s rabble rousing of the infamous small minority,
              we WON the FTTT,so LNS tribunal should be abandoned,the
              threats to other clubs,their infamous lists of so called Rangers’
              haters who will be dealt with when they’re back on top, etc etc etc.”
              As no one in the MSM challenges the Rangers’ PR crap,then it
              falls to interested parties here and other places to do so.

              You really should come back and re enter the debate and argue
              your corner.Ignore what you find tiresome and comment when
              you feel you’d like to add something.
              As you may know I have in the past ignored posters,Adam for
              one,purely on the basis of his I’ll manners,and others,now gone,
              on the basis that they posted provocative rubbish and insults,but
              still enjoyed the site.

            • willy wonka

              @ Violet.
              Don’t worry about it. Ecojon has me down as a hate-filled bigot as well. Something to do with just being a Rangers fan I think.

            • cam

              IMHO the guy to follow on this site is willy wonka,,,he has recently made a habit of ripping Eco a new one.
              We are all willy wonka!

          • ecojon

            @Maggie

            I made no reference to Violet in terms of bigotry but was responding specifically to cam and carson because you actually linked them to myself in your post by stating that if I was being honest then I would admit to missing their ‘banter’.

            I have no problem with you saying that as you obviously believed it to be true but I’m afraid I was left with no option but to correct the impression formed not just by yourself but by anyone else who might have read your post. Sadly some might also have taken silence from me as an indicator that I too accepted your statement.

            My decision over who I debate and chat with on here has been tightened-up since the start of the year particularly because of the orchestrated attacks on Paul’s blog by fanatics who are out to destroy this fairly unique little oasis.

            I have no interest in what Violet states or what her opinion is of me or my posts but I can assure you there is no Mexican stand-off but just my complete disinterest in anything she has to say. I try to make no reference to her and it’s a pity she is unable to reciprocate but instead feels the need to continually refer to myself.

            However, if it keeps her happy and fulfills some need then hopefully it serves a useful purpose.

    • Maggie

      @Violet
      For the record Vi,I wasn’t aware that the statement comparing
      the experiences of Catholics in Scotland to the plight of blacks in
      60s Mississippi was up for discussion until I read cam’s link.
      Don’t think cam instigated a discussion.

      Also for the record Vi,I thought it was a piece of complete and
      utter lunacy,and was mortifyingly embarrassed for the Catholic
      Church spokesman and the hierarchy that sanctioned it.
      While there is no denying the historic prejudice suffered by several
      generations of Catholic immigrants,to compare it to the
      racial torment suffered by generations of blacks in the U.S.
      is quite clearly ill advised.Just to be clear Vi,every single
      Catholic I know,from every social strata thinks exactly the same.

      • cam

        Are there two Maggie’s? or is the strangely formatted post due to posting it via a smartphone?

        • Maggie

          @cam
          No cam,still just me,using same I pad.
          For some reason unknown to me the posts format
          differently at times from how I type them.See post at
          6.56pm to Violet.
          Not being a “techie” cam I’m not interfering with I pad.
          Anyway I’ve been blaming Paul 🙂

    • Den

      Violet,

      First off, posts are better received if you don’t start by making sweeping, and non too complimentary, generalisations about the target audience.

      Speaking for myself, I am not Celtic obsessed and as for us all living in overcrowded Shettleston, where did that idea come from ?

      There is IMHO a lot more evidence that you are Ecojon obsessed. You clearly dislike that screen name and attack him at every opportunity. Your desperation to have a go at him makes you look: just desperate.

      Your friends Cam and Carson, the non Shettlestoners, have (again IMHO) been more responsible for any decline in standards on this blogg than anyone else. Look to Carson’s intervention on Paul’s latest blog, look at the topic he has tried to introduce into recent debate, even Cam distanced himself from that.

      If you think the matter that you highlighted needs to be discussed put up a guest post. Raking over the old sores of religion is not my thing though.

      You know how you want the blogg to develop, write some positive stuff, I remember you did some good posts when you started on here.

