The spin will be that the issue was a success. I would say that green and co will be very disappointed, £5m shortfall is very significant.
The fans for all their clamour, for all the club PR hype and the slightly heavy legal threats to, off message, commentators have only taken half of their allocation.
I guess it is understandable given that the fans have paid out for STs. Mr Green and his board weren’t to know that were they ?
These are tough economic times, typical that recessions happen just 4 years before your share issue. Such bad luck !
The Prospectus didn’t arrive on time to a lot of potential Investors. Who could have foreseen postal delays just before Christmas, who could have allowed a bit more time?
Christmas is an expensive time of the year. I for one, think that Christmas should be on the same date every year to stop business men from being caught out in this way.
HMRC caused a delay by voting against the CVA within the allowed time after being asked for decision. The plot weakens.
Given the above the Rangers Directors are either stupid or needed to grab cash when they could.
The Rangers fans are passionate, vociferous but maybe a wee bit frugal and cash strapped.
The one group I can’t understand are the institutional Investors. These are investment professionals and should be immune to bullshit, having heard loads of it and also being proficient bullshitters themselves.
These professionals are presented with an opportunity to invest in a SCOTTISH FOOTBALL CLUB, not a top tier club, but – a Fourth tier club. Now they are a new club so can’t qualify for lucrative Euro competitions until they have 3 years Accounts, that will be something like 3 years, assuming that they qualify of course.
Now this ambitious new start is paying top of top division wages and bonuses to it’s players staff and Directors. Don’t sign up yet there is more.
A look at the club’s projected results tell you; nothing because there are no projected results. the first 3 months accounts show a trading loss with a massive Profit after tax. Have they found how to turn Base metals to GOLD ?
NO: but they have discovered Negative Goodwill, £20m of it.
Now Negative Goodwill is fantastic, it has no substance but it bulks up Asset values and profit. All you need is to create Group Accounts and with some inventiveness you have Negative Goodwill and profits. One small downside is that it seems to my (non legal) mind to be an admission of Gratuitous Alienation, but why ruin a good theory.
Anyway 3 months accounts tell you not much more than nothing. these people should understand the accounting implications and have expert advice where there is any doubt.
I am not up on what these Institutional Investors do but could they be acting on behalf of clients and not investing on their own account. That’s a genuine question because I really can’t explain it; football clubs don’t make money so why put investment funds that have been entrusted to you in such an investment, unless coming to Christmas they have a Turkey quota .
Posted by Den
Random Thoughts Re Scots Law by Paul McConville 
They just can’t get enough of the biggest show in town The Rangers, as another pointless thread confirms, don’t you have a team of your own to concentrate on.
Right enough why worry about second best when you can everyday focus on the best The Rangers.
Let’s see how long this takes to escape moderation……if it does…lol
had to laff at lackey mccoist in wan of the toilet papers yesterday promoting dvd for 140 years.try 140 days lackey thats aw the history you,ve got
in the paper the day dun untd will sell tickets to the real rangers fans,if theres any trouble at that game green should be hauled up and kicked out of scotland.that shit he said today was only to incite the knuckle draggers to go and cause trouble,then he would blame untd and say it was,nt rangers fans,how does this guy get away with it.what hold have they over the sfa that no action is taken,no matter wot they say or do.kenny shiels should be asking the same question that guy gets pulled in for fartin
a jist canny understand it, any other manager utters any critiscism at refs/sfa or anybody else is hauled up and fined and given touchline bans yet mccoist n green can constantly bring the game and scottish football into disrepute and nothing happens.wheres the sfa/uefa/fifa even.this has got to stop once and for all,they,re making us the laughing stock of the world,never mind europe.
Before investing other people’s money, institutions have a very thorough internal process which has to be adhered to…i.e the investment manager must demonstrate to his peers exactly why he thinks the investment decision is a good one, how it will be benefit his clients portfolio and how he has adhered to regulatory requirements. This must all be auditable. I’m at a complete loss also as to how any investment house thought this was a good deal, unless they’re privy to facts the general public aren’t (another regulatory matter altogether). I’d equally like someone using reasoned argument point out how institutions are going to make money out of this…
A fundamental problem with a lot of investment funds/institution is the fund manger, or the manager of the portfolio earn a lot of money from these investments. Even if it isn’t making any money, even if it is losing money, they still earn a sizable amount from fees and associated costs involved. That has in the last decade allowed them to make decision not on what is the best for there clients, but how much they can make for themselves.
That isn’t to say that there isn’t any risks involved in certain types of funds that go after high risk investments but where there is risks, it is there for the clients and not much if any accountability for the manager involved in them choosing to invest in certain high risk, toxic assets usually no one would touch with a 20 foot pole, should things go sour and there clients lose it all. But the upside comes in the form of a tax relief, if you could call it an upside.
Which would benefit the client, a long term sell on shares when and if they ever double or go up enough to make anything out of it or the tax relief, who knows.
They are now waiting for the three wise men?
. . . and auditions for the back end of the horse!
Ah, but if you invest in a basketcase, then you can get tax relief on the investment.
Dodgy tree reserves, dodgy film investments, now dodgy Football investments, note… unless l&G clients start withdrawing funds as they feel investments unwise, no-one cares..
Green just needs any cash from anywhere. Celtic stock jumped 10% – on RFC entry to AIM, odd ?
Nice one Den. Like you I wonder about the IIs. What exactly is in it for them? It might be a good idea to see if a more financially successful club such as Celtic has IIs. I’m a shareholder in that wonderful club (having more than willingly contributed to the Bunnet’s farewell gift) but have never read a single line of the bumph that comes to me annually, so I’m in the dark about who, apart from Desi , are significant shareholders. But lest it be thought that I’m casting doubt upon Chico’s roll call of investors, I most certainly am not. What I am saying is that if he can wring money out of them for a fourth tier club that’s so young it’s still suckling on Satan’s teat, then think what we could extract from them.
The 50% uptake by fans is very questionable. If we had access to the facts I think you will find that Mr Charles, McCoist and other “big” names had their
investments lumped into the £5m. I gather that the Berrs contributed just over £2m to the cause. Very poor.
” I gather that the Berrs contributed just over £2m to the cause”
And just where would this information come from for you to “gather” it?
Face saving wishful thinking by mad Phil and his ilk after a red face educing and spectacularly wrong blog on Tuesday night doesn’t really count.
Well we know McCoist bought shares (how many) for his 5 sons, when he already had loads to just give away… its that really legal to buy during the IPO when major shareholder already?? is that not ramping ?
“Is that not ramping?”
No it isn’t
you sue @iain mccoist said he had be warned it illigal to say if buying shares was good or bad, so saidbhe had bought for all 5 sons…..?
Think you will find a statement that RST now own 12 percent of the fans’ take up of the IPO.
By my reckoning that is just north of 2.1 million greenbacks.Do the math or pay attention at the back of the class!!
@martybhoy and where did you find this that the trust has 12% no statement has came out of the rst so for you to say this you must have made it up.mccoist bought the shares through the club why feel the need to clutch at straws speculating it just makes you look obsessed jealous or sad.
Andrew Woods
I am not sure what you mean. If you mean that original investments were lumped in then that is not right. However, if they, like the other ‘public’ invested in the IPO phase then that is OK. But I have no evidence that they did.
Also, above someone posted about dodgy investments. The word dodgy is not appropriate, can we use speculative. Tax reliefs are available for companies investing in areas someone (usually the government) is trying to stimulate. The investments are often highly speculative (the film is no good) so to encourage investment, investors are offered very attractive tax breaks. However, no one in their right mind invests in anything they “KNOW” to be a turkey just for the sake of the tax breaks.
“However, no one in their right mind invests in anything they “KNOW” to be a turkey just for the sake of the tax breaks.”
The only caveat to the above is that there are some really clever people looking at loopholes and I would guess that sometimes it is advantageous to invest for a loss loss. My feeling is that it is very rare though.
