Correcting Traynor’s Record Myopia on Image Rights – by Ecojon

“In Traynor we Trust” is the current rallying cry from the Darkside with the great man leaving offside-rule explanations to mere mortal scribes to pontificate on intricate tax affairs.

His latest subjective rant has given the Ibrox faithful a vision of Hector hammering at the Parkhead Gates demanding back-tax for image rights. I doubt from his scratchings that Traynor had much of a classical education but Hector actually found Paradise at the Gates of Troy  🙂

I would also observe that if the EBT route has been followed then perhaps Ibrox should be preparing to repel the taxman AGAIN.

I won’t deal in detail with the lack of objectivity in his piece and the scorn he pours on the fair play and integrity of Scottish Football fans other than to observe that no one will be surprised by his partisanship.

Jabba appears to have lost the plot over the EBT issue and his latest frenzy calls on the SPL and SPL to mount a forensic tax examination of every set of accounts sent in by every club and darkly hints: ‘You never know what might come to light’.

His ire is centred, as usual, on the unfair way he perceives Rangers to have been treated and he thunders: ‘Yet, this seems to be the standard the SPL are demanding of one club but not all, even though the league body and SFA should have asked Rangers about their EBT scheme from the first year it was included in the Ibrox accounts’.

The SPL Commission when it reports may well rule on whether the way Rangers reported its EBTs according to the rules and till then Traynor, like the rest of us, doesn’t have a clue whether it was acceptable or not. All he has is an opinion and a bias – just like most of us I would imagine although he is meant to be an objective reporter of the facts.

It could be argued that the SPL should have acted when first contacted by the HMRC but it’s likely that Hector asked them to stay their hand so as not to prejudice their EBT investigation and considering that almost £100 million of unpaid tax was involved I think the public purse trumps an SPL probe.

I do believe that both the SFA and SPL would have done anything  to avoid investigating Rangers but were dragged in because Hector was looking for his dosh and a Rangers director publicly blew the whistle about the activities behind closed doors at Ibrox.

So let’s cut the conspiracy against Rangers cr*p who landed in a mess they created all on their own despite strenuous efforts by the suits to find escape routes for them.

Back to tax-busting image rights payments which Traynor appears to think permeates the Scottish Game. What I can’t understand about Mr Scottish Football is his failure to name one single player receiving such payments. Says a lot about his forensic journalistic skills and lack of contacts IMHO  🙂  Of course he has never named anyone with an EBT and side contract either.

So let’s try to look at facts rather than fairytales.

Back in 2007 HMRC tested the law in ‘Sports Club Plc v Inspector of Taxes’ against a Premiership club and two of its players. Hector argued image rights’ payments were purely a tax saving device allowing inflated salaries, through tax savings, which should be regarded as employment earnings.

But they lost the case as the arrangements were declared ‘separate commercial contracts’ for full consideration and excluded under income tax legislation. Image rights aren’t legally recognised in the UK but any ‘personality’ can sell or licence rights to a third party or even his club and in recent times some players have been able to include contract clauses which distinguish between payments for footballing and image rights.

It seems that the practice really spread after the 1998 World Cup when foreign players apparently learnt from Premiership stars that London lead the way in manipulating more than just Libor.

These image rights’ payments are placed in a limited company which creates tax advantages as well protecting against unauthorised use of images.  It was even more advantageous for foreign players with non-domiciled UK status to have the money paid into offshore companies where income is taxed at corporation tax levels, potentially less than half the 45% top PAYE tax rate if company profits are £1.5m or less.

Despite losing the 2007 court case HMRC still believed the mechanism created tax evasion with a strong possibility that the image rights percentage would be inflated to save income tax and national insurance on the footballing-only contract with a £60 million tax loss across English Football.

The problem they faced of course was that unlike EBTs the image rights payments weren’t in a trust for a named player but were being paid to a limited company which had a distinct legal personality from the player.

There was the further complication that image-rights payments didn’t simply reflect the playing ability of a player. Indeed you could have a much poorer player being paid more in image rights than the best player in the team because he had a more marketable image.  Footballing ability might be  a factor but it’s only one strand of the complex mix that produces a David Beckham whose image rights might well overtake his footballing ‘wage’.

HMRC came under more pressure by a 2007 change in law allowing companies to lend large sums to their directors which was only taxed at 2%, being classed as a benefit in kind, rather than direct income. With the 2009 introduction of the 50p top tax rate the whole enterprise became even more financially lucrative for players.

Pressure from Hector finally forced West Ham United in 2010 to freeze payments on the image rights contracts of seven first team players until HMRC finalised their investigations. The club justified the freeze by noting HMRC said tax and NI should be deducted at source and told players’ agents that if they had any complaints then their clients should take it up direct with HMRC.  I don’t think there were any takers  🙂

HMRC also challenged the Portsmouth CVA – they were owed £24 million in taxes but also wanted £13 million off image rights paid to offshore accounts.

By February 2011 HMRC calculated the overall tax loss at £200 million and were cranking up the pressure with Man Utd and Chelsea in their sights and now Mike Ashley at Newcastle United, has followed Chelsea, announcing an agreement with HMRC with an undisclosed sum being  paid to settle image rights issues. HMRC have confirmed that most Premier league clubs have agreed to pay tax arising from image rights payments and they continue to negotiate with the others although the clubs now know the game’s a bogey.

Private discussions between the FA and HMRC hammered out the solution whereby players are graded from A to E depending on their profile and how a club uses their image. Most importantly HMRC has accepted a cut-off date before which payments haven’t been contested. I would think the same formula will be agreed by the SFA and Hector.

However, I really doubt that there will be that much of a problem to be faced in Scotland and the number of players involved will be small compared to England.  I therefore doubt we will see the cataclysmic collapse of Celtic no matter how fevered the imagination of some aging hacks might become.

Perhaps if the Great Man was a regular reader here he might have learnt the importance of separate legal personalities when considering anything remotely connected with Scottish Football these days  🙂

Posted by Ecojon

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123 Comments

Filed under Daily Record, Guest Posts, HMRC v Rangers, Rangers

123 responses to “Correcting Traynor’s Record Myopia on Image Rights – by Ecojon

  1. Vincent

    Jabba is clearly hurting. How this man continues to be given a platform by the BBC is beyond me.

  2. Good piece of info EJ, thanks for putting Jaba straight. It swated on him of course and only the critical or deeply unstable individuals seeking a teet to suck on follow his ravings anyway. Aperson on his way out. The sooner people switch off from his shows as well the better, they are no longer funny about football as its him that is the joke.