      • cam

        I totally fess up Den, to being a reagent for the “decline in the standard” of the more intellectual method of attacking and vilifying RFC.
        I read a few posts on the now defunct RTC blog and concluded that it was just a smug bunch of ill disguised rabid Gers haters who had been to a few night classes.
        This site did and still to a lesser extent, does attract some more learned contributors who are well versed in company law,shares and are prepared to plough through endless pages of guff to prove that the Gers are the Harold Shipman of fitba.
        The motivation behind this blog and the posts of the most frequent contributors may well be the subject of a sociology course in years to come.
        Carson and Violet are not my “friends”,similarly Mick and Eco are not my enemies.
        We, the non Celtic fans have decided, for differing reasons to visit this menagerie and as birds of a different feather the usual suspects don’t welcome our presence.Our bird calls beat to a different drum and its fun watching the feathers getting ruffled.
        If the Gers manage against all the odds to score 2 for 2 in the BDO,LNS bouts, how do you see this blog developing then?
        On a few occassions i have watched the more intellectual Celtic minded contributors in here wander up to the shallow end of this watering hole and have a good wallow in the muckier aspect of Old Firm rivalries(cue ex OF rants).
        For a little while more i shall stroll into this Tic shop, order a pint of non Magners cider and play a few songs on the juke box.I shall then proceed to noise up any gullible punter who tries to sidle up beside me with the Gers evil mantra and beat a hasty exit when the mass punch up starts.
        Now,how do you feel about sporting integrity and cheating to win penalties?
        Mines a cider please!

        • Den

          I think your post was saying that you come on here to disrupt the discussion.

          You categorise most people on here as Gers haters, not very constructive and you didnt like Phil MacG using Klan as a generic term. As it happens I agree with you but you obviously don’t feel the need to be consistent.

          • cam

            I come on here to present an alternative view,most shrewd Celtic minded posters who wish to promote their theory that RFC are the biggest evil in Scots society just ignore my obvious bait.
            The ones who bite, only proceed to expose their own “darkside”.
            “Gers haters” whilst flawed doesn’t have quite the same connotations as Klan.

            • Den

              I cannot deny that you have managed to elicit some strong responses when you have managed to rile people. At times it could be most unsavoury. At the end of the spats you and your opponent usually emerged equally sullied in my opinion.

              Do you think that served a purpose or showed us something that we didn’t know already. It only confirmed my view that it is hard to have a rational discussion on football, politics, religion, or for that matter ScotsLaw. It is much easier to side track discussion than to add to it.

              The term “klan” may be more offensive than “Gers hater” and I am not sure that arguing over their relative demerits and perusing our old French dictionary will help. My point is that both are derogatory and innacurate and detract from discussion. I believe your comment was that they are used to de personalise a group, that is exactly what it does. When people feel they have unfairly been put into such a group they get annoyed and many people strike out in an equally irrational way; but you know that and work that response.

              This blogg and particularly many others will probably be studied by social scientists for years to come and maybe criminologists. I think that the whole demise of Rangers will be a case study for business students given the amount of information in the public domain,

              I am sure I will not come out of their analysis very well but I am just a 3 letter screen name.

              I appreciate the polite manner of your responses. I expected some ridicule or abuse given that I named you as one of those who are responsible for the lowering of the standard of this blogg.

      • Maggie

        @Den
        “you know how you want the blog to develop,write some positive
        stuff” Excellent Den.

        I’ve said my piece to Violet ( not half as well as you tho’ ) and
        now I’m bowing out of the fracas.
        Like you,I have no interest in raking over the old sores of religion,
        but as Violet had made the comment to the effect that “bet no
        one responds etc.” ( to cam’s link ) I decided that I WOULD
        respond,simply to prove her wrong.Asked and answered.

        Too many people disapprove of the way some threads pan out,
        and try to bring it back to their own agenda.I’d rather they
        just read and moved on until something grabbed their
        interest again,instead of getting “huffy” if things don’t go their way.
        Please feel free to ignore me,if you wish Den.I promise not
        to go in the huff.

        • Den

          Maggie,

          I was maybe a little harsh on Violet, but I meant it when I asked for positive input, like her earlier contribution.

