Mark Daly Lands More Blows on Duff & Phelps – Alleged Mr Grier Tried to get Mr Whyte to Lie

Ouch.

Mark Daly’s latest on Duff & Phelps will have the New York office of that esteemed company hopping mad.

After the New York MD, Marty Dauer, responded to yesterday’s episode by saying that they did not comment on things out of context, today’s Reporting Scotland stated that Mr Whyte recorded a two-hour conversation between himself and Mr Grier of D&P. The implication is that this whole conversation is in the hands of the BBC.

That is a lot of “context” for D&P to consider!

Tonight’s allegation is that Mr Grier wanted Mr Whyte to make a statement confirming that D&P and its predecessor MCR had not been involved in the Ticketus deal, thus removing issues of conflict of interest. Mr Whyte seemed to be going along with this, suggesting that a story could be issued via Media House, the renowned PR company.

Indeed the next day a statement went to Mr Whyte to approve, confirming what D&P were asking him to, but he did not do so.

It would appear that Duff & Phelps have a number of areas where they could be vulnerable regarding this issue.

The Reports it issued regarding progress of the investigation and administration were statutorily required for Companies House and for the Court of Session.

In addition, Lord Hodge called for a specific report on the conflict of interest allegations.

The Insolvency Practitioners’ Association also investigated, and one assumes D&P responded to them too.

Mr Daly’s latest programme leads me to infer that the explanation offered to those bodies might not constitute the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

These are very complex issues, and it is understandable if the analysis thereof in D&P perhaps became confused, leading to unfortunately and inadvertently incorrect information being passed on.

It would of course be a serious professional matter for the parties involved if it was shown that there had been attempts deliberately to mislead the court, Companies House or the IPA.

As well as formal disciplinary action, anyone shown to have misled the court could face a criminal prosecution.

Even with instantaneous communications across the Atlantic, Duff & Phelps did not offer a comment in response to what was said tonight. One wonders if Mr Grier is on a plane to New York as we speak, so that the GE Sigma Six black belt, Marty Bauer, MD of Duff & Phelps New York, can get some explanation from his Scottish colleague for the ever-deepening mess surrounding the UK business D&P acquired last year.

Why would, if we accept the BBC premise, a respected practitioner like Mr Grier place his reputation at risk like this? Then, in considering the answer, we need only look at the fees charged by D&P for their 8 months involved. Millions of pounds will operate as a motive for a great many things. In addition, the D&P global website mentioned that its UK arm is dealing with the biggest insolvency in UK football history. The Rangers administration offered the chance for D&P to make its name prominent in the UK.

Between them, Mr Grier, Mr Whyte, Mr Whitehouse and Mr Clark have definitely succeeded in so doing!

 

Posted by Paul (yellow belt in Origami) McConville

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85 Comments

Filed under Administration, Craig Whyte's Companies, Insolvency, Rangers

85 responses to “Mark Daly Lands More Blows on Duff & Phelps – Alleged Mr Grier Tried to get Mr Whyte to Lie

  1. KG

    Paul, you questioned “Why would, if we accept the BBC premise, a respected practitioner like Mr Grier place his reputation at risk like this?”

    It’s a recurring theme that many of those with whom Whyte is or has been involved, act in such a manner.

    I’ve no doubt, as you say, that money is at the centre of much of it. And I’ve no doubt that Whyte “offers” riches to these individuals over and above their professional fees, if he suceeds and the game pans out the way he intends.

    • ecojon

      @ KG

      Well perhaps it has become like the Banking Sector where it is just an accepted practice and people don’t see anything unprofessional in it let alone illegal.

      Not of course that I am suggesting for a moment that anyone has carried out any criminal acts or acted unprofessionally. I am quite happy to leave the investigation of these matters to Strathpol, HMRC and professional as well as regulatory bodies.

  2. Budweiser

    @PAUL

    GE SIGMA SIX BLACK BELT -Marty Bauer. Sounds suspiciously like one of Cam’s alter egos. Do we have a doppelganger in our midst. We demand transparency! Come out, come out wherever you are!

  3. Von Schiehallion

    Class.

    At this rate, all Craig Whyte needs to do to clinch Sports Personality Of The Year is to turn up at the Court Of Session in a full Rangers strip. Shin pads should clinch it….

  4. martin c

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/craig-whyte-to-sue-duff-and-phelps-over-claims-they-were-supposed-to-give-rangers-back-to-him-1-2597705

    I’ve just saw this and wonder where will it end. Halloween will be interesting. Who’s kidding who?

    posted by martin c (black belt in mince; burgers, koftas, spagh bol, with tatties, chilli, cottage pie).

  5. Thomas

    My gob is smacked!
    Surely there is no tape of Minty suggesting Ticketus as a fall back position should Ally bellyflop in Europe?