  3. paulsatim

    Jabba = Mr Scottish Football? I know its meant as tongue in cheek but surely more “the voice of a football”!!!

    • your right Paul, the voice of A football – empty ba’ bag full of nothing……

    • ecojon

      @ paulsatim

      very tongue in cheek 🙂

    • GWG

      actually his signature is “The Voice of Authority” .. no kidding.
      he has recently dropped it because he was constantly reminded by those of us that know he’s a bawbag that the “only” authority he has is ower wee Shug and Jackson and awe the other wee nipples at the Daily Liar…
      A truly obnoxious man who has over the years stoked the flames of hatred.

  4. sorry for typos wasted on him is how it should read

  5. cam

    Quite a boring non story about a boring non story originally penned by a bore.
    As for Traynor learning something “in here” then subjective ranting is majored ” in here”.
    A wee diatribe about bonkers Leggo insinuating that the host could possibly be Arty C would be much more thrilling.

    • jocky bhoy

      Traynor is RTC? Nah, I doubt that…

    • Ernesider

      Hi Cam

      What do you think about the proposed new Rangers’ Orange top?

      • cam

        Haven’t wasted a brain cell on thinking about it until you’ve asked.This might annoy some Irish people? is that what you’re getting at?
        Is it a pathetic attempt to cash in on 300 yr old pish?,,,yes.
        Will i buy one? ,,,no
        Would i wear one ?,,,no
        Would i donate money to having that accursed isle towed 3000 miles west,,,,yes.
        Do i prefer pink with sequins,,,i’m not telling so there!

  6. Robert D Bruce

    Ecojon,
    Perhaps you should mail that directly to Mr Traynor or via his editor at the Record.
    If image rights are what HMRC are now devoting their time to then I don’t think Celtic will have to much to worry about in comparison to RFC 2012(IA). Over the years Rangers have employed many of the “playboy” variety who were obsessed with their personal image. If they didn’t make the most of their image rights, they should have, and if they did, Hector may well be lumping their EBT and image rights payments together in one bill.
    The image that potential investors may get about The Rangers if they are to be embroiled in yet another tax scandal may be enough – if there were not enough reasons already – to keep their wallets tightly closed.
    One thing is for certain, the tax man will not be seeking recompense from Jim Traynor for any money he made from his image rights.

    • ecojon

      @ Robert D Bruce

      His editor is well-known in the industry as the original ‘Space Cadet’ and is spineless to boot and thus incapable of controlling Traynor – that’s why he gets away with it.

      Hector’s timetable was always to deal with the FA first while foreign players were still in their ‘jurisdiction’ and quite frankly that is where real image rights cash was being paid. Now the formula for repayment has been worked out it will be applied to the handful of players in Scotland it might apply to.

      I tend to shy away from the Byzantine complexities of the interlocking SFA, SPL and SFL rulebooks but I really don’t believe that any of the associations can legally hold payments from a club re image rights as payment for footballing activities. In any case, some players do not accept contracts allowing their club to negotiate image rights on their behalf. Instead they use specialist advisors and offshore companies and it is not illegal to do so. In a sense it is quite similar to the original EBTS which were legal as long as the rules were followed.

    • ecojon

      @ Robert D Bruce

      I was just re-reading your piece and had a laugh to myself. I wonder if Traynor has all his side earnings, not from his main employment earnings, paid net of NI and Income Tax.

      Would it be at all possible that the amounts are paid gross into a Ltd company? Heaven Forbid – surely if that were the case that Mr Traynor would publicly declare the matter so that we could be reassured that there was no conflict of interest in what he writes.

      • Robert D Bruce

        eco,

        We demand to know!

        The people of Scotland have a right to know!

        we need transparency of these things!

        Mr Traynor should tell us what his financial status is before he insinuates that others are transgressing the law.

        What gives him the right to judge us?

        What gives him the right to call people into question?

        What sort of kangaroo justice is this that this man is administering.

        Who is this man!

        Copyright 2012 Fat Sally.

      • John Mac

        So, so spot on. I have often wondered that if the huge amount of bias he’s shown to Rangers, even when it makes him seems outrageously out of touch, is not part of some kind of debt he owes.
        Think about it. He is making himself look like a fool and his desperate attempts to smear Celtic can be seen by any sane person as being totally without merit. Why would he risk his career like this? A journalist needs credibility and he has none at all now. Zilch.
        As the original ‘succulent lamb’ you would have thought that he would try even harder to look as if he’s being objective so as not to risk being seen as irrelevant. Instead he keeps going with ever more ridiculous nonsense like this.
        I really do believe that he’s been ‘bought and paid for’. It’s the only thing that makes any sense.
        OR if he has any information on dodgy dealings, let us see the evidence. Break that habit of a lifetime Jim and give us a REAL exclusive. Show us that you are capable of doing a proper bit of reporting, you know, like the internet bampots seem to be so good at doing. You’re the ‘real’ journalist Jim, show us how the professionals go about it. You must have the contacts as you are the ‘voice of football’ in Scotland. Go on, get your hands dirty and give us a real story. If you can’t do that then shut up and stop smearing a club that, until you can prove otherwise, has followed the rules to the letter unlike the one which would appear to have been passing brown envelopes your way for years and is now expecting payback.

        • ecojon

          @ John Mac

          Obviously there were no exclusives in the envelopes – perhaps some cold pies 🙂

        • Andy

          @John Mac

          ‘outrageously out of touch’……Do explain, who is he out of touch with, Celtic fans? Rangers fans? Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen fans?

          of all the reasonable minded people (in real life) i have spoke to throughout the whole saga, most now at this stage just want to get on with the football….the problem for Celtic fans and always will be is that they are fascinated and obsessed with Rangers….All we want to do is get on with our football, yet use lot are desperate to seek some form of retribution for something as yet unproven to satisfy your silly little minds..your not even interested in the sport!!

          If its not Greens, McCoists comments being disected on here its now a journalist who dares to say anything that may be considered anti-Celtic or a defense of Rangers…..Lets face it, if image rights were to be investigated up here, its more than likely Rangers would be at the top of that pile with the likes of de boer etc, or perhaps Rangers mitigated image rights by using ebts instead, who knows??

          However, is it not a fair question to ask, that when one club within Scottish footballs premier is being investigated, then why not investiagte others? What is the obsession with Rangers?