          When I referred to raking over old sores I was referring to what the Kearney wrote and excusing myself from any further discussion on that topic, it was not intended to block further discussion or to judge others who felt that it deserved a response. I was pleased to see an intelligent, considered response, often what I write is not as clear as it should be so I am glad to clarify my earlier statement..

          I don’t know why you think I would ignore you, quite the opposite, we like to think of ourselves as friendly and welcoming here in Shettleston.

  4. COYBIG

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-fans-angry-at-dundee-united-1552600

    John McMillan on funny masks…
    But John McMillan, Rangers Supporters Association general secretary, slammed the stunt as provocative and liable to lead to violence.
    “This game is already raised tensions and I fear any move to mock our support could have serious consequences.”

    John McMillan on the death of millions of people…
    But last night John McMillan, secretary of the Rangers Supporters’ Association, said: “This reaction by John Reid is way over the top.
    “I honestly don’t think Rangers fans have any malicious intent when they sing this song.

    • allyjambo

      COYBIG
      They used to sing:
      ‘They don’t like us – we don’t care’
      Now they sing:
      ‘They wear silly masks – we are very upset’

      Do these people not realise just how stupid they make themselves sound? Oh wait a minute, they really are as stupid as they sound!

  5. Geddy Lee

    Violet dear,

    if you want to see what “Obsession” looks like, you merely have to log on to the Bear’s Den Forum. Currently a “very mature” (snigger) debate concerning Sean Fallons Funeral. Classy stuff.

    Oh and here’s Charlie Boy from yesterdays meeting. Again, he just can’t help himself bringing Celtic into the conversation. Shocking to see (among other things) that he admits Rangers are going to make a loss this year despite all the money pouring into his company……..

    Thanks again to the madness that is the Bear’s Den Forum, the home of modern lunacy LOL

    Enjoy everyone….

    Synopsis of the meeting if this helps anyone. With some comments in bold from myself.

    Charles spoke at length as is his norm. Basically he is interested in doing a deal at the right price, etc.
    3 interested parties and the way he was talking one of them is Sports Direct (reading between the lines). No money agreed with anyone and he would like Ibrox included in any name. Not definite that any deal will be signed and not necessarily the highest bidder. It would need to be the right deal to suit the fans, tradition, etc. I didn’t expect any money to be discussed at this time due to commercial sensitivity and confidentiality. At this stage he would probably do year on year deals. He’d prefer to negotiate longer deals but that would wait until we are back in a top league as the money would be better.

    Charles Green staying at Rangers until he retires at 70 unless he is removed from board by fans. That is 10 years.

    Charles Green says his wage is half of what Martin Bain received. Although that may not quite be true. CG gets £360k plus expenses whereas Bain received £633k in the last detailed accounts in 2010. Still a lot less though.

    Duff and Phelps have contacted Charles Green recently to see if he would be interested in investing in any of 3 other clubs (which are in financial trouble). He was willing to show the message on his phone to one nominated fan from the meeting.

    Expects to announce shirt sponsor and kit supplier a week on Monday 4th Feb. Not sure if he meant that day or that week.

    He stated that when we were still in the SPL (at end of last season) he had parties interest in shirt and stadium sponsorship but they aren’t interested whilst we are in 4th tier.

    Delighted with Season Ticket sales. 9,000 didn’t renew from last season for whatever reason. If they return “we will need to get the builders in”.

    He said that RFC would never go bust as long as the fans still turned up. The financial plan does not include any TV money so that has no effect on us.

    There are SPL and SFL meetings to discuss reconstruction. Green says he won’t attend because we have no vote. He said it would be “like going to the toilet for a pee then not having the pee and coming back out”!
    He believes that the SPL will not decide until at least 4 days later when the SFL meet. He said the football authorities were also considering the 14 – 14 – 14 proposal. He reckons when he leaves we will not be playing in Scotland.

    He has been in talks with Newcastle about takings some players in future. Loans or free transfers.