  6. Al ross

    I reckon there could be a Craig Whyte’s Greatest Hits in the shops for Crimbo wonder will there be bonus tracks ?

  7. mick

    fantastic read of tonight events although a had to bruch up on the black belt lingo my mates a red dan at martial l arts so a googled it and low and behold its a business grade just shows you you learn something new every day heres a link for any1 like myself that my think its a sport level
    http://www.sixsigmatraining.org/101-things-a-black-belt-should-know

    also the bit that gripped me most is “Mr Daly’s latest programme leads me to infer that the explanation offered to those bodies might not constitute the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.”and am devo thinking charges and real serious 1s at that .

    • ecojon

      @ mick

      Seems to me you would be mad to be in high finance without a black belt especially when there’s wee guys wi steel balls like Craigie roaming about looking for Masters of the Universe to slay 🙂

    • ecojon

      @ JohnBhoy

      You are a very cruel man – have you never heard of letting bygones be bygones? 🙂

      However, IMHO experience it is always safer to trust your own instinct and judgement than to place blind faith in others especially when they purport to be a Leader.

    • Had to laugh at “Off-field issues have surrounded Rangers for some time but McCoist said that there are no concerns about the playing squad being distracted.”

      Zat no the excuse he used when they screwed the pooch last season?

  8. mick

    alex thomson ‏@alextomo

    #c4news Friday. Exclusive: senior Scottish QC spells out what real intimidation means and takes aim at Rangers manager Ally McCoist.

  9. ecojon

    The problem with this kind of clusterf*ck is no one can trust anyone else, although I accept there might well be no conspiracy in action. But how can punters sit down and admit what they said to Whyte going way back possibly to last year.

    And how can they actually remember exactly what they said. Now they know that wee Craigie may have taped them and might know exactly what they said. That means they will fall apart when PC Shiny Buttons comes a calling. They will be desperate to do deals to shift the blame and I suspect that the HMRC will be involved in a joint-operation with StrathPol.

    They have lots of experience of working together so there won’t be a problem setting it up as all the protocols already exist.

    Just think, their heids will be mince trying to remember every conversaton they had with him either face to face or on the phone. What secrets does he hold and when did he start taping.

    Craigie has gone way beyond trying to get money out of anyone – he’s looking for immunity from prosecution and some personal payback time for the way he feels he has been treated by everyone. Maybe he deserved it but what I don’t think he deserved was being treated like a piece of sh*t by someone who stitched him up and made sure the club didn’t go back to him.

    I think he’s been asking quite nicely for a pay-off and I don’t think he was that bothered where it came from. But he was laughed at, derided and scorned. Well we know who’s crying now and there will be a lot more of that to come.

    I’m sure there’s more goodies to come from Mark daly but the thermo-nuclear stuff that Craigie has will be held back. It won’t even be in this country because it is Craigie’s get outa jail card. But it will put a number of other people in jail and ruin professional careers.

    And hopefully there will be a return for the taxman and a little bit more for the ordinary creditors because let’s always remember these are the innocent victims who were stiffed by the spivs.

    As to Rangers I think it is far too soon to determine what will happens there as the imponderables are too great to work out at this time. But I find it difficult to see how the flotation can go ahed and I think IMHO that Green may announce a delay rather than run the risk of the AIM Market doing so.

    His timetable was always tight and I can’t see D&P US even considering trying to sit this out. They will clean the stables to show that they will not tolerate what has been alleged and within days this will be huge international and City of London news – not necessarily in the public eye but among the movers and shakers who count in this field.

  10. COYBIG

    RE the 2nd recording:

    If you refresh the page it’s on, an extra 7 seconds are added to the recording. In which Craig Whyte says something very profound, in response to Mr Grier’s suggestions.

    The extra 7 seconds of the 2nd recording, is in the video below:

  11. mick

    from the huddle board

    David Grier is the mastermind behind all of this.

    MIH (Murrays company) used the Bank of Scotland as a source of easily obtainable money for years and when Murray buys the huns, the BOS throw money at them as well. David Grier at that time was an employee of BOS. Murray runs the huns almost into the ground at the same time as MIH is in a similar position. BOS is eventually bought over by Lloyds who immediately stop the free flowing cash to Murrays companies and football club. And they want their money back. Murray faces ruin and has nowhere to go. Whilst he can cover up the MIH stuff from the public, the very well publicised RFC means he will be exposed as a charlatan and as a crook. The EBT investigation by HMRC means he is in a corner and surrounded.