As a general rule Tax breaks will reduce your loss by the rate of tax in force, it doesn’t cancel out the loss.
Kind of digressing I think that tax breaks to encourage investment in certain areas is the wrong use of the tax system. Tax should be about raising revenue. It is complex enough without excess Political interference.
Rather than disappointed with the fans’ uptake I think Charles Green will be ecstatic at drawing 17m out of institutional investors. Against that the fans’ investment is small fry. Whatever you say about Green his salesman skills are proving to be quite formidable. [It’s not for nothing I view him as an Arthur Daley character 🙂 ]
The question then turns to why the institutional investors see this to be a worthy investment. These are a some of the possibilities:
1. Green has effectively sold to them that Rangers’ future is outside of Scottish Football. I’d rate this most likely and it may well happen. Although there’s been noises for years coming from Parkhead and Ibrox around this theme there are now clear indications that some upheaval is under-way across Europe – Russia/Ukraine/Belarus for one, Holland/Belgium another. They will still be gambling that any change is significantly positive – entry in a combined British setup would be more lucrative than say an Atlantic League although both would add value.
2. The fund managers are simply inept and believe investing in shares in a football club at a value above their main rivals, while their main rivals are three divisions above them, are developing and producing players worth several million pounds, are excelling in the Champions League and have a larger global fanbase is a sound investment. I’d say unlikely.
3. Past investments in football clubs have proven to be universally unprofitable because they’re run purely as sporting ventures, not profit-making businesses. Financial Fair Play will change all that, and for a club like Rangers with minimal debt and a solid fanbase, investors looking 5 years down the line and with wages capped at 33% of turnover (as claimed) may see this a winning business model. Could be the case for some funds.
One more thing I meant to add – no matter the motivation of investors, the question remains why would they buy Rangers shares at a price above where Celtic are currently listed when they could simply buy Celtic shares on the open market? The only argument I can see for that is that Celtic shares may be limited in availability and any large scale purchase will effectively push the price above Rangers anyway.
Can RANGERS really walk into new euro league in thier state… ?
More likely heart/hibs should link up, and form a mega-edinburgh club and aim for the 2nd scottish slot behind celtic.
Rangers are millions behind Celtic in squad personel alone, and can only cherry pick “out-of-contract” players for year to come.
By the time anything happened in that respect they should be back in the top tier and their financial base should have them back in Europe. Celtic are miles in front in terms of club organization and philosophy but Rangers should be a solid second on field within 4-5 years
A lot has been made of the value of Rangers compared to Celtic.
Perhaps rather than Rangers being over valued, Celtic are in fact undervalued.
They have plenty of scope to make profit due to champions league money, although this needs to be balanaced against reduction in tickets sales domestically.
As another poster said, not many people are selling Celtic shares, and therefore the price will remain as it is unless there is a supply to meet any demand.
I am sure if Celtic were going through an IPO, they would be valued higher than Rangers, but surely the time to buy shares is when they are low and the business can only go in one direction.
I am sure any invitation to a European league will not be based on current league positions.
Rangers are a bigger club than Hearts and Hibs combined and would be more attractive to a league in terms of sponsorship etc.
you have to balance rangers current attendance with past failures and current lack of talent, euro leauge is for winners not loosers
also gers would bring huge finanial risks (most recent liquidated club) and sectarian issues to euro league, would euro teams want gers fans trashing thier capitals……..
think hibs/ hearts combo could challenge gers in attendance and avoid hearts £22millions debt issue…. as we now know a team going into liquidation can lead to same team debt-free and cash rich…….?
far too many clubs in scotland, needs rationalisation
hibs/hearts as one team, dundee/utd one team, aberdeen + highlands teams, may lead to smaller set of leauges inthis tv and internet age……
or celtic/rangers join euro league and rest wither on vine……
as green says who wants to see manutd vs southampton, when manutd vs real madrid alternative, but who wants to see rangers vs anyone outside spl???
For Heaven’s sake, they can’t be invited to a European League for three years as they are a new club and have to submit three years annual accounts. Now, while the Scottish authorities would love to give that one a body swerve, they cannot, as they are subservient to UEFA! For heaven’s sake how long does it take to sink in! According to the rules of EUFA and FIFA—and the ECA–they are a new club!
Let’s hope for the newcos sake it isn’t based on behaviour of fans.
Motical
I am not familiar with the accounts of Celtic so cannot comment on share value. However, it is never a straight choice. As you put it in your earlier post, investors may see a winning business model. And they may be seeing huge upside from progress towards Europe.
@ Violet,
there are not many TU’s or TD’s on your rational comment, but why any TD’s at all for a very simple non-partisan comment?
Are some commenters not liking comment that might in any small way be showing an upside for a team you don’t support?
This is perhaps an inappropriate moment to bring it up, but JohnBhoy gave a very emotive post about the lost children and teachers in Connecticut, and I wish some here could read it, think about it and apply the result of their thinking to the rest of their comments or thumb clicking.
This is football that is being discussed, not life or death. the emotive comments, and, I have to assume, thumb clicking made here are quite ridiculous in the face of the human tragedy facing the town of Newtown.
I’m sure you don’t really care about the thumbs either way Violet, but as an indication of the way people think, it does make me very sad.
You know, when I wrote my earlier comment there were 2 thumbs up to 4 down for Violet’s innocent comment, now there are 3 up (including mine) to 12 down and I can only hope hope that those who gave Violet the thumbs down therefore attach no significance to the thumbs either way.
I tried to give violet a thumbs up bit it wont register, could explain the imbalance?
But i doubt it
Moctical,
The reasons you set out are feasible.
I can only surmise that they were given more insight into the plans for the Companies than people who invested on the basis of the IPO.
Clubs are already finding ways to curcumvent financial fair play, have you seen Paris st germane new ” sponsorship” deal of € 150 m per year
“The one group I can’t understand are the institutional Investors. These are investment professionals and should be immune to bullshit, having heard loads of it and also being proficient bullshitters themselves.”
Perhaps this is because they know a little more about these things than you? And that they don’t base their opinions on Sellick web sites such as this?
Just like Ticketus knew what they were doing?
How many shares did ticketus buy?
Anyway…I thought the perceived wisdom on here is there was no way they had walked away and were still involved?
Or is that now quietly forgotten with all the other theories?
Buying shares is an investment decision, so is lending money. It was a horrible investment decision by investment professionals. End.
Yep…you must know best…you post on an anonymous blog after all
Are you suggesting the decision to front Whyte the money was sound?
If the institutional investors are normally immune to bullshit, does that not suggest to you that what they have heard is not bullshit, and what is being said about the IPO from non financial sources is in fact bullshit.
I don’t know a great deal about the stock markets, but from what I gather the price is related to the exepectation of future growth. With Rangers being in the third division, then the only way is up.
Grant,
That is why I am asking. Why did the professionals take a stake in a Football Club, they don’t make profits thses days. Did they get more complete briefings than what was in the prospectus on the future plan and prospects.
The valuation of shares is theoretically based on future income and in many cases that is the approach used but a quick buck in the short term is very persuasive.
Making profit is irrelevant – it’s the expected increase in value of shares that matters. I buy and sell shares in a mining company on the AIM. They have never posted a profit. Not once! But the fundamentals are good and things are being turned around. The turnaround and the expectation of making a profit has increased the value of this share by 60p in a month. That’s all that matters. Investors generally buy shares because they think that the price will increase.
I am a Celtic supporter; but I think there is some money to be made in Rangers because the fundamentals are excellent. Huge revenue potential, a modern stadium and no debt is a great starting point. Sure, in sporting terms, it’s a disgrace that they will return easily as the second highest placed club in Scotland; but investors don’t care a jot about sporting integrity. They only care about turning a profit.
” The turnaround and the expectation of making a profit has increased the value of this share by 60p in a month.”