    He said RFC would make a loss this year due to various factors ( Edmiston House, Albion car park, etc) He could have added old football debts as well. That isn’t a surprise. He said we will make profit from the following year.

    Rangers media TV etc will make money for us with ideas from Jim Traynor. Talk of our own tv and radio with phone-ins, etc. Green said very excited about it all and reckons we will love it. Green said can you imagine a Celtic supporter calling in to speak to him and he develops a stutter at £2 a minute.

    There were a few humorous comments throughout. He got more sense from people in Broadmoor than in the offices at Hampden. Germans aren’t hated as much as Rangers.

    He is writing a book with Jim Traynor for “warts and all” disclosure of everything which has happened since his involvement.

    Jim Traynor said he is an Airdrie fan only non-Ranger in his family. He resigned from the DR before the RFC job came up. He didn’t like the way the DR was going.

    That was about it really. One or two questions from the floor but nothing of note”

    LOL, I bet Green will be FURIOUS that someone is printing the truth about what he is telling the fans. He apparently claims to be taking “Only half” the money Bain did. Even the Bears Den refuse to buy that. The Laptop Loyal will also be rsaging as they desperatley try to avoid commenting on Green’s astonishing claims

    As f0r the Book , co written with Traynor, just how fantastic is that going to be. LOL

    Get that cheque book out Violet, it’s going to take another kicking. LOL

  6. cam

    After the pizza,which was the only action JohnBhoy was likely to see,the trio decide to split up.Mick headed to the Irish bars,he trapped two unwary tourists in a booth and quizzed them on the deeds and showed them his party trick of making Siri on his iphone cry.
    Maggie hit the stores for a new holster and asked if a crazy looking guy had been in buying women’s underwear.
    JohnBhoy using his streetsmarts, quizzed the local news vendors if they had sold any Rangers News or copies of Big ladies in Bowlers.
    Cam ,meantime, found out where the snitch, Nimmo was being stashed and rigged up the neon sign outside Nimmo’s room to send subliminal messages clearing the Gers.
    JohnBhoy and Maggie retrieved Mick from 42nd street subway station where he was busy lifting folk over the turnstiles.At a loss as to what to do next, Mick said “why don’t we ask Eco?,he knows everything”.
    Eco had fingers in every pie,there wasn’t a deal brokered anywhere in Gotham that he didn’t have an honest opinion on.
    Eco told the sweaty trio that word on the street was that there were two Cams and that all the families had vowed to silence them.After warning the trio of the marauding gangs of Gers fans terrifying his lifelong friends in Greenwich Village he sent them on their way and asked them to pop into Wall St and check how his shares were doing.

    next instalment: Cam takes on Mick at Scrabble and is seriously injured.
    coming here
    soon

    • COYBIG

      @cam

      You’re not supposed to eat a full bag of mushrooms in a oner.

    • Maggie

      @cam
      A HOLTSTER!!!!!! To be read in a Lady Bracknell voice.
      Body armour more like.

    • arb urns

      A cool wind had found daftwiggs a leafy suburb of deargreenplace,scotlands largest city and home to scotlands two largest beetle drive clubs, the cherry pickers and the shamrock gatherers.
      lord no surrender was out walking the goat and he knew only too well in a few days time he would chair a commission charged with looking into an All scotland beetle drive league scandal that was to do with the cherry pickers allegedly breeching rules on contracted beetles remuneration. a puff of wind dislodged his lordships headgear, a bowler hat, and billy grunted at this sudden draft whistling around his buge halls.he had arranged to meet when they reached the open fields a thai goat he had been messaging earlier that day on the goattee dating website.

      the dislodged bowler served as a timely reminder to his lordship that he had his own thai scandal to concern him for not but two nights ago he had been caught in a beetledungtrap whereby he had accepted a koktale party invite aboard sir polo’s gaff rigged sloop moored in the govan marina.there he had been introduced to an oscar nominated blue movie producer whose name had escaped.axminster-runner rang a bell but he could be wrong. no surrender would definately be carpeted if news of that night leaked out in the msm and he was sure he would lose the lord bit of his name.he took comfort however in the knowledge he could rely on his lack,the airdrieonian turned sevconian to provide the protection he needed from the succulent hacks.
      abruptly his lordship about turned on the vibration of the mobile nestling against his right bollock and turned homeward without regard for the hig bard on beneath billy’s mane as he had goattee thoughts of a bangkok night around the corner.
      his lordship had a call to make………

      to be continued……..maybes aye maybes no.