          If as is often alluded to on here were all about protecting the public purse, then surely an investigation that revealed any amount of unpaid tax is worthwhile, be it from hearts, killie, dundee…even Celtic (I know I said it, Im sorry, Im now from the mysterious darkside….whoooooo).

          • John Mac

            @Andy
            Dear, dear dear… The man is probably Scotland’s highest profile sports journalist. He is supposed to be impartial and he enjoys a lucrative contract with the publicly funded broadcaster. Yet he constantly puts forward a pro-Rangers agenda. This cannot be denied. He now writes a column casting serious aspersions in the direction of Celtic for doing something that he offers no proof of whatsoever.
            If I worked at your workplace and started telling everyone that you were having an affair with your boss, would I not do severe damage to your reputation? Unfortunately the truth is never as succulent as a tasty lie.
            It’s very obvious that Jabba is trying to propagate a myth that they are all guilty so why pick on Rangers when they are all at it. It would be far too expensive to investigate it though so we should probably just let it go. Let’s just get on with football blah, blah, blah…
            This is a scoundrel in action. They have nothing. Nothing.
            You’re a Rangers man and it’s guys like Traynor who helped pull the wool over your eyes for years. Without him and his ilk you would probably still be alive, yet he whistles his wee tune and you all fall in line. A pathetic, low information audience if ever I saw one. If you lot were American you would be cheering for Mitt, of that I have no doubt.

            • blindsummit63

              Because we all know how much critical thinking Obama’s adoring fans do. now where’s my free obamaphone <l.

          • COYBIG

            @Andy

            “Do explain, who is he out of touch with, Celtic fans? Rangers fans? Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen fans?”

            His penis. He hasn’t seen it for years.

            “of all the reasonable minded people (in real life) i have spoke to throughout the whole saga, most now at this stage just want to get on with the football….the problem for Celtic fans and always will be is that they are fascinated and obsessed with Rangers….All we want to do is get on with our football, yet use lot are desperate to seek some form of retribution for something as yet unproven to satisfy your silly little minds..your not even interested in the sport!!”

            So if people agree with you, they use good judgment and therefore fair and practical. But if people disagree with you, they have little thought or judgement and are small minded. Wow! What formal debating skills you have.

            OH NO! Celtic have a game in Moscow at 5pm. And here I am unable to think about that because I am too interested in about The Rangers. HELP! Change the record Andy, Celtic fans are only intrested in making sure Rangers get the punishments they deserve. The comedy we’ve been getting from the Pheonix Team since July is just an added bonus.

            “If its not Greens, McCoists comments being disected on here its now a journalist who dares to say anything that may be considered anti-Celtic or a defense of Rangers…..Lets face it, if image rights were to be investigated up here, its more than likely Rangers would be at the top of that pile with the likes of de boer etc, or perhaps Rangers mitigated image rights by using ebts instead, who knows??

            However, is it not a fair question to ask, that when one club within Scottish footballs premier is being investigated, then why not investiagte others? What is the obsession with Rangers?

            If as is often alluded to on here were all about protecting the public purse, then surely an investigation that revealed any amount of unpaid tax is worthwhile, be it from hearts, killie, dundee…even Celtic (I know I said it, Im sorry, Im now from the mysterious darkside….whoooooo).”

            The comments have been “dissected” because, in Green’s case, they have been either wrong, unfounded, antagonistic, unbelievable, deluded or laughable. And in McCoist’s case, because its morally wrong to use the suicides of to girls, just to give your arguement more creedence. Also, becuase he knew what he was doing when he asked who was on the SFA panel. Despite already knowing.

            As far as “only one club being investigated”, Celtic were investigated and it was proven that everything was correct and above board. The other Scottish clubs? I don’t know. But I would like to think after what has happend, the SFA would check every club. Just because it’s not reported in the Daily Record doesn’t mean it’s not happend.

            And “whoooooo” ? I think the word you were looking for is:

            • Andy

              Haha, you guys give me a laugh, it’s all so easy……

              But it’s morally okay to publish a nationwide broadcast depicting McCoist committing suicide?… Pull the other one!!

              You seemed to brush over the unpaid tax point, surely you would like to see Celtic investigated thoroughly to ensure that all tax they are due to be paid has been? ….Im not suggesting they have but Celtic competed with Rangers team on the field at the time of EBT’s….is it a question worth asking, if Rangers couldnt afford it then how could Celtic?….the 10,000 extra seats is probably about 7m a year but the losses rangers ran at were far higher than that, yet Celtic still had players capable of beating the de boers and numans…..Its not beyond the realms of possibilities that Celtic adopted a similar but also entirely legal scheme of reducing tax burden on players/club….surely worth a look, no?? Which from what I read all trainor was saying, why is it so upsetting for that question to be asked?

              The overiding point of article seems to be that the Rangers investigation is a bit pointless (as there is no material benefit to anyone!!) and if your going to investigate one club why not the rest? Now you lot of all got ants in your pants about how bad a guy trainor is, haha, it’s laughable!!

              Concentrate on your teams game tonight, and leave us to do the same with ours….your on here writing about Rangers….were in the 3rd Div, why do you care??

            • carl31

              Andy,
              Why not minutely investigate all the companies in the UK?
              Why not investigate companies and individuals?
              Why not have everyone who stays in your area have to justify all of their household earnings, on the basis that the local drug dealer seems to have used the proceeds of crime to buy his Audi and 32inch HD telly?
              Why??
              Because its patently and blindingly obvious that it would be unreasonable to do so since there is no evidence of actual wrongdoing.

              Rangers are not being investigated beyond what is reasonably justified by the evidence. Evidence of claim by Hugh Adam (notably this alone was not enough), and the substantial documents seen by the BBC and included in their documentary.

              I believe that intrusive investigation, beyond reasonable, without evidence of any wrongdoing may constitute harrassment under the law. Both Rangers and Celtic would give such unreasonable investigation short shrift and rightly so. Lawyers for the respective clubs would have the SPL in court pretty damn quick if the available evidence did not support the investigation.

              The fact that neither club has done so tells you all you need to know about the respective positions of both Rangers and Celtic re whether they ‘deserve’ investigation.

          • Budweiser

            @ andy
            What harm have St.Mirren fans done? We demand to be ‘out of touch’ with traynor as well! As regards investigations ,Gary Withey [ex rangers sec] already “investigated” EBT’S and players’ contracts in the Saint’s boardroom earlier this year. surely Jabba could have asked him? oh forgot, he’s too busy in court. Word in the streets of Mirren is that the panda mascot guy is demanding better ‘image rights’ because of the two phonies at Edinburgh Zoo!