Really the share price has increased 60p in a month? Don’t think the bears that bought at 70p about a week ago will ever be able to sell at 130p. If course you may be talking about the insitutional investors who rumour has it bought at anything between 1p and 70p
“Huge revenue potential” mibbe mibbe not. Solvency will have to be established before any potential can be realised
“a modern stadium” complete with asbestos and 40 years of low maintenance? Hardly modern!
” and no debt ” Are you sure Mr Charles’ statement on no external debt is true given that there is the original investment and proof that there has been at least one loan by a director for an exorbitant fee
Grank Galvin
Got to disagree with you. Making a profit is very relevant. I think you contradict yourself later, so I guess you meant current profit, or short term.
A rise in shares can be in expectation of future profits like in your mining company and the expectation can carry it for a while, If the profit is not forthcoming the price will crash.
Many investors invest for stable and relatively secure income via dividends and not Capital Growth (welcome all the same). It is the total return over and above your initial investment that counts and profitability gives the potential for rising dividends, expectation of rising dividends will maintain higher price than if tey expected to remain stable.
I must caution that profit must be backed by a real increase in economic value and you must be careful of elements of profit that don’t add value to the business. Changes in Accounting policy can increase profit etc. but fundamentally the company hasn’t gained value.
During the DotCom boom we were told that it was a different business environment and profit was secondary. Then a crash when people realised they were buying hype.
Before the crash everyone was focussed on growth, guess what, well I’ve given it away, a crash.
My comments should be interpreted as applying in the Medium to long term, short term all sorts of stuff can happen which can inflate share price.
The Rangers are probably in a decent position to work their way back, I have said this before. To work their way back with lower revenue they need to cut the cloth to suit. They haven’t shown any sign of it. Because of the need for 3 years accounts even a favourable League reconstruction will not get them to Euro Competition.
Working their way back will be long term job. The people who invested in Rangers (non fans, the majority by share value) are probably more interested in a short term profit, I am sceptical that they are interested in trhe long hard road that will yield a strong, financially viable Football club.
Frank.
Sorry, I spelled your name wrong
Den
Iain
That is the point I was making.
I can understand the fans investing in their club, I am a member of a club (not football related). It csts me to be a member but worth it to me.
Institutional Investors are using other people’s money to enhance theri savings. I would have thought that they wouldn’t touch any football club (including Celtic).
Do they know something that was not apparent to me from the prospectus that makes Rangers a worthwhile investment ?
I don’t base my opinion on “Sellick” web sites, I form my own opinion flawed though it may be. Any information to educate me is welcome.
LETS face it thery are F****d as they said in the other blogs
move along timmy nothing to see here
merry christmas to all lets get the party started
Hail Hail
In terms of your question “what is in it for the institutional investors” I think this is fairly clear.
Green bought the club and it’s assets at rock bottom value, even with a market cap of 40 million there is substantial wiggle room for club to grow. Investors will make profit either through dividends or selling shares on that much is almost certain(I say almost as any investment is a gamble). Green’s fairly staid looking financial model of wage bill below 40% of turnover removes the typical fears of a boom and bust football club and makes this a low risk investment.
Looking beyond the fact Rangers are a relatively safe investment there is also that tiny possibility that the creation of a european or cross border league could finally allow Rangers and Celtic to finally unlock the holy grail of real revenues from their media rights. Even if there is only a 5% chance of this happening in the next 10 years, should it happen that market cap disappears and the rewards for early investors are phenomenal.
Den
This is a bit more like it. Viewed against the prophesies of some, who predicted a car crash, the IPO was a success, but that masked the fact that actually it was a failure. Only 50% take up and a £5m hole. Mr Green needs to explain how he will plug that.
Re. the Ins. Investors, I have written elsewhere that by my calculations the break up value of the shares is around £1.66 (please correct me if I have got that wrong) and for want of a better basis (no real trading history) investors look at 70p as against £1.66 and make their decision. What must also be remembered is that RFC are a big and potentially bigger club in among minnows. The outlook is that they can only climb and expand financially. That makes them attractive as well. Those are the basics, but now we come to ‘noise’ or the unforeseen/unexpected.
If RFC are to climb through the divisions and realise their potential, they will need to spend a lot of money. If they were planning to spend 5/6 years coming through the divisions, then the youngsters might have time. However, they want to get to the top ASAP and that will take money, especially if they want to get into Europe. Where is it coming from?
The current trading position is very unclear. Much is said about money sloshing around in the bank, but that may disappear as snow in summer in support of a loss making operation. We need further and better particulars before we can form a judgement.
And then there is Mr Green and his mouth. Some of his utterances are, I think even he would concede, ill considered. The point about not joining the SPL for example. However, others seem very well considered to maintain the siege mentality that exists at Ibrox. The refusal of tickets for the DU game, the idea that others conspired against them and the general ‘no one likes us…’ attitude are not likely to endear him to large scale investors. It may be that the institutions will hang around and see how it develops and take their profit and run. The price of the shares will suffer of course, but RFC already have the cash from the IPO. But, what a fall in the price will impact upon is RFC’s ability for raising future funds.
The final point is Mr McCoist and how long he will be around. Passing through Divs. 3 and 2 might not be much of a problem, but Div. 1 is another matter. A group of youngsters led by has beens might not cut it. Mr. McCoist may have to go and with him might go some of the loyalty. New managers come expensive, especially those with the pedigree to reach Europe. Of course this is pure speculation (some might say fancy), but they are potential problems.
What all this and much else leads me to believe is that RFC are a very long way from being out of the woods and the Institutions will be watching those woods very closely. I would like to see RFC succeed, but I have real fears that their trading position will deteriorate saddled as they are with a stadium which is too grand for their current income and players who are paid way beyond what they need to be (is it true that Kyle gets £7k a week).
I think GREEN many have his utterances severely curtailed, as every word can now effect the share price, and if it slides his silly maths grasp will haunt him.
Lots of bad news (dual contract, ebt appeal, cup-loses, boycotts) are likely to impact share prices negatively, so will be intersting phase.
Also SFA now have power back, any bans, fines, punishments will also hit bottom-line and this will effect share-price…. So….
who knows…
I actually wanted to reply to your original comment about the book value but had no time to do it and now I can not find it. Anyway, I think you calculated with an assets value of 100m (and a share quantity of 65m) but the only accounting report I could find was the one in the prospectus and it states the net assets with approximately 48m with the number of shares being approximately 65m I come to a corporate book value per share of around 74p. So taking the book value of the company it seems that the share price is pretty accurate.
Now I would like to voice my own opinion. I do not like to use the book value for calculating a company value without comparing it to the intrinsic value. For me it is too inaccurate as company accounts are never unbiased. The problem in this particular case lies in the absence of the economic key figures. There is only the 3 month report in the prospectus. So without chash flows, etc. there is no way to calculate the intrinsic value. I admit the estimation of the intrinsic value is also not unbiased but comparing both values and the acctual market value normally works out pretty well for a quick valuation.
I also think that the investors see the growth potential of the company. I do not mean the club because with football alone you can not make money as an investor in a football company but Rangers is a fairly big brand without any real assets. Yes, there is the stadium and the training complex but both are useless outside of football. So there is a lot of potential there (and not just in Rangers but in Celtic and almost all of the UK football companies as well). Nevertheless the prospectus only mentioned a car park as project, I guess. That’s a nice beginning but not much more than that. Take a look for example at Ajax Arena in Amsterdam. A stadium, basement car park and a mall, all in one building. But I digress.
All in all I agree with your analysis and you raise some fair points.
The IPO has been a pyrrhic victory for Mr Green. Not because of the shortfall of 5m from the supporters but the lack of their counterweight to the influence of the Institutional Investors on the share price.
Lets take a look at the Celtic plc shares. It is pretty tough to purchase some because they are erratically traded as the majority of the shareholders do not want to trade their shares. Therefore the share price does not vary too much (I think it has been around 35 – 40p in the last 2 years). The advantage of this is that with this stability in the market value of the company it is easier to plan as a company, the disadvantage is the probable undervaluation of Celtic plc.