  7. COYBIG

    So a Club/Company that’s just had a…ahem…successful share issue and is selling the naming rights of their stadium for the ‘pricely’ sum of £1.5m (don’t laugh), will make a loss at the end of this financial year? And what was asked after Green announced that? “Will our seats be kept blue?”

    Charlie also said he would sell the naming rights of Ibrox to the fans, if they offered more money than anyone else. So it will cost the fans millions to rename Ibrox, eh…Ibrox. Brilliant Charlie, pure brilliant.

    Make sure you saviour Charlie’s delusions of grandeur while you still can tho. His latest bout of verbal diarrhoea costs 99p (1p less than Craig Whyte paid 2 years ago for, the now extinct, Rangers) to watch on The Rangers TV. Speaking of bodily functions, how long do you think it’ll be before he’s charging the fans to have a pish at whatever it happens to be called by then? Which by the way, is extremly unfair on the fans. They’ve already paid £250 to watch the pish that’s on the park.

    Charlie’s in talks with Newcastle about taking players in the future. But would Tiote and Cabye get a game ahead of Elbows, Black n’ Blue and all the Wonderkids tho? Not forgetting the Barcelona B players who The Rangers are going to buy on the cheap and sell for £12m after a few seasons.

    Even the Germans aren’t hated as much as The Rangers? So I guess, going by that comment, Charlie’s stuck somewhere between 1939 and 1945. Well at least it’s further on than 1690.

    Finally, Charlie’s bringing out a book, which will be written by Jim Traynor. So expect a poorly written, long winded, comic book. Actually, I might buy a copy and keep it in the loo. No, not to read while on the throne, just incase I run out of toilet roll. What? It’ll already be full of shite anyway, so no harm done.

    • Maggie

      @COYBIG
      God I pure dead love Chico! Chico must stay!
      Oh! wait a sec,just had one of my gal pals on the phone
      there,we girls,Oprah,Heidi and I call her Angie,but I think you
      might know her as Mrs Merkel.She wants to know who that
      “racialist” in Glasgow is,who keeps comparing his two bob
      football team to her glorious German people…..and not in a good
      way.She says he’ll be hearing from the Stasi,oops she meant
      the European Court of Human Rights,if he’s not careful.

    • ecojon

      @Coybig

      Loved that bit in the meeting — supposed to be about the thorny question of stadium renaming — when harmony was achieved because the seats are staying the same colour. Well they would because Sports Direct has the same colours as Rangers 🙂

      The really really interesting thing is Traynor saying something along the lines, according to Ranger tweeters, that they only have approx £10 million from the flotation. I thought it had raised £22 million lets say £2 million for exes – so where’s the other £10 million? And it seems not a single Bear asked the question.

      • arb urns

        its a cracker- to cam and his army of little miss mongolians-read chicos words- making a loss !!!!!!- the missing 10m is the octopus in the room cam.

        Sell the history for peanuts ayebrokes no more yet titles under scrutiny are sacro- as long as the seats remain blue cost more than the 1.5 to take em out .and put something back- as mr black had the biggest ebt go for that colour.

        the airdrieonian turned sevconian could yet stll b the first man in scottish football history to do The Liquidation Treble.

        • ecojon

          @arb burns

          I seem to remember a few months ago chico claiming that Rangers would be the richest club in Scottish football this year with what was it £20 million in the bank. I’ll need to dig that one out as well.

          I wonder if his book is going to have a chapter on all his promises that never came to pass 🙂

          And the D&P comment was interesting as well and I ssume BDO will hve spotted it. Still loved the bit about the phone message that one fan was allowed to see. I seem to remember a similar stunt over the deeds when a fan at another meeting was allowed to see them – I wonder if he knew what he ws looking at? Could it be the same fan?