    So this is where David Grier comes into play. Murray needs to get rid of the huns and at the same time use his compliant and obediant Scottish media to pin the blame of the huns demise on a new owner. So he needs someone who is an asset stripper, hard faced and shameless and glaiket when it comes to the fact he is just a sacrificial lamb to the slaughter. A relatively small time spiv who cannot resist the chance of a shot at a big time scam, Craig Whyte. Who is involved in the takeover between Whyte and Murray? David Grier of course. So Whyte takes over and as part of the deal Ticketus are taken for a ride in order to rid RFC of £18million of debt. David Grier is involved in the Ticketus deal as well. Whyte knows the score and that is that he, Murray and Grier all need the huns to go into administration and liquidation in order to make money, get rid of the toxic debt and lessen the EBT scandal as the focus will be on no more RFC as opposed to the tainted trophy haul it funded.

    It is clear that there is a link between David Grier and the following:

    David Murray
    Craig Whyte
    Ticketus
    Duff & Phelps

    Now that Griers company has been bought over by Duff and Phelps he can arrange payment for all of his work to date by his company being paid for the administration. Whyte goes to court and ensures that D&P are made his Administrators. Whyte has no idea he is being used as a patsy as opposed to an associate. The BBC emails from last night show that Whyte wanted a capped fee of a maximum half a million pounds admin fee and it was to be a quick process and involved OldCo/NewCo scenario when CVA was bounded by HMRC.

    That shows up a few interesting revelations:

    1. D&P had no intention of a quick admininstration and were looking to draw it out to get as big a fee as possible, therefore a capped half a million is now running at £5.5 million pounds. Therefore Whyte is not the shrewd crook we thought, he is being shafted royally by David Grier.
    2. Whyte got rid of the Lloyds debt , therefore saved the huns £18million but he is liable for that Ticketus debt and it appears he has not tied it to the stadium but in personal liabilities. Therefore Whyte is not the shrewd crook we thought, he is being shafted by David Grier.
    3. The OldCo/NewCo scenario was first floated publically by the Bill Miller preffered bid. Again this is D&P playing games and in the emails last night it was proven they had this plan at the very beginning of admin. Bill Miller was simply someone who was paid a fee for his name to be used to make out there was another group interested and for him, as opposed to Whyte or D&P, for coming up with the liquidation (and loss of history) of the huns.

    Green was nowhere to be seen in all of this until the point when the Miller scenario was completed, the huns had swallowed the NewCo replacement for the word liquidation. He came from nowhere to being the preffered bigger in less than a week? Clearly D&P had him lined up at the start and the one irritation they had was the Blue Knights. Bill Miller and Bill Ng were just people paid to front supposed bids and to make out there was a demand and interest in buying Rangers. Clearly the plan all along was for Grier to rid Murray of the huns, set up Craig Whyte as the patsy to take all of the shampoo to protect Murray, use Miller/Ng as a smokescreen for Green to come in and make his play for earning money out of this swindle.

    Green is due to get his £8.3million offer back by 2020 in a leveraged buy out. He is due to make £4million personally as “incentivisation” to make the deal happen. Green previously worked in Singapore, the same country who was also providing some of his supposed 20 backers and also where Bill Ng comes from and where his supposed bid was based. David Grier linked to Green via D&P and then in turn Green linked to Bill Ng.

    Green will spend £200,000 and loan (not pay) £8.3 million (which in turn provides interest accrued) in order to get access to over £100 million worth of assets. A failed CVA, and it was written to fail, means he only pays £5.5 million, co-incidentally D&Ps current fee. The huns will as a result lose over £200 million worth of debt (£134 million admin day level of potential debt, £18million ticketus scammed to pay off Llyods debt, £50 million transferred from RFC to MIH and written off by Lloyds from the failed RFC share issue years back).

    The huns are really being taken for a ride by Murray and his shady agent David Greir. In fact the following people are being made to lool like complete idiots by Grier/D&P:

    1. RFC supporters
    2. Craig Whyte
    3. Insolvency Practitioners Association
    4. Scottish Media (Daly as the exception)
    5. HMRC
    6. Ticketus
    7. The SPL
    8. The SFA
    9. The Police

    All of the above, with the exception of 1 and 2 obviously, should be ashamed at the lack of proper investigation into the scam that is being played out in front of their very eyes.

    • ecojon

      @ mick

      I have to say that I didn’t know about the connection of Grier with BoS and in a sense that shows why he was so relaxed with Whyte even so late in the day that he would talk as freely as he did.

      I don’t actually have any doubts about Whyte’s evidence but knowing this does take a nagging worry away. Whyte could have been getting assurances that he was still going to get a wedge even though he wasn’t getting the club back.

      I am now positive that he has been taping for some time and there is more than Grier in the loop so to speak.

      On another note I wonder how many editors are dragging out the exes of useless journos for the past year – they will be full of succulent lamb meal receipts from pleasant restaurants with ‘confidential contacts’ re the Rangers story with no name supplied.