Rangers International now is different. I do not know the exact numbers but I guess about 40 per cent of the shares will be in Investors hands. The problem with football shares is that if they are not held tight by shareholders they tend to show a significantly higher variance than other shares as football companies are not only influenced by the economy but also by success in sporting terms. So what happens if Rangers miss promotion next year or in two? Or if investors expect a cup victory and international football afterwards and it does not happen?
All of that leads me to think that Mr Green traded a potential long term stability for a short term success and I still can not figure out why he wanted this IPO to happen. And as it seems that he is pretty shrewd (despite his rhetorics) I probably will never know his reasons.
Micheal
I was never sure about the asset value, and without going into the depths of the prospectus I am not sure I ever will be. However, Mr Green has stated that the fixed assets were valued at around £80m and I have heard £100m mentioned. However yours is the published figure and your calculation is more accurate than mine. I will however do more research now that a number of us seem to be interested in a more dispassionate analysis.
PS how do you do those accents in your name.
Violet,
Pages 62 and 63 of the prospectus take you through the steps where a £5.5m purchase of assets ends up at approx £60M (excluding additions). It is not an easy read, not for me anyway.
The DM Hall valuation was higher again and seemed to be based on rebuilding the assets.
If the liquidators don’t raise the question of Gratuitous alienation in this case I will conclude that whatever the law says it is not a practical concept.
@Michael
“All of that leads me to think that Mr Green traded a potential long term stability for a short term success and I still can not figure out why he wanted this IPO to happen. And as it seems that he is pretty shrewd (despite his rhetorics) I probably will never know his reasons.”
Maybe this?:
Making the Club as successful as you possibly can as quickly as you possibly can and then sell at the highest price you can get. It doesn’t matter what’s happens to the Club in the future as you’ve got your money and not involved anymore. A bit like bluffing your way to a pot of thousands against someone who’s got a straight, when all you’ve got is a pair of 2s.
Mícheál,
A very good post, it covers a lot of the questions I have asked myself.
The Only answer I can come up with is that he sacrificed because of cash flow problems.
I have read a few posts about young players maturing, this is not going to happen. To be a success there would have to be the 2nd & 3rd generation already at Murray Park, remember, a Club is lucky if a couple make it all the way. How many youngsters have been through Murray Park to date? How many made the grade? Have they upgraded the scouting system to cover the international youngsters they are missing out on just now?
The statements coming out of Ibrox seem to indicate that the model being followed is the same old tried & failed one of spending money they cannot afford. How will this tie in with the promised intention of capping the % spent on player contracts?
the first Real indication of the direction Rangers are going in will be when Audited Accounts are produced, I know they will hide a multitude but will also reflect the viability of the model being pursued & underlying trend towards balance or loss..
Violet. glad you didn’t leave as you are needed to offset the voices of unreason such as my own. All the best for the festive season. Put your feet up and have a milk stout on me.
Violet,
Asset valuation is one way of valuing a business and you clearly look at it from other angles as well which is the right approach.
I would say that in this case asset valuation is a very poor indicator. Last time the assets were on the market they were sold, hence valued at £6.7m. The same assets are on the Balance sheet at circa £60m. This has all occured in the last 6 months not years ago.
Unless the administrators were totally inept or corrupt (not saying they were) then on break upthe assets would be worth around the £6.7m.
There was some sophisticated accounting input to revalue the assets but last time it was tested they were worth £6.7m.
The fair value adjustment leading to the £20m P&L credit (profit) suggests to me that a market asssessment said they were worth £27M. Could there have been a trade off between showing a whopping profit and leaving themselves open to charges of gratuitous alienation.
The asset revaluation was vased on the present value of future anticipated revenue. I understand this enough to know that I can’t comment without seeing the numbers, but I am sceptical about the true value os such an exercise..
I will try to comment on some of your other points soon.
Den
This is the sort of debate we need. Good on you.
Violet,
You wanted a debate. Please answer, to have a debate we need content not reciprocity.
In fact, as a Hearts supporter do you not think their treatment by the SFA is worse than any Rangers model has been treated?
If so, this forum & others are open to you to garner support…. after you have solved the Share Issue obviously…. Ooop’s Hearts. had one too-, in case you missed it.
I think the best thing to do is just let the newco fans get on with it. The newspapers are happy to feed them a daily diet of stodge and they seem happy enough to lap it up, I’m often amazed at the speed they buy into the guff Charles Green spouts on a daily basis. The Sun must have a journalist shadowing Ally 24/7 for the amount of pro Green stories that are in the paper daily. I still find myself getting irritated at that stupid “Charles Green has rangersitis headline”, I’m astounded any jouralist would write this dreck and any self respecting fan would believe it. If I had been interviewing him and he said that to me I would have said “Well you might want to get that checked out mate, now can you answer me this, you said if your CVA was rejected the club would lose it’s history and now you are saying the complete opposite what changed?” Everyone who has been warning them they are walking towards a cliff is labelled a hater or part of the cabal who is out to destroy them, It’s probably just Darwins natural selection running it’s course. Still they might be more prone to listen if everyone warning them wasn’t having a right good laugh at their expense whilst pointing at them. If the worst happens and Chuckles takes off in the middle of the night with everything that hasn’t been nailed down, will the story be spun in the positive or the negative? With newco it’s hard to tell anymore.
Joe:
Darwin’s Theory worked.
Natural selection took it’s course & the creature that was RFC(IL) was unable to adapt & survive & thus it died….. But,
A modern technique was applied, similar to Test Tube baby science by The SFA/SPL/SFL & a new entity was created & renamed as closely as possible to the original creature which had become extinct. It was accepted by the herd.
The next problem for those interested in the survival of the species is this, such artificial creations are often seedless & nicknamed “Jaffas”, they die out,
Other creations find it difficult to change or adapt & continue to cling to the ways which lead to the original extinction. Help is needed on an ongoing basis to avoid a repitition… Have the Teddy Bears turned into Pandas?.
Luvin’ it!
Wasn’t all the talk originally of a £30m flotation?
Also, how would I go about buying a single share in The Rangers? I just need the one with a certificate or something. Is it even possible to buy just the one?
70p on aim, but £5 to buy it.
The original talk was of raising 20m
If you Google “Charles Green £30 million” you get plenty of hits. He said – when he thought he would be getting Rangers via a CVA – “By the end of July, we will have £30m-plus in the bank from the share issue.”
That must be what I remembered.
Open an account with a stockbroker, prove your ID, add some funds, then hit the ‘buy’ button. Very easy. I just bought some Celtic shares after reading this blog made me think about it. An emotional investment.
Some people think Ticketus are behind these investors but why would they put in an extra 17 million? If however they were fund managers and (original) Rangers fans or with links to Green or indeed Ticketus or Zeus they could easily invest other peoples money. £3 mill was loaned from a pension fund to the old Rangers before the club was liquidated and are now one of the creditors. Not such a stretch of the imagination then. They should be investigated. The whole thing still as murky as ever.
Or put another way:
“I’m gutted at the success…lets flush out some of the old theories, roll them around together and see what new ones we can come up with to justify our hopes and dreams for the failure of this flotation crashing so badly.”
Ticketus invest funds (advanced season ticket money),… so maybe they now doubling up to get £22 they lost back……. as they would have advanced this for season ticket money this year anyway….
now if green right and they bought at say 30p they could recoup ?
Also if they a tax avoidance scheme, making loss is not a problem.
Ticketsus did not advance money, they bought season tickets.
And they would not have been advancing anything this year…they bought those season tickets last year…that’s how Whyte paid Lloyds. Remember?
Or do we need to forget that to furnish a new theory?
ticketus put in investment, and get payment each season first xxx season tickets for a number of seasons….. this is like advancing money. rumours ticketus scheme is like tax avoidance schemes for thier investors.
whyte used last years investment, but tickets could invest each year in number of clubs, so they could invest in ipo, as a way……..
They bought the season tickets up fron for several years to come.
It really is that simple!
It wasn’t an advance..it wasn’t an investment. They bought season tickets.