            • ecojon

              @ Budweiser

              Contact the Home Secretary immediately – if they are Chinese and don’t have valid students visas then they should be deported forthwith 🙂

  7. dan

    Nice one ecojon. I’ve asked the question before on here (at least I think it was on here) as to what precisely HMRC alerted the authorities to in 2010. Are we to believe they told the SFA that Rangers were operating dual contracts? I doubt that very much, as we still don’t know if that was the case. At most, I think, HMRC would have said EBT’S were now being treated as a form of tax evasion and that member clubs should be informed. The issue of dual contracts was raised by a former Rangers director and, as far as I’m aware, that rightly gave rise to the current investigation. All this other stuff about the SFA being tardy is just a smokescreen. The thing about Traynor and co, is that they simply cannot get over the fact that their warnings of Armageddon were ignored. And what really gets up their noses is the that is was the fans (internet bampots etc) that drove the decision to refuse newco entry into the SPL and Div 1.

    What none of them seem to have thought through is that if Rangers, and Celtic, are immune from relegation from the SPL—that’s the logic of their stance–then we do not have a properly competitive league.

    The journalist in question used to refer to himself as ‘The Voice Of Authority.’ What brazen megalomania. Tells you all you need to know about him I think.

    • cam

      I’ve always thought of Traynor as a gibbering buffoon but in a harmless, easy to ignore kind of way.
      If he has a hidden agenda he has managed to keep it well hidden for years and not been got at by the Mafiosa.
      I think i could do a much better job than him,i bet Phil 3 names does too, but Traynor hasn’t gotten himself smeared with a sectarian brush just yet,,,,keep digging chaps i’m sure you will find something!

  8. allyjambo

    Clubs and players will be quaking in their boots now they know Jabba is on their trail. That journalistic bloodhound will seek out the truth and put all perpetrators to task in exactly the same way he feretted out the Rangers’ EBT scam and revealed the truth about Whyte. We know he’ll name names and check out all his facts by tirelessly doorstepping the big players and never accept a press release without his own in-depth investigation. Oh wait a minute…

  9. Good work Ecojon – although I reckon the explanation would be better understood by some people if it were written in more tabloidese!

    It galls most sane people that Traynor gets paid for the guff he writes – and that he has an editor (let’s remember) who OKs the arguments before he goes away to batter them out, no doubt tongue sticking out as his sausage fingers feverishly jab the keyboard.

    It really seems as though Traynor’s contract stipulates that he writes up mostly subjective, childishly annoying tosh that is purely aimed at winding people up, its effectiveness judged on how many people feel compelled (as I have done, sadly) to write comments after it, the Daily Wreckord securing extra publicity by those commenters having to sign in via facebook.

    However, looking at the usual comments he attracts, they are partly made up of non-Rangers supporters ripping his arguments to bits, and partly – actually mostly – by a load of Rangers and other supporters reverting to barely concealed sectarian bating of each other. It’s pathetic.

    Hopefully, once all the truth comes out and the verdicts come in, the self-proclaimed ‘voice of Scottish football’ will be one a few quasi-journalists whose reputations will be irrevocably in tatters. I do hope so – the guy’s a joke and his column is an embarrassment to journalism everywhere.

    • Cassandra

      Jabba’s ramblings are getting worse,he sounds like a drowning man going down for the third time or a character out of a Cervantes novel. Surely a more appropriate name for him would be “Toom Tabbard”.

      • ecojon

        @ Cassandra

        I have to admit that I was unfamiliar with ‘Toom Tabbard’ so went in search and discovered the Balliol connection. I also came across some whacky madness which I have undernoted and wonder if this is how Traynor concocts his ranting. The UNDERNOTE carries a religious health warning btw but I suppose I could be reborn although America is pretty far to travel for the fun 🙂

        UNDERNOTE

        December 1, 1292, was a good day for John Balliol – his first full day as King of Scotland. But less than four years later, after constant humiliations at the hands of the English, he was defeated in battle and abdicated. The arms of Scotland were stripped from his surcoat,
        giving him the abiding nickname of “Toom Tabard” – “The Empty Suit”.

        Welcome to: Midrealm Bardic Madness XIV: Toom Tabard
        West Shore Unitarian Universalist Church
        20401 Hilliard Boulevard, Rocky River, OH 44116

        The Challenges
        Ab Dictation: King John’s “empty suit” legacy begins with his abdication “proclaiming away” so present a piece in which you throw away some piece of the past – your own, or our common heritage.

        The Emperor’s New Clothes: The antithesis of an empty suit is … Well, sometimes it’s “nakedness”, exposing folly or vulnerability. Sometimes it’s “nudity”, suggesting fearlessness or heroism. And sometimes it’s … something else. Give us a tale of someone or something uncovered.

        The Empty Suit: You will draw two cards from a deck and from them you must spin a story, song, etc with the suits determining the subjects and the card values determining the main characters (details on
        the web site.) Unless, that is, you draw “the empty suit” – the Joker. Then you must tell a tale of a jester, fool or clown and must include all four of the suit-subjects.

        Hector’s Tartan: Based on an idea by Master Hector. Create a song or verse “tartan” of every color of the rainbow (red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet) plus black and white. Use those nine words
        or make nine references – so long as the references are clear; not necessarily unambiguous, just clear.

        If the Suit Fits, Share It: Bring an extra article of clothing with you to the event (easy to put on and take off, please, and keep it hidden until the moment of truth). We will pair you with another attendee. Each will dress in the other’s apparel; and together you will create a tale or dialog.

        Suit the Action to the Word: Prepare a piece which incorporates both physical action (fencing? juggling? tumbling? you decide) and spoken or sung words.

        Form Challenge – The Standart Habbie: A favorite of Burns (see his “To a Mouse”), this form dates back to mid-Period. Stanzas have 6 lines rhyming AAABAB, the “A” lines having four iambic feet each
        and the “B” lines two (details on the web site) A versatile form, it’s been used for everything from tragedy to travesty, from ode to the odious. So tell us a tale in the Standart Habbie. For extra credit, set it
        to music!

  10. why did D&P pay £100k+ for media right wen Jaffa & his mates doing it for free? or are some of them on EBT,S.also seem to remember couple X players were taken to court 4 minor driving offences(mid 90,s),&showed the court a payslip which showed only on £1k a week,sure Goram 1 of them,Any of The Brainy folk here remember wot the scheme was MiNTY paid players before EBTS,?Thanks.