          The circus just carries on 🙂

          • arb urns

            @ ecoj

            The Yorkshire Terrier yelping. So D and P want to raid these shores again for another 5m swag bag and appear to have enlisted the Terrier to ‘locate’ frontmen after all The T is a top frontman locator, Kevin Kyle, Bomber ( a when needs must frontman) might need some hush money in the days ahead.D and P b better advised to ensure a no extradition treaty with the auld enemy.

            Anyway to our tale and a title for Charles and James entry for the Mann Booker.The book will have to take the form of a DC Thomson comic strip Annual as clearly neither contributor are righters. I respectfully suggest:-

            The Goons Annual- who would be Fat Boab ?

            perhaps we should run a comp on here for the best title- nest of tables to the winner and a discarded craigiemask to the runner up.

            May have a lead in the hunt for the 45 years and standing school sprint records down sheffield way keep u posted.

  8. lord mac

    with murray trust selling shares maybe it is them that is giving the 1.5 million to rangers and allowing a name change to of set

  9. Carl31

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/24/david-cameron-tax-avoidance-davos-speech

    An interesting article. One bit struck me wrt a number of comments here re the myriad companies that are involved in teh Rangers Saga and some inferences drawn…

    “… and our company registry is a near perfect example of appalling company regulation on this and other issues, striking off hundreds of thousands of companies a year rather than demand that they comply with their legal obligations.”

    I always enjoy reading some of the noted information gleaned from Companies House info on these and other pages, but the above quote is a neatly put reason why it should be taken with a small pinch of salt.

    • ecojon

      @Carl31

      I would say that Companies House has turned into merely a Post Office over the past 20 years and only idiots appears to fall foul of its Regulatory & Investgatory functions.

      It is quite depressing but there is no real political will to do anything about it as no one in power wants to shake up the City & Markets. We’ve had the window dressing over bonuses and things will soon be back to business as usual.

      The only people constantly under the cosh are those on PAYE and in spite of all the announcements I really don’t see that changing.

  10. cam

    Here you go mick,,,put your porridge down or you might choke!
    cam

    January 25, 2013 at 7:51 am

    Off topic ,but Commander Leggo,the blogger with the fastest finger in the west,has clearly debunked Pauls and others theories regards the LNS Commission.
    The guy, in the time it takes to cook two square sausages, has presented a fait accompli,a total masterclass in incisive journalism and i see no further need for the Tic fans moonlighting as lawyers,presenting their, “green round the gills”, “evidence”,,,case closed!
    http://davidleggat-leggoland.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/

    • arb urns

      oh dear cam this doesnt look good. The plastic brick says the payments were non contractual thats against the spl rule if you want to look it up and the loan bit is shaky too as the rule includes all things financial. in theory it should impossible for u to get to two and zero in the ‘pyrhiccs’ but such is the bending over for your disgraced self appointed royal X1 so far that one more touch your toes all ye non blues should be just about achievable.suggest u tip the old buffer off before ” the controversial LNS” gets his specs on and checks the blogs

      and finally…… i wont b in the wee rangers club on saturday before the montrose game……

      ps how do u nod off at night knowing her maj is so much out of pocket from your wonga type payroll. 10 years of it too. these belisha daiquirris must b good stuff.

    • Carl31

      Cam,
      I have not read the linked article, but have seen the defence on Rangers Standard, that the payments weren’t contractual.

      LNS sets out the issues that comprise the charges faced in the SPLIC. Ive added the bold…

      “Broadly speaking, the Issues in the first three chapters allege that Oldco and Rangers FC breached the relevant Rules of the SPL, and also those of the SFA (breach of which constitutes a breach of Rules of the SPL), by failing to record EBT payments and arrangements in the contracts of service of the Specified Players and/or other Players and by failing to notify them to the SPL and the SFA. ..”

      So if any defence is mounted on the basis that these payments in question were non-contractual (they indeed weren’t recorded in the contracts of service), I would suggest this as a prime example of a Lionel Hutz, Attorney at Law moment, and dooooomed to fail.

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