Even Ticketus were very straightforward on this.
In fact so was this board for some time….well until recently when events didn’t go as planned and the posters here were looking for a new angle
@iain “It wasn’t an advance..it wasn’t an investment”
But it was before the seasons (so advanced payment) and they paid for xxx season tickets (and if more sold they get the additional revene) so that is an investment… ?
Simples (click).
Why make non-factual statements ?
Iain
Please read my post or better still that by Michael. I hope you feel that we are not just rolling out the same old theories. If you want something that is unbiased and yes, a bit speculative, my post and Michael’s are the sort of contributions this site should be about, I believe.
Let’s hope for a 2 tier SPL set up next season. After that Green will have nowhere to take Sevco.
Den
To coin a well known football commentator and his nemesis.
“Whit a load o’ pish”!!!!!
Find something else to speculate on.
You lot have wrong about every prediction so far!!
Never mind about us we will survive and prosper.
Survive? You already died, what you lot are living now is more akin to identity theft than prospering. If it was pish you lot what believe it because that is what you have been getting fed for years.
In Minty we trust
In Craigy we trust
In Ally we trust
In Charlie we trust
You dont half trust one load of pish.
Change the record will ye.
Dont be worrying about us we will be here without you lot.
Suggest ye keep aw yer bile and bigotry tae yersel.
@Clarkeng
For fuck sake. Go and look up bile and bigotry in a dictionary before suggesting what someone has written is full of it.
@COYBIG
Couldn’t have put it better myself – only a few short posts ago that was the same pish he was spouting about me.
Seems our Clarkeng takes any sort of comment about or criticism of his club personally…
Waowa! Wrong about administration? Wrong about liquidation? Wrong about The Big Tax Case? (not yet, my friend). Wrong about the share flotation? We didn’t get that one wrong, you, the people who didn’t invest, got that wrong, because, as usual, just as you blame all and sundry for your club’s death, you now look to shirk responsibility for havingnnot invested in the club you ‘love’. Shame on you, and those who kept their hands in their pockets. The best fans in the world? Not our verdict, but UEAFA/FIFA s. And how did we prove it? By having the best football share issue of all time. And that is a fact—though not reported by MSM at the time. So fkcu you. Choke on the facts if you will.
Clarkeng
It may be a load o’ whatever.
I will continue to post on here until the subject no longer interests me or god forbid most of the posters are as rude as you.
Den
I suppose we will have to wait for the 1st years accounts, but which companie’s accounts will they be? The latest or the 1st? Will there be mention of the ‘no external debt’.Talk of £30m warchests is just sooo unbelievable but it doesn’t even get questioned, all we get is ‘ally going to be cautious with his £10M’. The ridiculous claims are lapped up by most rangers fans-you would think they would have learned by now. Propaganda and lies seem to be the order of the day now and that’s without jabba yet. How are the rest of the Scottish clubs supposed to trust anything that emanates from ibrox after the past 9 months or so?
Why are the institutions in? As was suggested over on TSFM, they are possibly “shorting”, which reverses the normal buy/sell transaction. If it’s thought the price will drop, the deal is struck to sell at the current price and buy at an agreed future date at the then price. So how many of those shares recorded as sold, have simply been “borrowed”, in the shorting process?
I think this means that when the sell-off begins, these institutions will simply hoover up all the loose cash lying around including the £2 to £5 mil. contributed by supporters’ groups. I would not be at all happy if my pension institution was involved in this perfectly legal but very unpleasant way of boosting funds, and fund managers’ ratings and bonuses, while beggaring other pensioners’ funds.
Who’s shorting? The institutional investors bought 17m worth of shares. That’s a fact. In short selling you borrow the shares and sell them.
Don’t let facts get in the way of another theory to justify the success of the flotation
@iain
So selling of a large percentage of your business and any future dividend is what you consider a success? Not to mention the fact that fans only bought 50% of the shares offered to them.
If Charlie came out and said it was a dissapointing IPO, i’m guessing so would you. That’s how this game works ain’t it? Follow Follow the Leader.
If you read what I said, I asked how many of the shares had been “borrowed” in the shorting process.
Do you know for a fact that the £17m was all cash up front sales?
Thats what a flotation is.
A stock can be shorted on listing. I think that would send cash in the opposite direction. I’m not all that bothered. Maybe you should be asking the questions of those with the inside information?
It can be shorted but it still requires a buyer on the other side. The 17m has gone to RIFC, That’s a fact. A short sale wouldn’t have any effect on cash flow going into or out of RIFC.
Example:
1. Investor A buys 1000 RIFC IPO shares @70p for 700 pounds
2. Investor B borrows 500 shares from Investor A and sells @75p them for 375 pounds, with an agreement to return them to Investor A under set terms (e.g. a set time, price reaches a certain level, Investor A can demand them returned etc.) and some interest on top. This is shorting.
3. 1 month later Investor B buys the 500 shares back @60p for 300 pounds and returns them to Investor A with the interest
RIFC make 700 pounds from the IPO sale
Investor A still has the 1000 shares with added interest
Investor B makes a profit of 75 pounds minus interest
Investor B’s actions have no effect on RIFC cash flow. Institutional investors have BOUGHT 17m worth of RIFC shares.
willmacufree:
I read your posts & also an earlier poster on the Ticketus mystery.
By shorting do you mean that the parties involved “pledge” for an amount of shares but don’t have to pay upfront & the difference in price when they sell pays outstanding debts & possible inherited or future problems with ticketus etc?
Is it also possible for an “institution” to be representing a client rather than the main Fund?
@moctical
Well they wouldn’t be able to sell right now even if they wanted to as they are locked in for 6 months/1 year.
That is another point which baffles me, the lack of clarity of the actual share price,Were some sold at 35p?. Did Mr Green Pay 1p per share as I have read somewhere, what did Mr McCoist pay for his first lot?
Do the pledges for shares mean delayed payment? Is this the reason for the institutions & others being tied in? Cheaper shares, retained give stability to the club as the price stays stable,Most Fans won’t sell, those tied in can’t sell., so the issue price is maintained or increases.
If they paid the full price why is there a tie in how could one be enforced?
If they received preferential treatment or cheaper shares, is that allowed?
If the biggest component of the Share uptake consists of delayed payment pledges, how much money was actually raised in real terms?
So many questions yet the MSM do not seem interested in asking any of them.
The lock up period will only apply to those owning shares before the IPO and company insiders. There’s shouldn’t be any restriction on short-selling from new investors
Hi everyone, I’ve been too busy to post the last couple of days but I caught up this morning and posted earlier. However 2 new blogs have gone up in the meantime.
So, just to repeat what I said earlier, I’m off to exotic climes today for a couple of weeks and I would just like to take this opportunity to wish Paul and all the regular posters a merry Christmas and best wishes for the new year.
I only picked up on this blog earlier this year and have found it interesting, entertaining and educational. Long may it continue.
I’m looking forward to buying Paul’s book, if it is still in the pipeline. I hope he gets some material payback for all the effort that he puts into the blog.
Hopefully then…..in the spirit of this blog….he could pay back his own creditors?
spill who owes who ?
iain, Were you born an a*se or did bad company turn you into the one you are?
Now now.
How many times do we see on here posters demanding that Rangers should pay up oldcos debts? Apparently that would be the right thing to do. Apparently that would be the moral thing to do.
I simply replied to a post saying it would be great if our host managed to make cash on the back of the Rangers saga then the same morals be applied to him, and he paid his creditors off…or those poor pensioners…or both.
Why the double standards?
Thanks Iain.
There is no double standard. The situations are not comparable. And you are factually incorrect.
Paul
What facts did I get wrong?
I didn’t even notice me making any statements of fact
Oh dear it is all going so well…lol
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aberdeen-are-a-club-that-is-down-in-the-dumps-following-1499274
Stop feeding the trolls, please.
You know it makes sense and you know who they are.
Yes we do.
Anyone who doesn’t tow the part line or questions some of the more fanciful theories spouted.