    • ecojon

      @ celt4ever

      To be fair with Goram I think he didn’t get a lot of his wages paid direct to him because of his love for the geegees. Bit of a personal tragedy the money he has gone through.

  11. ecojon

    @ Kenny McCaffrey

    And here was me thinking the headline was a lovely piece of tabloidese 😦

    Traynor and the like are parasites feeding on the back of Rangers and Celtic. Their whole rationale is to stir-up trouble just to get a reaction to justify their existance,

    As real circulation continually plummets they desperately try to generate tweets, emails and facebook traffic to convince their editors that people are interested in their drivel.

    And idiot editors appear incapable of figuring-out that this internet activity does absolutely nothing to produce circulation or, more importantly, advertising income and the spiral of decline just tightens as more and more discerning readers just stop buying their papers.

    It’s actually hilarious watching the likes of Traynor have to get into the realms of income tax intricacies to try and generate interest in his nonsense. But just like his football coverage he doesn’t do it terribly well 🙂

  12. John Burns

    Traynor is “The Voice of Rangers” – He wants to demean and destroy the whole of Scottish football. His rants at fellow ‘pundits’ on BBC is ridiculous – how on earth can he be kept as a BBC employee is beyond me.

    I truly believe that we will see his name on the list when the whole EBT fiasco is revealed.

    • carl31

      I agree that its a travesty any public money is spent employing such a man.

    • John Mac

      I agree. I often wonder why some of the names of EBT recipients were held back. There was a lot of talk about ‘nuclear’ revelations around the time of the second BBC programme. Could this be connected? Could guys like Chick and Jabba, along with certain SFA staff have been on the list?
      Of course it’s only uninformed speculation but that’s usually enough info for Jabba to get a double page spread and maybe a back page out of.
      This is all so unhealthy. We need a clean break. Some new and untarnished faces to replace the corrupt Old Guard. And the two I mentioned earlier should not a get a single penny more of licence fee money when they have such a one sided agenda. A lot of the anger coming from the blue side of the city just now can be put down to the info they are reading on a daily basis from these kind of guys and that’s not helpful at all.

      • ecojon

        @ John Mac

        It’s amazing how the Darkside websites have clung on every word Traynor has written about image rights – so much so he is almost within touching distance of chico’s Messiah cloak.

        The one thing that I just can’t get my heard round is how they feel image rights would be ctaclysmic for Celtic but Rangers would escape unscathed. Commonsense makes me prefer the hypotheses that since Rangers embraced even more dodgy EBTs then they may well have been attracted to image rights as a means of boosting wages. But as I said in my piece I very much doubt it is a problem for Scottish clubs although it’s fair to say that HMRC will have chapter and verse on Rangers finances and player payments so it could well be that Ibrox might well become the Scottish test case for image rights.

        Rangers fan board followers seem to believe they have cracked the Da Vinci Code in Traynor’s rant and do indeed believe that he is keeping his powder dry – a phrase recently also becoming more and more applied to chico who seems to have gone a little quiet – and that even more revelatory pronouncements from Traynor will soon follow and spell the end of Celtic, the SFA and SPL.

        There must be a Hollywood movie in here somewhere and in a rare display of neutrality I will rule out the Zombie genre 🙂

        • John Mac

          @ecojon
          I agree completely. I think it’s time that Young and Traynor were shown the door. They are both employees of the state broadcaster and are using their public platforms to pander to the Rangers mobs ridiculous sense of injustice. Why should licence payers money be used in this way?

        • Budweiser

          @ ecojon
          Fistful Of Dollars

  13. ecojon

    @ John Burns

    I think you are right about him wanting to destroy the whole of Scottish people. I think I always wondered what was driving the seeming hatred and having read his piece on image rights I came to the conclusion that, indeed, he has come to hate Scottish Football.

    The very thing that has given him an excellent lifestyle and the opportunity to travel the world doing something that surely he must have loved at one time. What a dream job for a football fan.

    One can only come to the conclusion that he has fallen out with football just as reasonable thinking fans have fallen out with his rubbish. The big difference is the fans want to save football and Traynor appears to want it destroyed possibly because it can no longer sustain his taste in succulent lamb and all he is left with is tripe 🙂

    His article is full of whataboutery and whatiffery: He is supposed to be a journalist – he shouldn’t be posing unanswered questions – he should be providing answers. I can only wonder whether his editor knows enough about journalism to realise what Traynor actually should be doing not only to earn his wage but to inform paying readers in a non-partisan way.

    I could list all the unanswered questions he has posed, many of which attack ordinary decent fans and the SPL/SFA but there is no point because Traynor isn’t interested – so much better just to ignore him and his rantings.

    But one statement I really can’t ignore is this one which is either aimed at fans and/or the SPA/SFL or indeed both: ‘And of course they might regard the entire business as some kind of crusade to get to the truth as it has formed in their own minds.’

    Seems to me that his comment applies more aptly to codmouth himself and his state of mind than anyone else.

  14. carl31

    Its to be remembered that Gym Trainer is delivering his opinion. Its other parts of the rag that is the DR that are supposed to be giving us ‘news’. By all means have a go at the eejit for daft, obtuse or simply ignorant opinions.

    On Image Rights, my understanding was and is …
    that the overall image of the player was not dependent on footballing activities, as the piece points out, and agents / players sought to independently negotiate and control them.
    For a number of years when the OF were in the market for high championship quality/low premiership quality players, this opened an angle on attracting the slightly better quality player.

    OF clubs at the time could offer potential routes to European football that high Champoinship clubs/low Premiership clubs could not offer. Given that players sought experience from these games for their CV, even the chance of European football at club level was attractive to them.The player that was embarking on maybe an international career would be just beginning to concern himself with image rights, no doubt advised by an able and experienced agent. UK clubs that offered contracts allowing them to retain full ownershipand control of their own image rights, became attractive to them. Such contract arrangements allowed the OF at the time to punch above their weight in football terms.

    Other markets were also opened by offering contracts that allowed the players to negotiate their own image rights, such as USA or Far East players. Frendlies played in these areas of the world become important to the players individually, rather than just about raising the profile of the Club.

    Its worth remembering that understanding the market and any opportunities that circumstance allows or offers is part and parcel making and keeping a club successful. A prime example of this is when Rangers under SDM took advantage of the opportunity offered by the European ban on English clubs.

    • ecojon

      @ carl31

      I accept that Traynor is delivering his opinion but you appear to miss the important point that he is not in the same position as a fan in the street. He is meant to be a trained journalist and as such he ethically should be providing a balanced opinion.