      I can hear the screaming editors, who are under pressure from falling sales anyway, doing their nut demanding to know who these useless contacts were and how wee Daly got the story for free by threatening Whytie wi an Ibrox pie.

    • mick

      @ecojon what a responce to the huddle board post griers murrys mate is well grabbing every1s attention after hereing that it kind of makes you think and there was him visting murry throw the process its a wekly can of worms spilled on the floor this story

  12. My bet is that Grier is done now, and that D&P will cut him loose.
    As others have said above, Whyte has a remarkable corrosive effect on the integrity of the professional people he meets. When push comes to shove though – as Grier has just found out – Whyte is better at the game than they are.

    I doubt there is evidence of an over-arching conspiracy here. More likely Grier thought he technically did not have “visibility” (to use a D&P-ism) of the Ticketus deal, and could get away with turning a blind eye to it. It’s interesting Grier says “we probably did know what was going on with Ticketus”, for example – I think it suggests him having sufficient information to be aware of the deal, rather than actually having it expressly discussed with him.

    Looks like Daly’s 2nd documentary spooked him sufficiently to try to cover things up, and he made the fatal error of attempting to get Whyte onside for this.

    • ecojon

      @ duplesis

      I think the problem for D&P is perception as it will be hard for people to accept Grier acted alone, especially with the previous BoS background. But it will probably boil down to whether Craigy has tapes of conversations with other players in the saga.

      I just find it almost incomprehensible that Craigy sat there while Grier phoned Ramsey Smith and of course there was a previous connection with Media House and Murray if my memory serves me correctly as well as Rangers pre-Craigie.

      It looks very very bleak and if people have broken the law then they will face the music and hopefully there will be some cash raised for creditors.

      But we are then left with the future of Rangers to consider as I don’t think that is as clear-cut either way as opposing opinions appear to believe.

    • ecojon

      @ Duplesis

      I would love to be a fly on the wall when D&Ps Guantanamo Bay trained advisors start assembling the water-boarding equipment because Grier’s explanation of lack of ‘visibility’ falls a bit short of the expected laying your life down for the company 🙂

      • ecojon

        @ duplesis

        And another thing 🙂

        Let’s not fall into a PR line that wee Craigie turns otherwise sane and professional people into thieving monsters.

        Craigie says he had a deal with D&P to get the company back and he was stiffed by them because he obviously suspoects there was another deal on the table that suited D&P more.

        Craigie has asked for cash back and been repeatedly told to p*ss off and eventually he has decided on the MAD option. It makes total sense to Craigy and to me as well because Craigy will get his immunity and Hector is going to get BIG scalps and a lotta lolly back for the public purse.

        Craigie is morally no better than the rest of the snakes but he is no worse although when it comes to ‘operating’ he is in a class all of his own 🙂

        • I doubt that Whyte was stitched up by D&P to be frank. I think the original intention was probably something like a pre-pack, and that was what was being quoted on, but that events just ran away from them.

          Whyte’s exchange of emails with Grier about the quick administration are dated Saturday 11th February. On Monday the 13th Whyte announced his intention to take the plc into administration. If I remember correctly, in the normal course of events actual administration would have followed 10-14 days later, but at HMRC’s insistence admin actually happened immediately.

          My guess is the intention was to use that 10-14 days to get things in place for a pre-pack, but that was thrown into chaos by HMRC. The Ticketus deal itself probably also meant that a quick pre-pack turned out to be impossible – it had to be undone, as otherwise potentially any newco operating the club was stuck with the supposed Ticketus trust over future ticket sales. Getting the directions took some time, and by then the SFA investigation was up and running etc. I think the plan just unravelled, and Whyte’s at it.

          I was being a little wry when I commented on Whyte’s effects on the morality of his professional advisors – you could also say he just picks the ”right” people to deal with, I suppose. I would never have guessed though that someone in Withey’s position could be persuaded to do what he is supposed to have, nor would I have thought someone like Grier might allow himself to apparently conspire to mislead HMRC.

          • ecojon

            @ duplesis

            But who else is on tape? That is the question?

          • john

            the club is the company i wish you would stop with this holding/ operating company nonsense.. its a NEWCLUB NEWCO. all the admin paperwork clearly states this Green knew and stated as much before CVA rejection what would happen if the club was liquidated, all other credible bidders (knights) did not want liquidation as this would mean end of life and a new future in a new club with no history …. just accept it..

            • @ John

              Is that directed to me? Although I’m quite happy to argue the club is distinct from the company (and have done so on here many’s the time), I’m not sure it’s particularly relevant to this discussion!

  13. I’ve got a question, if CW had responded in the manner talked about ie that D+P and MCR were not involved in the Ticketus deal, could this be construed as conspiracy to commit a crime or would it be considered sharp practice?