@iain
No. He’s talking about the ones that live under bridges.
@COYBIG
Do you think he meant “TOE the party line”? Cos what he’s written means more or less the exact opposite.
Pesky typos; probably the Unseen Fenian hand at work on the keyboard
On the success or otherwise Post Flotation.
I would reserve judgement – there isn’t really a market yet.
Only a small proportion of the shares have been bought and sold – not enough IMO to be making judgements on trends etc. If a plot of share price was to be made of similar floats that have ended up going doonthepan, it would be characterised by a smallish increase for a shortish period, then a nosedive.
Have a look at Mr Green’s previous … I wouldn’t rule out Rangers climbing back to ‘where they belong’ (eh?), but I see it as more likely (likely!) that it will all end in tears. I’m not sure about precisely how or when this might happen. I dont want to venture much on those details.
I have a small side bet with a friend who is a Gers fan that Mr Green wont be in charge by the end of this season. If he’s off after dropping into Admin again, then poor show, but if he’s left and left Rangers as healthy as could be expected, then all the better. He might still be there!
to put this to bed, rangers will still be a selling club, to appease the share holders not the fans, just now they have 3 years to get there act together
getting back to the top division without out side help, is going to be hard enough to achieve, can they achieve this i don’t think so.
Lord Mac,
What have Rangers left to sell that could produce an ongoing income better than their expenditure?
They have a couple of decent young lads coming through, but they need More, not to sell those they have..
If they are set on going back to their previous failed model then the SFA/SFL will be in full time employment saving them yet again & again.
No matter what the fans want to believe, the overhead is way too high & Green & Others salaries & bonuses have just added another layer..
So the assumption is that the whole of the placing was paid in cash?
Dear Mr Traynor,
I am 59 years old. Some of my little friends say there is no Rangers Football Club. Papa says, “If you see it in The Record, it’s so.” Please tell me the truth, is there a Rangers?
Charles Green
Charlie, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the scepticism of a sceptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Charlie, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this great universe of ours, a non-Rangers man is a mere insect, a tax paying ant in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the mainstream media spin capable of reconstructing the whole of truth and knowledge.
Yes, Charlie, there is a Rangers Football Club. It exists as certainly as dupery and duplicity and deception exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its greatest potential for making money out of the misery of others. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Rangers! It would be as dreary as if there were no sashes like the one your father wore. There would be no childlike faith then, no Pope in Rome, no annual marches in the West Coast of Scotland to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal blight with which sectarian chanting fills our football stadiums would be extinguished.
Not believe in Rangers! You might as well not believe in the rule of law. You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if you did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that’s no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.
You may tear apart the baby’s rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart. Only delusion, bigotry, hatred and a general feeling of superiority can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Charlie Boy, in all this world there is nothing else as real and abiding.
No Rangers! Thank Messrs Reagan and Doncaster that they live and they live forever. A hundered and forty years from now, Charlie, nay 10 times 140,000 years from now, Rangers will continue to darken the heart of Scottish Football and yet, for some peculiar reason the supporters of diddy clubs remain ungrateful.
Merry Christmas Everybody.
I think that little diatribe comes under the heading”sweeping generalisations that aren’t particularily helpful”
Just another pathetic attempt to portray everything and everybody RFC as hate filled bigots,,,and at Xmas too!
Don’t let yourself stew in that marinade for too long as it becomes difficult to wash it off.
How long exactly? Not being a Rangers fan I’m unfamiliar with the experience of stewing in a hate filled marinade of bigotry! The bottom line is this: if you want the history you pay the bills. It really is that simple. How players and officials can strut around with the old Rangers crest on their shirts, and worse still, five stars above it, is beyond belief and common decency. It is about time those in authority at the SFA, UEFA and FIFA put a stop to the charade and if they did I will be among the first to welcome the new Rangers every success. Until they do then decent people will continue to regard them in a negative light – whether it’s Christmas or not. I hope the weather is nice in Elgin on Saturday.
We’ll make our way up to Elgin whatever the weather and if we take the train we’ll try to make sure we are herded politely into the carriages containing the “non decent people”.
When a wee five year old wakes up to his Gers top and Gers dvd’s on Xmas,maybe you could view the look of joy in their eyes as something sinister.
You have yourself a love filled Xmas now,,,,bye.
Cam
Good evening, the milk of human kindness has returned to me. Micheal and I along with others have been discussing matters in, I hope, a convivial tone. Your comments would be welcome.
Where are the five stars these days?
On the away shirt and shorts, the third kit shirt and shorts, training kit, new ‘140 year anniversary (?)’ home shirt, polo shirts, shower jackets…
and Cam, you are right in what you say regards the wee five year old and I hope every young Ranger has a look of joy in their eyes if they receive a kit for Christmas and the same goes to any young supporter of any club but if you want the history then do the decent thing and pay the bills.
still on show, regrettably. signifying ten questionable titles on each of five occaisions.
another team from glasgow displays a single star, recognising the first british club to become champions of europe.
I’m getting old and forgetful, I lose things.
Just yesterday I lost my car keys. After ten minutes of frantic searching my wife calmly pointed to the kitchen table and said ‘there they are, just where you left them’. Suitably chastened I left for work.
It gets worse, today I lost my history.
I looked in all the usual places, under the bed and in that cupboard under the sink but I couldn’t find it.
Finally I climbed into the loft, I keep a lot of old stuff there so it made sense, history if nothing else is old.
Opening boxes and crates I searched in vain, I found a lot of interesting stuff though, old pictures and artifacts that stirred memories of the very history I was looking for. The actual history, the tangible thing I was searching for remained elusive.
It got me thinking, did I really put my history in a box. Could I have put my history in a box? If I had I may have inadvertently given that box to a charity shop or in a clear out taken it to the local tip. This at least would explain the loss.
What a disaster!
What would I be without my History.
At this point I had a thought (rare for me) I decided to consult my books in the hope of finding an answer. I have many books though not so many books on history or so I thought.
Searching the shelves for clues as to the whereabouts of my history something occurred to me. The closer I looked at the old familiar titles and well worn pages I realized that all my books were historical. Containing as they do thoughts and ideas that occurred in the past. Sometimes the near past, and sometimes ages old. The thought gave rise to another. Perhaps history was is not so tangible after all. Maybe I would never actually put my hands on it.
I knew then where my history was, It was locked in my brain the whole time. Sometimes not fully accessible but caught nevertheless in sights and smells and half remembered words. Moments of tedium are stored in the same place as moments of great joy and terrible grief.
History can’t be taken away or lost. It can’t be put in a box and sold.
Rules and laws simply don’t apply.
History is for want of a better word…history.
I agree with everything you say. Your history is in your head. It can’t be taken away or lost. It can’t be put in a box and sold. It simply dies when you make your way to the great liquidator in the sky or in other words, when you become, for want of a better word…history 🙂
It’s a good comeback Jon. But history as long as there are those to read and talk and remember it, lives on in books or memories shared.
Perhaps my history will end when I die, but some may remember it, if only for a short time.
Martin,…,So what EXACTLY did Charlie Green claim he bought?
He has no Memory of titles won… Tainted or not…. He has no sense of the smell of Bullsh*t which surrounded the “Honest Mistakes” excuses, time after time in the MSM,
What about the distaste the rest of the teams supporters felt when the SFA/SPL/SFL ALL combined to break, bend or ignore any Rule they had to to ensure that Charlie could buy your History?,
The sight & sound of the “neutral” commentators, like Daryll, Jabba & Chick, turning Somersaults to convince themselves & the likes of you that it is all OK… THEY can’t take away OUR history… It’s in our minds,…That’s OK too. There are places full of Hitlers,, Napoleons & Greta Garbo’s… It’s all in their minds as well..
Charlie Green admits His Team was never in the SPL to win them so why has he any claim to them, Tainted or not?
they don’t exist for him in your explanation of history & they don’t exist in Fact in his.