      He is also different from an ordinary fan in that his extremely privileged opinion gives him access to facilities and to ask questions and seek information from experts to ensure that his position is not only balanced but hopefully based on the actual facts of the matter.

      It isn’t a terribly high barrier he is asked to clear – it’s just about reporting football in a fair way to inform his audience,

      Where he and many others are going wrong is two-fold: 1) They perceive themselves as ‘personalities & entertainers’ and not journalists. 2) Their employer has bought into this and promote the ‘celebrity’ status of what are often fairly pedestrian journos in a vain attempt to bolster collapsing circulation.

      Where Traynor has gone totally off the tracks in his piece is by turning it into more a defence of Rangers, a reiteration that they are being punished too severely and coupled this with an attack on the SFA and SPL, Scottish football fans and Scottish Football in general.

      One might well ask what any of the above has got to do with his opinion on image rights.

      As to your own analysis and opinion on image rights I think it is excellent and better than anything I could have produced and one can only wonder why Traynor’s offering was so poor and seems to carry the seeds of some deep-seated disaffection or bias as he has not tempered his opinion with actual facts and just posed question after question – without providing any actual answers.

      Anyone who wishes his opinion to be respected by his readership should at the very least be attempting to provide answers and a balanced argument as free from external bias as is humanly and professionally possible.

  15. dan

    And let’s not forget Granny Keevins. Last week he was telling us the Celtic Supporters Association would be meeting to discuss a boycott of the next Kilmarnock game. Absolutely, 120% untrue! And then comes over all indignant when he is barred from Celtic Park! Breathtaking.

  16. ecojon

    @ dan

    Keevins is a different class from Traynor – sadly Hugh has just got old and is now past it. That’s not meant as an ageist remark just something that happens to us all I’m afraid.

  17. K19

    I am confused by the use of the nickname Jabba – surely you mean JAFFA?

    Just Another Fat F******* Ars*hole?

  18. COYBIG

    @ecojon

    “What I can’t understand about Mr Scottish Football is his failure to name one single player receiving such payments.”

    That’s probably because if he did name any players, he would be shot down in flames. (Don’t worry Hugh, it’s only an expression). So what he does is bring up the subject of image rights, then hint at them being somehow dodgy, which gets his subliminal message across without having to justify anything to anyone.

    By writing phrases such as, “You never know what might come to light.” and, “Yet, this seems to be the standard the SPL are demanding of one club but not all.” Makes it abundantly clear to everyone, except his papers’ readership, that he is blatantly trying to insinuate that Celtic have cheated. And are getting away with it.

    All he seems to be doing is trying to appease The Rangers fans, by getting them to think that all of the wrong doing, by the people involved at their former club, is justified because Celtic were ‘at it’ as well.

    Well I would like to hope that is the reasoning behind all of his nonsensical reporting. Beacuse if he really believes some of the things he has wrote on this sorry saga, then his succulant lamb must have been spiked. (Don’t worry Hugh, I only wrote it in jest).

    One thing to bear in mind when reading anything Traynor has written, is that this is the man who described ‘the famine song’ as just a bit of fun.

  19. JimBhoy

    In my humble opinion both Keevins and Jabba were found out way back for their lack of any talent and have consistently abused their public position. Eco stated that earlier, they think they are entertainers when, let’s be honest, joke figures would be more appropriate.. in the same mould as Gerry McNee the original voice of a football, what a crabbit faced b’stad he was!!
    They are both hanging on for a pension, they could not secure another job writing a sports column for the Burniston gazzette.

    Bring back wee Jimmy Sanderson.. He showered wi Dalglish you know!!

  20. JimBhoy

    Heartfelt condolences to Willie Henderson and family….

    • COYBIG

      Very sad news, which brings everything else into perspective.

      My thoughts and prayers are with Willie and his family.

      May his daughter rest in peace.

      • ecojon

        Ditto to that.

        Any death can cause grief and that of a child is particularly hard for parents to bear. A hard time for them I’m afraid.

  21. Jim Traynor would, no doubt, agree with this piece just published by Rangers Media (my thinly-disguised effort to make this appear on-topic) in an article about a proposed boycott of SPL teams if drawn away in the League Cup :

    “There was a huge furore that was certainly aided by the media coverage that resulted and suddenly our Club was a tax-evading, creditor-shafting, morally bereft organisation that brought nothing but shame to Scottish football. It is curious that the same reaction was never afforded to the likes of Dundee, Motherwell and even Gretna, all of whom suffered similar insolvency events”.

    I do not recall any of these teams walking away from a NINE-FIGURE
    pile of debts. I would hardly consider any of the above as SIMILAR
    insolvency events. Indeed Gretna did not survive in Senior football.

    • Andy

      @hugh

      But its all relative…..Rangers are a bigger club so the debts were inevitably larger…Do you go around harrassing every individual that has been declared bankrupt in their life, telling them that they are immoral and all the rest of it….Of course not. Do you go and scream at banks and vodafone etc for ripping you off of hundreds of millions….Of course not. Rangers had a reckless business model that relied on having success and I mean success in europe, it failed and here we are in Div 3!!

      Do you not think i would rather be watchin my team take on barca and benfica, than forres and alloa?? Insolvency never benefits anyone, its part of the reason we have recessions as money simply ‘disappears’ from the economy….but you are so caught up in Rangers that you still feel the need for more punishment instead of just concentrating on your own team…..is it any wonder Rangers and support are going to act defiantly!!

      • mcfc

        Your club has stolen the equivalent of £1.50 out of the pocket of every man, every woiman and every child in the United Kingdom.

        What you describe as defiance is ignorance and stupidity.

      • Jimmy S

        yes, it seems that Rangers were experts in making money disappear from the economy. í think what gets most people is the illegal activity and cover ups that were going on, aided and abetted by the establishment in terms of the authorities and a complicit mainstream media.

        they were more than reckless. they knew years ago they manure was hitting the fan yet continued to spend knowing their fickle support would never accept living within their means and attempting to pay off debts.

        and i don’t really know what you mean by more punishment? punishment seems very light so far in my opinion. rangers, old or new, havent yet been punished over dual contracts.

        • Andy

          And weve got an army of giro junkies stealing ££££s of pounds a year from hard working men, women and their families every year….but Rangers of course worse than all them!! There are thousands of clubs and companies that this is happening, why do you think we have a recession…it is you that is ignorant!!

          The odd thing is, if Rangers are cleared of the EBT debt and its all legal, does that make it morally correct….on here it probably will, but it doesnt change the fact the tax wasnt paid!!….but it certainly wont constitute stealing, in this case what is it??