  14. ecojon

    @ hawkeyethegnu

    I think it is too early in the game to form firm conclusions as there could be a lot of tapes out there and still nearly 2 hours left on the one Mark Daly has. Who knows what else is on that?

  15. Ranchero

    Of course another way of looking it at is that Grier’s position is consistent. That he didn’t know the extent of the Ticketus arrangements. And he wanted Craig to confirm this. Think about it. If your ass is on the line, and in that situation, why would you dare to try to get Craig Whyte to lie for you. The conversation can be read in a different way. Grier is under pressure within Duff and Phelps because of the BBC claims and wants Whyte to confirm what they both knew. There is nothing in the quotes that have come out that indicate anything other than Grier wanted Whyte to confirm his line, which was that he didn’t know the extent of the Ticketus arrangements. The cynics in all of us will of course question that but the evidence that says that Grier knew all along is not there as far as I have seen. The tape recordings that have been made public can be read in two ways. As they say in courts of law in Scotland… Not Proven. Yet.

    • ecojon

      @ Ranchero

      Hi Ramsey – that’s a great argument but no one will believe it – especially when they hear the rest of the tapes 🙂

      And a press release sent out from a makie-up Hotmail account to Craigy – I thought you were meant to be good with crisis PR 🙂

      Wait till you hear the rest of the tapes LMAO.

    • ecojon

      @ Ranchero

      In any case I’m sure Lord Hodge will ensure that everything is properly looked at next week as will BDO and HMRC in due course. And then of course there’s still the D&P court action in London – I think that will be quietly folded don’t you? And if not I’m sure Mr Grier will enjoys his time in court as a co-defendant 🙂

    • JohnBhoy

      Are you a nut job?

  16. ollielogie

    After a hard day this was just the tonic a tired public servant needed! Laughed out loud at your yellow belt gag Paul…chapeau Sir

  17. ecojon

    More on story on Newsnight Scotland at 11pm. Just on news D&P have responded with the same statement as yesterday – very weak position

  18. Marching on Together

    I was not aware of the David Grier/Bank of Scotland connection previously.

    I am aware through personal involvement of a company which was bought by one of Murray’s companies in summer of 2001 after it ran into financial difficulties. The fact of the financial difficulties was not known outwith the company, its bankers, and its advisers. The company banked with the Bank of Scotland, as did Murray’s group of companies. During the negotiations over the acquisition, the Bank of Scotland told Murray’s people about the financial position of the target company, whose negotiating position disappeared overnight. The sale of the company had to be done to avoid administration, and was completed on dreadful terms to Murray’s company, whereas without the revelation of the company’s financial position, better terms would have been achieved.

    The Bank of Scotland bought off the owners of the sold company with promises of backing for future ventures if they kept schtumm about all this, whereas I would have had it on the front page of The Scotsman.

    I never knew who the Bank of Scotland individual responsible was, but now I am wondering if it was David Grier, as he certainly would have been in a position to do so. Anyone any idea when he left Bank of Scotland in 2001, as in theory he could have already left by then?

  19. JohnBhoy

    The sharks mistook Craigie Googly Eyes for a tadpole. He turned out to be a Great Whyte and had them all for dinner.

  20. carl31

    Collyer Bristow attempting to get Grier over from D&P to their side and to act as a co-defendent in the case where D&P, acting as RFC(IA) administrators, are seeking £25m for creditors. If CB win then D&P could end up paying out to creditors…
    …according to Mark Daly on Newsnight Scotland.

    #confused

    • martin c

      so D&P to sue D&P/CB?
      CW to sue D&P?

      and i’m in HW with the Mrs for the OCD with RFC, so time for R&R

    • ecojon

      @ carl31

      You’re confused – how do you think Green and Ahmad feel – just another simple wee AIM Flotation wi a bit o’ dosh to be made and FFS wit’s the matter wi these Scots 🙂

  21. Alasdair MacLean

    Paul,

    “Between” two parties……..”among” 3 parties.
    Pedantic…..but correct.

    • JohnBhoy

      If pedantry is the order of the day, yanks use “among”, we, being posh, say “amongst”, unless we are in the middle of a shit storm, in which case we fall back on “amid”.

  22. JohnBhoy

    Bastards dancing to the tune of The Dashing Whyte Agent. They can switch partners, twirl and twist, but they’re still bastards.

  23. Ranchero

    ecojon.. your commentary is about as wide of the mark as your assumptions of identity. Keep it up. You might hit on truth at some point. I find it quite frankly hilarious that suddenly there is a belief in what Craig Whyte says. I mean hello? He has an agenda to get as much money as he can back because Ticketus are breathing down his neck. Remember too this is the Craig Whyte who was at war with the BBC and was threatening to sue them. The Craig Whyte that banned the BBC from Ibrox. Now he is happily giving them a tape recording that proves, so far, nothing. I remain sceptical over all parties involved in this.