Thanks for That. post, it passed a wee while while I wait on my plane.
Martin,
History is written by the winners :o)
Ah but the losers can write, and sing, being Scottish I know this well.
So can the Irish.
Now that Charles “pinch of salt” is £5m short of target should he not be calling off his dufc boycott in the interests of his new shareholders and maximising revenue from the game.
OK lets forget about all the snyde comments, the banter, the jokes, the theorys, the arguing etc. etc. etc. Let’s forget about it all, for one post each at least, and I guess i’ll start:
MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY!
AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Coybig,
I thank you and gratefully accept the good will, and rejoice in the sentiment of your glad tidings for all. might I as a ‘filthy animal’
wish you all the best for the holiday season and the year ahead.
@Martin
I didn’t post that to suggest that anyone is a ‘filthy animal’. I was watching Home Alone a few nights ago and that bit where he plays that film when the Pizza delivery guy knocks that door was in my head.
Coybig,
alas it was not in my head, though I’m sure it’s a fine film.
I hope it’s Just a misunderstanding.
@Martin
What’s just a misunderstanding? That you read this post:
“OK lets forget about all the snyde comments, the banter, the jokes, the theorys, the arguing etc. etc. etc. Let’s forget about it all, for one post each at least, and I guess i’ll start:”
And jump to the conclusion that I am somehow calling you a ‘filthy animal’?
I think that says a lot about the way you think of yourself. Don’t be so bad on yourself. You’re not a ‘filthy animal’ your a human being. I don’t know what your personal hygiene is like so I can’t say whether you’re a ‘filthy’ human being or not. But you’re absolutely not an animal. Merry Christmas!
Course it is Martin…. Your head is full of… History… of things Gone… but remembered.. like RFC(IL)…Don’t worry…Be happy… Charlie OWNS its History now …He bought it…. You all better think thoughts he agrees with now, when you think thoughts of RFC(IL)… Jeezo he owns your thoughts your memory of His History.. bet the bugger copy writes it too..
If It is all in the mind, when he renames Ibrox… it will still be Ibrox you know… All that history in your head says it’s Ibrox ….. F*ck the SatNav .what does it know about history?.
Coybig,
It’s what comes after ‘ I guess i’ll start’ in your original post that creates the misunderstanding and introduces the idea of ‘filthy animal’.
Don’t worry about how I view myself. I consider myself in evolutionary terms to have developed from a ‘ filthy animal’ to a ‘filthy animal’ with clothes, a phone and internet access.
I’m glad that as a human being you feel unable to judge me ‘filthy’ or otherwise. I’ll sleep easy in my bed knowing that with a shower in the morning I might pass the personal hygiene test. Such as it is.
@Martin
I think you need to go back to school, or rather stop skipping school by the looks of it.
You’ve took what i’ve wrote and come a contrived conclusion that you’ve somehow been targeted. You haven’t. The clip is a scene from Home Alone, one of the biggest family movies ever. And you, for some reason, think it’s about you? That would be funny, if it wasn’t so sad.
I said I didn’t know whether you are a ‘filthy’ human or not as a fucking joke. So make sure you add “sense of humour” to the list before you send it to Santa. Because you’re clearly in need of one. That and a chip to put on your shoulder to balance out the one on your other shoulder. Merry Christmas!
COYBIG; Oh No.. don’t Do THAT…
A sense of humour to add to a sense of History…. You will create a Monster….A Martin Monster …worrying about Charlie changing his Historical memories of bygone days of Yore,
Worrying about the smell…Oh No… again.. Is the smell personal hygiene or the whiff of Tainted Titles..He has a sense of humour but so does Charlie Green, martin monster listened to Jabba & Believed… Charlie Employed him… is that a meeting of minds …a historical moment even?
In days to come when Martin monster is running amok with all those senses in disarray… You, will feel guilty COYBIG..
You Will…. It was trying to introduce poor Martin to humour wot done it.
Lot of bad feeling is that normal.
sorry for raising this again but could some of you more knowledgeable types on here, including rangers fans, please tell me that for rangers to have been paid twice for the same STs for 3 years is normal trading practice? or do I hear rangers saying ah but one payment was to the old club/company and the latest payment is to the new club/company and never the twain shall meet….
@p groom
The Rangers have been paid twice for the same STs for 3 years? That’s news to me.
coybig . have just left you a reply but it has vanished into the ether at the moment.
coybig re rangers paid twice for STs. I’ll try again. ticketus paid rangers in advance during the CW era for three seasons worth of STs worth around £30M. rangers spent it on £18M to Lloyds bank and the remainder on running the club. the deal was that rangers would repay ticketus as STs were sold. there has been no mention of this happening since selling started. green has made much of how vital the ST income has been/is/will be. lord hodge has set aside the ticketus agreement. in the absence of repaying ticketus this season and the next two, rangers will have been paid twice. doesnt sound fair to me and nor to the small creditors either.
The old company was paid and went bust. The new one can sell tickets because it is a different legal ‘person’. It is far from normal, other than in cases of insolvency. If for example you pay a company for a car and they go bust before you take posession you can ask for your money back but have no chance of getting it. You then need to pay somebody else to buy a car. You may – if you are particularly devoted to the salesman in question – engage the same Salesman working for a new company in the same building selling exactly the same car. You would likey be justifiably scunnered about having to do so however.
robertg, belated merry christmas…but rangers supporters so at pains to tell us that they are the same club seem to have no qualms about ripping off ticketus and the other creditors. their attitude seems to be “tough get over it.” and they wonder why so many of us think they deserve everything coming to them in the form of the hmrc appeal, the enquiry into dual contracts etc etc.
this is a good run down of all the scallys in the share issue
http://thedemiseofrangersinpictures.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/ticketus-increase-shareholding-in-newco.html
@lord mac
I have to be honest and say I don’t see the logic of Ticketus buying shares in The Rangers, therefore I don’t think they bought shares. They might still be in the background getting payments hence why their claim against Whyte has gone silent. But I don’t think they would invest/give more money.
personally it would not surprise me, if the funds came from 1 or 2 places
1 from the launderettes ! or from 2 from a charity ?shop group.
COYBIG:
Could it be due to, not NEW Investment by Ticketus,but Pledged Shares at a discounted price & a lengthy tie in to make the Established Share price paid by ordinary punters, stay steady for the period of the tie in?
If very few shares go on the market, there is little fluctuation in the price & the share becomes solid, maybe even desirable, if any come on the market….this would suit both Charlies investors & Octopus & may even increase the share price..
Remember, Ticketus is just a Name for an Octopus entity & what’s in a name?.. call it a Rose or Keech… it still smells the same..
Sir D M & Lloyd’s sold RFC for £1, Whyte & his variants,people with Duff & Phelps tie ins, connected to them both, then became involved, .
Go back to Octopus, Rangers owe Octopus through the Ticketus arrangement, this has not gone away.yet is not being pursued as a singular transaction.. Why?.
Octopus are now a Big Player in Charlies Share Issue through several Investors,. So if they ALL are Tied In you have to ask what is the reason & outcome?
In a recession where it could dip again, why tie in to a FOOTBALL SHARE… worse still, why a 4th level Scottish Football share? Why a Club with the bad fan connection RFC(IL) had?.
Charlie says Nobody will own more than 10% & is lauded for it.. But right away that creates an alarm bell.. In a Free Market , how can you dictate who owns what?
That leads to the tie ins… Why would you agree to any tie in if you paid the market price? This story will unfold & Octopus won’t be the losers.
this seems to be more convincing
http://thedemiseofrangersinpictures.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-min=2012-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2013-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=14
History or ‘His Story!’, is the story according to him. Historians and analysts argued over whether the Mayans predicted that the world would end today. They fact is, the world has not ended!
Rangers FC fans will have a story or two to tell about the 139 year history of their club and they will reminisce and boast to their grandchildren. Football fans of all creeds and colours will argue about whether or not Rangers FC died or still exists.
On the other hand, what do the fans of The Rangers FC fans have to remember and boast about, six months is such a short time in history.