          Do you choose not to use vodafone based on the fact they have ‘stole’ £6.00 from every man, women and child? it is you that is being stupid and clearly struggle to understand the facts of what has happened, move on and get over it!!

          Look at the amazing result from Celtic tonight and enjoy the football, why are you so worried by Rangers affairs still…we dont even compete in the same league as Celtic anymore?

      • Ally McMoist

        A consistent reply from Rangers fans whenever their chairman,manager or fans are exposed for talking rubbish seems to be to tell the rest of us to concentrate on our own clubs or that we are obsessed with Rangers for having the nerve to pull you up on the utter nonsense you all spout.
        Rangers officials and supporters act defiantly because of their built-in arrogance that comes with the territory of being a Rangers fan with their WATP superiority complex mentality.
        The reason fans of other Scottish clubs want to have a go at Rangers & not Gretna,etc i think is mainly due to the fact Rangers already had a huge advantage over other clubs with their vastly superior wage/player budget without having to dodge millions of tax to further widen the spending gulf.

  22. Hey Jumbo Trainer. we know you read these pages, it’s obvious by the way you make reference to them when you slabber yer stuff on bbc radio. Anyhoo, gonnie gie Scottish fitba and aw the supporters a wee break and gan awa an throw yersel in the Clyde…ye’ll no be missed ya big useless tub o lard.

    • mick

      @buffy the cat do you think the cleaner needs a wet fax to hoover up all the slabbers from the floor at the desk he sits at lol

    • ecojon

      @ Buffy the Cat

      Hey the Kelvin Klean-up Kampaign is trying to reintroduce new acquatic species to the Clyde – we do not need missing links with dodgy DNA to screw things up thankyou!

  23. Maggie

    @ ecojon
    Hugh Keevins is indeed in a different category from James Traynor,
    a category known in America as “An Uncle Tom”
    Uncle Tom is a character in Harriet Beecher Stowe’s 1852 novel
    about the struggle for the emancipation of black slaves in the U.S.
    prior to the American Civil War.
    The phrase an Uncle Tom has become an epithet for a person who
    is slavishly and excessively subservient to perceived authority figures,or
    any person perceived to be a participant in the oppression of their own
    group.
    Mr Keevins’ actual writing skills when looked at in isolation from the content of his work are appalling.His sentence structue,syntax,grammar
    and use of punctuation are among the worst I have ever seen in a so called professional journalist.
    As for Mr Traynor,where to start? Two words should suffice however…. Career Suicide!!!!!!
    The man is so completely discredited as a serious journalist he’d be as
    well clearing his desk now, before the HMRC verdict and the findings
    of the liquidators are published,and skulking off to join SDM wherever
    succulent lamb is being served these days.

    • Jono

      Didn’t a previous study on newspapers, in the context of reading and literacy, indicate that the Daily Record is written at a reading age level of 7? Anyone remember that, it may have been more than a few years ago..

      • ecojon

        @ Jono

        The problem with reading age is that it doesn’t actually correspond to biological age. I’m pissed having watched tonights glorious Celtic display which was a tribute to Scotland’s SPL football so I ain’t going to do the research.

        But from memory of ong gone ago I seem to remember that reading age 10-11 is pretty good and that university level is 14-14. I might be a bit out and am happy to be corrected and perhaps even the figures have changed since 40 years ago.

        But always always questions stats as they are usually twisted by people with an agenda to serve. Keep and open mind and investigate to find the truth wherever it lies and no matter how deeply hidden it is 🙂

        • avensis

          I’ll take it that you’ve had a few beers and will forgive that you’ve missed the point, but enjoy your celebration!

    • cam

      Is there a McCarthy type list of journos that the Smershites keep?
      I realise that Coyote Pete is hell bent on total world domination but banning orders are so cold war!
      Poor auld Shug Keevins, a true Celtic man of the old school,totally baffled that his club have became a byword for paranoia,conspiracy and subterfuge……now he’s an Uncle Tom!!!!
      I sense a witch hunt coming on ,,lets get Traynor!
      I’m sure that the bhoys at the BBC will do their duty.
      Talking of witch hunts,its the “Dougie,Dougie” issue that i never quite grasped and i know i can depend on the Smershites in here to lead me to a conclusion.
      My understanding of that affair was that Dougie was a Grand Master in the masonic conspiracy to cheat the bhoys,that he lied to NL,that he conspired with the Great Satan ,Dallas,that he hung up the linesman to dry,that he was exposed as a hunnite of the first order and was hunted down and despatched.
      The bit i didn’t get was,,,,why award a penalty to Celtic in the first place???

      ps,congrats to Celtic on their win.

      • mick

        @cam ave stopped commenting on your rubbish but a thought a would tonight hailhail vodka and lime top of the group in CL gitruyydosb

      • Cam,
        I’ve seen Hugh proudly wear the scarf at functions, he is a Celtic man.
        But he no longer justifies a desk at a national paper. His type of journo work has evolved but he retired sorta.
        I would still have him on SSB tho. As for Dougie! he was noted as a liar, a liar. He brought down his assist as you correctly state, he involved Dallas, as you correctly state, and then Dallas did the proper thing when he was told the full story by Dougie and the assist, and LIED TO SCOTLAND. He thot he could get away with it.

        We were never paranoid Cam

        • cam

          its fun to listen to him manfully try to keep the debate on track,,,but you didn’t answer my question,,,why did the Dougster not do as instructed at Illuminati hq and ignore the pen claim?
          I think he made an honest mistake in awarding the pen and then realised his windaes were getting blootered and the weans terrorised after the rage virus aka Lenny went tonto

    • ecojon

      @ Maggie

      Thank you for the history lesson which I appreciate but I think you make a great mistake when you try to ascribe American history to explain Hugh Keevins. For a start if you are really serious about looking at Uncle Toms then I think you must really go back further to investigate the role of the British Empire in the slave trade and the economic reasons which drove the politics.

      Returning to Hugh, you must look at the relatively recent times when newspapers didn’t employ Catholics and I don’t mean Catholic journalists here. I mean the whole f****ing indusry because it was controlled by the Masonic-controlled print industries in Scotland.

      Token Catholics were employed to show that discriminaton was not a factor but in reality it is part of Scotland’s shameful history. I would never ever attack Hugh because he took a job under these circumstances. I actually don’t attack him now but I do think he is past it and should retire and that is based on ability and not religion.