    • mick

      ranchero your indenial with that comment are you cams mate open your ears and listen its grier telling whyte to lie the bbc have nailed them

  24. ecojon

    @ Ranchero

    I have no interest in what happens to CW although I do believe that his goal now is to stay out of jail rather than get a few million pay-off. The best he can hope for is the deal is unpicked and that could happen.

    I’ve actually not been listyening so much to what Craig Whyte says but watching the intense PR activity taking place on many fronts and listening to what all the other principals are not only saying but more importantly not saying.

    And what exactly is your aim in all this ranchero?

  25. Excellent post as usual Paul.

    Whatever else is said about him, our Craigie’s turning out a right sharp operator; he’s holding more than tapes surely: “Indeed the next day a statement went to Mr Whyte to approve, confirming what D&P were asking him to, but he did not do so.” So there may well be a paper trail to boot.

  26. COYBIG

    In the recording, Mr Grier says,

    “He’s(Whyte) incouraged by the progress of the CVA…believes the Charles Green bid is the best way forward for the Club…”.

    Therefore, with that evidence, and what Whyte said in his interview, about how Green’s bid came to pass. Would the logical conclusion not be, that Duff & Phelps are in some sort of cahoots, with Green et al?

    If BDO decide to reverse the deal etc. Would that mean, along with Ibrox and Murray Park…Oh, and the all important, magical history, that the players who where under contract with Oldco, but are now at new Clubs, would have to return? A bit far fetched, I know. But they where sold to the Newco as assests, just like Ibrox, Murray Park and the Histor…I can’t even bring myself to write it again, it’s that delusional and stupid.

  27. Ranchero

    The BBC’s reporting iof the issue odd. Tonight they have a headline “Duff and Phelps in ‘lying’ claims” then state categorically in the story “#Rangers administrators “tried to persuade” Craig Whyte to lie over Ticketus. So even they cannot make their mind up whether it is merely a claim or a fact. Legally dodgy. Then yesterday it was the same. Headline said “Rangers Ticketus deal conversation ‘was recorded’, as if there was a doubt. But the story said categorically again that BBC Scotland “has uncovered new evidence showing Rangers administrators Duff and Phelps knew Craig Whyte had sold season tickets to buy the club”. You cannot hedge your bets on such legally contentious issues. You either have the evidence or you don’t.

    • martin c

      I disagree and think you are deliberately taking issue with what the BBC are reporting. The BBC has the evidence and i assume that evidence is going through a legal process of evaluation re D&P v CB as stated on Newsnight this evening. Whether CB are successful in their process of having DG join them as defendants we wait and see?

      And if CB are successful then the tape carries a great deal of weight I admit to not knowing the time scales of these things but I’m sure we’ll know by close of play Wednesday?

    • JohnBhoy

      @ Ranchero

      And Attila the Hun’s hordes rioting in Manchester could be interpreted as a fine example of care in the community. Are you a fucking loon job? Bet you strap an orange to your gob every night and stare at the mirror. Vade retro, Satana.

    • ecojon

      @ Ramsey Ranchero

      I think my name for you fits better even though it might be incorrect but we are here to have a bit of fun are we not?

      No one on this site neads to hedge any bets nor do we need to have any evidence. This is a matter for the BBC and if you are correct in your assumption then D&P will bankrupt the BBC with the amount of damages awarded and the taxpayer will have to stump-up yet again because of Rangers.

      I believe we will see more of the evidence as the days go by and wee craigie leaks more tapes involving more people although, and I will say this agin, he is keeping the best to do an immunity from prosecution deal.

      But that will only delay publication until the criminal court cases because as my sainted auld granny repeatedly told me: ‘It’ll aw cam oot in ra wash’.

    • carl31

      Its notable that D&P might have lied to LH/a court, which would be a criminal matter. That has a different burden of proof than what we might think here or how things are likely to appear.
      Its likely that they were telling porkies, but would this likelihood be beyond doubt? Enough to send David Grier (with anyone else from D&P?) to the Regi Blinker?

  28. COYBIG

    @Ranchero

    “ecojon.. your commentary is about as wide of the mark as your assumptions of identity. Keep it up. You might hit on truth at some point.”

    Hey ecojon, I didn’t know you where on an adventure quest. Ranchero here, seems to think of himself as that baldy guy, who presented the Crystal Maze. Who’s Ramsey? Seriously though Ranchero, you’re being harsh on ecojon, he’s been a good source of information.

    “I find it quite frankly hilarious that suddenly there is a belief in what Craig Whyte says. I mean hello? He has an agenda to get as much money as he can back because Ticketus are breathing down his neck.”