Fans will tell the story of Rangers FC in whatever way they want to remember the story, but facts are facts and should not be changed.
The fact is that there is no Rangers FC in Scottish football, they have been replaced by The Rangers FC who joined the Scottish football league as Associate Members at the start of the 2012/2103 season and play their football in Division 3.
It seems to me that Celtic supporters are keeping Celtic out of the news .
No Bill, The MSM are.
Headlines today on the BBC page are about Hearts & their problems.
No mention of Celtic & Euro football.
Other pages talk about a great share Issue for a 3rd Division Club which raised £22m… NO mention of the £30m Celtic can win in Europe.
I never read much about the money Celtic Earned for the other SPL Clubs through their Euro endeavours.. BUT..I read a LOT about the Armageddon which would happen if RFC(IL) were not allowed to start over in the SPL.
It actually seems like the MSM don’t want to report GOOD News about Celtic but report any crap about Sevco efforts for survival..
So we comment on whats on offer..
Mind you we don’t mind, it has been worth a laugh …
Ian
step back from any paraoid thinking and see the world as the MSM sees it :
they report current news – i.e. Celtic is so last week, while Rangers is this week. Hearts are now. The Rangers armageddon is past, present and future for Scottish football, so it is likely to be reported more.
Don’t allow paranoia to blind your non-msm eyes.
See what is written and judge for yourself, I don’t see why we should judge what has not been written, unless that is the story
Rocky, That is Nonsense.
Yesterday the Premier League page led with the Most current & Biggest story… Their teams & who they drew in Europe.
The SPL page led with Hearts problems & Celtic in Europe did not get a mention, Not Paranoia, just simple facts.
As a matter of interest I checked other countries to see their take on it & ALL led with Europe…. EXCEPT Scotland.
Mind you, I remember one SportsEeditor on SSB saying they print what their readers want to read.
Now why would Scots not want to read the GOOD News story of Celtic in Europe?.
Would you not be better taking this outrage to one of the fitba sites like KDS or reporting it to your MSP?
Do you find with all this wet weather that it becomes increasingly difficult to keep the chips on your shoulder from getting too soggy?
Here we go again Cam,
Answer an anti Celtic comment with Facts… Back up the reply with more Facts & heyho it’s a chip on the shoulder.
Meanwhile the Followers of the Sevco Green machine wade in tirades of hate & threats against all & sundry ,with a wee boycott flung in for good measure..
Deny away Cam but if Any Scottish supporters have chips on their shoulders it is the ex RFC(IL) supporters who now follow Sevco aka THE Rangers…. It is a hatefest against the rest of Scottish Football.
Like I already stated, the Celtic Performances in Europe are Good News & should be reported as such with due prominence.
RIFC plc will now purchase The Rangers Football Club (previously Sevco Scotland Ltd). That company bought he assets of the failed Rangers Football Cub from the administrators.
Here is a question: how much will RIFC pay for The Rangers Football Club?
This is not a rhetorical question.
It’s a share exchange acquisition on a one to one basis – no money invlolved
Dear Mr Traynor
Do airdrieonians have a 134 yo history and a 0 and counting premier league title record?
Disappointed this morning when my daily read went a missing. Does anyone know if this garbage has been dumped forever?
Blog has been removed
Sorry, the blog at leggoland2.blogspot.com has been removed. This address is not available for new blogs.
Did you expect to see your blog here? See: ‘I can’t find my blog on the web, where is it?’
Jospeh,
I understand that it has re-appeared elsewhere, but with two years’ worth of posts having disappeared!
Please be aware however that the following – http://swivel-eyeddavieleggat.blogspot.co.uk/?m=1 – is merely some unkind soul attempting to parody the estemmed writer’s inimitable style.
Do enjoy
in moderation of course…lol
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidleggat-leggoland.blogspot.com%2F&ei=larVUISMGMi20QWM54GICw&usg=AFQjCNHC3TC2Oq1CsPa_udrx1XkRtam-DQ&sig2=9ZiOq5hf5GCB4RNdV15S9w&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.d2k
Why does no one analyse the figures included in the prospectus.Newco are following in the footsteps of oldco:spend money that you can’t afford.
Contrary to Chico’s comments that Newco has no debt and no borrowings,
Newco had £8million of debt,including £2 million due in taxes,at31st August,
and £1.5 million due in finance leases.
NEwco’s running costs were £5.5 million for 3 months including £3.5 million in salaries i.e £22 million annual running costs including £14 million salaries.
Season ticket income is £10million approx per. the prospectus.If we estimate other income at say£5million Newco’s annual income will be approx.£15 million. Newco’s losses for the first year would be between £7 and£10 million.
Newco’s share issue is needed to fund Newco’s working capital and running costs.If we ignore the statement about some of this money being used for transfer fees and assume that £10 million will be used for capital expenditure as stated in the prospectus approx£10 million woul be used for working capital.
£10 million pounds would fund approx.12 months of Newco losses.
Therefore,in approx.12 to 18 months Newco would have to raise other funds by perhaps renaming the stadium,or raising money by other means ie borrowings,debentures,or ,dare I say it,yet another share issue.
Bhody,
I personally welcome analysis of the figures. I fairness there has been some good analysis on other Posts.
The Lease obligation is Debt as much as money borrowed from any other source.
The SS and Tax is presumably deductions from wages which is due to be handed over to the Revenue in the short term. i suspect that the current regime will learn from Craig Whyte’s error and give unto Hector. Looks like ongoing business and in the context of all the other figures not excessive.
i am impressed that they have £2M of Trade Creditors, I would have thought most people would want cash up front. Once again ongoing business and not excessive.
In the sense that people are owed money then there is indeed debt, much of it looks current and cash balance along with new Capital injection should cover it. As with everything green says he is not precise and will contradict himself in the next sentence.
Your projections on annual trading point to the problem that I alluded to. There are no forecast figures. If tthey don’t seriously tackle the cost side of the equation then the money will disappear like snow of a dyke.
Also, if you take out the £55m asset revaluations the balance sheet looks distinctly weak.
The failure to provide forecasts is very unusual in a prospectus together with the fact that up to date accounts to at least October were not included.By examining their accounts at August and looking at their cash burn and losses it would be reasonable to estimate that Newco was fast running out of cash at the end of December.It is also apparent that there were cash flow difficulties prior to the end of August since several short term loans had been provided during that period.
Newco had to raise funds in December.
As long as Newco continues to spend what it does not earn it will have to go to the well to extract funds from other sources just like oldco.
You can only go to the well so often.Contrary to Chico’s comments that wages will be capped at1/3rd of income Iwould estimate that current wage represent almost 100 per cent of income.Annual income estimated at £15 million with annual wages at approx.£14 million.Chico still has a long way to go.
The failure of MSM to question Chico on any of his ridiculous comments mirrors the same way they treated Minty.
In the case of Chico to date,he must feel that in Scotland you can fool all of rapeople all of the time.
More Financial information would certainly have been welcome.
I would have expected that they would have wanted to show at least 6 months actual accounts and projections for some years ahead. Six months would have maybe reflected any progress in tackling the cost base which is out of line with the Third Division (even the SPL). Projections would have shown revenue opportunities but they weren’t provided.
Never mind, there are plenty twists and turns to come in this saga.
I think its been mentioned before that Chico “promised” a share offer in 2012 so time was running out. Its also been mentioned that in order to get out 6 months accounts in time to be included in the prospectus would be pushing it.
Plenty of analysis that Sevco would be running out of money by the end of 2012 so the more cynical believe that is why there was such a rush to fulfil Chico’s promise and why only 3 months accounts were provided.
As for projections. Would they have been worth the paper they were written on (back of an envelope probably)? Projections need at least some clarity on the strategy. Chico is already contradicting the strategy indicated in the prospectus as to how the money raised would be spent. I seriously doubt there is much of a long or even medium temr plan and the short term plan changes more often thatn the wind shifts direction.