    Hello! Don’t people usually say that at the begining? Anyway, people aren’t necessarily believing Whyte. Rather, they have listened to the recording, and made their judgement from that. So far, you’re the only person i’ve seen, apart from D & P, who, after hearing the recording, still assumes Grier isn’t guilty of anything. And nobody is denying, that Whyte is trying to make as much money as he can from this, nor is anyone suggesting, that Ticketus don’t want their money back.

    “Remember too this is the Craig Whyte who was at war with the BBC and was threatening to sue them. The Craig Whyte that banned the BBC from Ibrox. Now he is happily giving them a tape recording that proves, so far, nothing. I remain sceptical over all parties involved in this.”

    At war? Hmm…too far. More like, he refuted their accusations. But they have since been proven to be correct. Shock! Horror! A football club bans a media company from their stadium. It happens all the time. Usually, the media company issues an apology, which would be illogical in this particular case, and the ban’s lifted. So, a recording that, in your mind, proves nothing? Alot of people would disagree with you on that. You remain sceptical over all parties involved? Yet in a previous post, you pleaded Grier’s innocence.

    Finally, i’ll take a guess at your ‘true identity’ – Hmm…let me see now. Aha! OK, taking into account your wee flip flop. You’re not Mitt Romney by any chance, are you?

    • ecojon

      @Coybig

      It just struck me as rather strange the tone that Ranchero struck in his initial post last night and I haven’t seen him post before. I have noticed quite widely across Celtic-minded sites and here as well that most people fully realise wee Craigie for the con-man that he is. Of course these days it is difficult to work out whether when city spivs are con-men whether they actually need to do anything illegal to loot and plunder other people’s cash and savings.

      But wee craigie I think has captured the hearts of the Scottish People because he’s oor wee con-man and he has ripped the p*sh oota ra London city slickers and spivs and in so doing given us all a right good laugh. He’s a real anti-Hero Robin Hood in my eyes although in this tale Hector the Sheriff of Nottingham is likely to be victorious in the end.

      In the meantime craigy is cutting a swathe through the serried ranks of suits brandishing his Fiery Cross of retribution in the private clubs of London where even the Chinese restaurants are urgently installing spy detectors and sweep for bugs every morning.

      I predict we will have more new posters appear trying to rewrite history including some of our colonial cousins across the pond.

  29. COYBIG

    Alex Thomson tweet:

    “alex thomson‏@alextomo
    #c4news Friday. Exclusive: senior Scottish QC spells out what real intimidation means and takes aim at Rangers manager Ally McCoist.”

    A senior Scottish QC, is going to be ‘disparaging’ towards the Cheeky Chappy? I wonder what the Scottish MSM will make of this?

    • Maggie

      @ coybig
      Oh please,let it be REALLY disparaging,not the usual crap about how he spoke out of turn because of all the stress he’s had to cope with,so we’ll overlook it this time,and the next time and the next time ad infinitum.
      Don’t want to make this a rant,but one of the best parts of the whole debacle,for me,is that it happened while he was manager.
      Anyone else recall his comments to the effect that he was “loving it”
      when Celtic were having their troubles?
      Karma, Sally, Karma.

      • ecojon

        @ Maggie

        Check below and follo the link – looks good to me.

      • ecojon

        @ maggie

        I think that you have to remember that he’s not a plastic TV presenter acting at being a journo. He’s your actual front-line material and to do that you have to be a blood & guts kind of person.

        Yea it could be argued that his professionalism slipped on the occasion you mention but if you were having bile and hatred directed at you 24/7 non-stop by the demented hordes who cling onto Rangers – although the ones I talk about care nothing about football and only victories – then I am prepared to understand his frustration.

        What the imbecilic hordes don’t realise that they won’t get him fired by all the attention they create – he just becomes a more highly-prized commodity for Ch4 and their confidence in him is demonstarted by his doing tonight’s piece.

        It’s simple economics 101 but then some of the Rangers support have never quite grasped that concept.

        • ecojon

          @ maggie

          I think I have got the wrong end of the stick which you will no doubt bash me over the head with 😦

        • Maggie

          @ecojon
          Just read Alex Thomson blog,exceeds expectations.
          Totally agree with your opinion on Alex Thomson,I’ve been a huge admirer of his abilities since well before he took on the Ranger’s story.
          I applaud him for sticking with it despite all the veiled and unveiled threats he received.
          Don’t think I mentioned an occasion when his professionalism slipped as this is most certainly not my feelings at all,I was probably just carried away at the thought of Sally getting his comeuppance on national TV without knowing the content of the interview.
          Posts come up so thick and fast that at times we’re all “talking” at cross purposes,and the debate moves on so quickly that comments are redundant very quickly.

  30. Hector

    …and lets not forget for a significant period of time CW had unhindered access to every single piece of historical information held by Rangers…every EBT document, every board minute, every email on their servers, every piece of correspondence with the authorities stretching back over time. Duff and Phelps might have had a clear out but not before Craigy boy front loaded a few (war) chests full of juicy verifiable info.

  31. raycharlez

    Could someone please briefly tell me what laws Whyte may have contravened.

    I am a bit confused as RTC and others believe that allegations involving Financial Assistance are a non-starter as Whyte used his own pound to buy the club.

    There is talk of “immunity” for Whyte – but from what sort of charges?

    I thought I followed events quite closely but I am baffled by this.

    Cheers

    • ecojon

      @ raycharlez

      Until we are aware of all the evidence it would be remiss to decide on what charges might be faced. And other people have the right to defend their position obviously.

      I am sure that Strathpol and the HMRC will be liaising with the powers that be in Edinburgh to decide the best way forward to cleanse our society of the spivs and con-men who appear to be able to operate with impunity.

      And always remember when all else fails get them on illegal tax evasion as wee Al Capone discovered to his cost!

  32. mick

    Whyte claiming Rangers players were still using EBTs when he took over the club last year, 5 years after they were warned about them

    we teaser from twitter

    • ecojon

      @ mick

      What is really interesting about that as far as I know that the law changed and the use of EBTs actually becale illegal so this could be a whole new can of worms. It depends what period is covered by the BTC.

      Wee Craigie is causing a lot of damage with the potential to cause a helluva lot more. Can you imagine ordinary English viewers watching Ch4 tonight – they’l be wondering if they live in the same island.

      • charliedon

        @ecojon
        I’m not sure the EBTs strictly became illegal, I seem to recall they just changed the rules so that the EBTs were no longer so advantageous in reducing tax liability.

    • Maggie

      @ecojon
      Interesting programme indeed,but will be more interesting to see the response,if any,in MSM.
      What’s the bet that any response uses the ad hominem approach.

      • ecojon

        @ Maggie

        I don’t know if Ch4 do regional variations but if not then the programme will cause quite a flutter with some potential AIM investors down south.

        I think it will end on Chico apologising to a certain section of his support for them making death threats against him – still baffle me and I’m sure it will baffle the audience as well. Bound to be a few clips of the jolly picnic had by some Bears in Machester as well I would reckon and all the other devices sent by HM Royal Mail with scant regard to the safety of HM employees handling them let alone the recipients.

        Would you want to invest in this club?

  33. Maggie

    @ecojon
    Of course no savvy investor would touch them with a barge pole.
    The Ranger’s ethos ( let’s just call it that shall we! lol) is more widely
    known than we perhaps realise and when someone with the status of
    Alex Thomson reports on it,then those who don’t,soon will. Maybe Gary Allan QC will take a leaf out of Charlie’s book and apologise to the “small minority” for putting them to so much trouble re death threats etc.

  34. ecojon

    With all the talk of Rangers breaking attendance records and the club’s figures being disputed I asked the Guinness Book of Records for some assistance re Rangers and attendances as I was reasonably happy to accept their figures.

    The reply I received stated:

    Dear Sir,

    Thank you for your email. I have asked our record managers who are responsible for each record on the database and their response was ‘we do not monitor Scottish 4th division records’

    Many thanks

    Oh well back to the drawing board 🙂

  35. JimBhoy

    @Ecojon re: the comments left to Thommo’s blog, says it all to me, let’s forget, move on these things happened months ago and nothing happened to them!!!! Maybe this is like Chico putting things in ‘context’ over his serious threats from rangers fans, nothing happened so let’s move on… A lot of ranger’s fans mentality is firmly focused on getting back to their stand of supposed superiority (shallow, senseless immaturity) over anyone and anything, plastic success at any cost to anyone… WATP… Take one large rug and a large broom and anything contentious or seen as any kind of threat to them or their establishment gets a sweeping… If you look back even just a few weeks to what the eejit leggo spouts he is constantly giving out messages of a physical offensive nature, putting out publishers addresses and making out he is pulling string in tracking down moles, disparaging public people and trying to sell his book to the hoardes. Sad..!

    I look forward to the day when a sensible bunch of rangers fans take over their club when it is dead in the water and who look to build positives whilst getting rid of the hoardes and mentality that will ever pin them to the belly of the snake.. OR to follow Mick, a big new Tesco Extra or Asda (with Blue instead of the Green sign like the one in larkhall FFS) in Govan.

  36. JimBhoy

    @ecojon Forget record breaking, I bet they wish they could currently do Record(ing) breaking..!!! 😉

  37. James

    Any idea when the rest of the SEVCOGATE tapes will be released. There is two hours on the Whyte-Grier conversation, we have only had 10 mins or so.

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