      As to Traynor he has never had Hugh’s ability and never been as nice a person, in fact he is a sh*te. He knows that full well and that is why he is so truculent and obnoxious.

      It is easy to attack ‘Uncle Tom’s’ but I always recommend before doing so that you should place yourself in the actual time period and honestly ask yourself whether you would tone down your religion and background to get your toe in the door.

      The Hugh’s of this world have helped change the climate of the media in Scotland in terms of its anti-Cathoiic/Irish culture and now I genuinely believe that religion is no longer a bar to entry. But times have moved on and Hugh should bow-out gracefully and retire. Traynor is a different kettle of fish and should be retired asap.

      • Jono

        Ecojon,

        Never thought i’d mention this in my adult life but your comment touched a nerve….maybe one glass of wine too many tonight…but, in progressing my career in the early years, I was always economic with the truth about schooling and football support (I guess many folks in Glasgow, when asked randomly “what team do you support?” said “Partick Thistle” before we learned to say, “I’m more a rugby guy” as we climbed the ladder.)

        Anyway the relevance of this to Uncle Tom references is that I found my salvation working for US based Multi-national corporations, where being from Glasgow is more about elocution when talking with US folks, and various other nationalities around the globe, than it is about team support or discrimination.

        I understand that discrimination is alive and kicking in US, but all said and done, sometimes removing yourself from the debate allows you to see it for what it is.

        • ecojon

          @ Jono

          I think you have made a wise observation. I know that I am open-minded but it probably wasn’t until I started travelling – firstly down south and then abroad that I gained that detached view that allowed me to see things as they actually were and judge the real moral worth or otherwise of people and their beliefs without an emotional knee-jerk reaction.

    • ecojon

      @ Maggie

      I have replied to you at October 2, 2012 at 8:38 pm

  24. ian lewis

    I stopped reading any of the weegie football press when they started faxing their copy to Parkhead for Big Jock to approve before publication.

  25. mick

    great topic ecojon its great to see you back on the keyboard doing great articles ,the paperchase is hotting up and jabba is having a last throw of the dice before he has to go in the resuffle that is long over due ,its time scotland trawled the unis for new blood to restore faith in our daily sport pages that man is scum and he knows it hes the laughing stock of scotland murrays puddle in the great tax swindle also he is a racist and holds no place in our country moving foward to achieve and bench mark universialisim hes made halve the west coast deluded with his evil lies a would love to view his bank account he must be on a back hander from the sevco and murray, in scotland because of his constant taking the michael sayings a hate him and all he stands for a have never meet encountered some1 so anti irish and celtic as him he has blood on his hands and should be shown the door by the industry he reprasentson a more happier note what will he say now after russia lol(celtic fail to lose in russia)lol jabba your time is up f of back to the sewer you came from he broke the billioniare story at is part to blame for rfc downfall by being lazy

    • ecojon

      @ mick

      I reckon he’ll say that Aiden sold the Spartak jersey 🙂

      I think tonight was one of our best ever results in Europe and what an effort by the team. I don’t want to take anything away from Forres Mechanics here but if Rangers really want to stay in the SFL then fine 🙂

      • mick

        lol it was amazing the night nothing is impossible could we have a newfirm senario on here similiar to utd and the dons euro glory time will tell hope so as well

  26. dan

    Cam, I come on to this site for two reasons. I like the chat, and I like to try and assess the contributors and their opinions. So, correct me if I’m wrong about you. You think you are intelligent?. You think you may make your mark as a writer some day? You think that coming on here with your piffle–for that is what it is—shows us that you are merely flexing your literary muscles? If I am right, then let me do you a favour by suggesting that your penmanship is firmly of the undergraduate variety and has no literary merit whatsoever. You are sad person who really should take stock of their life and try to take a different course. Thank you.

    • ecojon

      @ dan

      cam is a chameleon who tries to hide his sectarian agenda by initially wrapping it in humour. He fails as they all do because they can never ever accept opposing views and they are unable to debate and explain their position. I have never seen one of them attempt to submite a guest post where there bile can be examined by normal people and I think that says all that needs to be said about their sub-culture.

      They would be happier on Leggos Blog but he doesn’t allow anyone to actually comment such is the weakness of his position.

      Personally I find the best thing is just to ignore their nonsense and drivel and live a normal life where people can debate and even if they disagree they can part as friends and not as enemies having gained a greater understanding of an opposing viewpoint. That’s real life where real people dwell and not the dark corners of Billy no-mates who probably don’t even go to Rangers games 🙂

    • mick

      cams that laymen a win most quarrels with him hes deluded and not proud to be laymen unlike myself thats the good thing about the blogs every 1 is welcome and has a placeand if you make sence your welcomed back rfc were scelped in to div 3 by laymen men as well as academic the whole country had a place it was amazing to be part of it

      • cam

        If your posts are an attempt to provide checkable evidence to the DWP for your continual qualification for the higher rate of DLA then i doff my cap for your originality.

    • cam

      Wow you took a wrong turn at Albequerque! Intelligent?writer?literary muscles? I come on here to wind you lot up and quite a few of the pseudos have taken the bait.
      The biggest clown,eco was dealt with early on and is still hurting.He has even stooped through drink, to Phil 3 names’ level and started classing people as sub cultures,his only pal is the site dunce who drifts near the fringes of outright bigotry and offensive behaviour.The truly scary thing is,he does this with the hosts blessing?
      Piffle,waffle and gibberish are my speciality,and a few in here could do with an injection of piffle.Remember chaps/ladies its an internet forum not the floor of the senate,,,the rubbish spouted in here isn’t read by anyone and taken as factual,so lighten up.
      Another chap in here profiled me much more successfully than you Dan,he marked me down as a masochist. If i have gotten up your nose in any way then Agent Blue will rate me even higher.
      Have a wee look at the post above and watch a stalwart of this madhouse label another human being,rascist scum,accuse him of taking back handers,accuse him of being an evil liar,,,,all because he prints an opinion that differs from his.Now that is sad.
      Perhaps the host will give him some advice on how to behave in polite society.

  27. Maggie

    @ jono
    A head teacher I worked with would send for the poorest ability group
    in my P7 class and have them read part of the Daily Record to her.If they
    managed to do this successfully she would pronounce that they would be able to “get by in life” despite my concerns for their progress.
    So on this basis jono I would think your assessment correct.
    Not much of an endorsement for the DR though is it, but correct none the
    less.

    • ecojon

      @ Maggie

      I was watching Red Ed give his speech today and in particular listened to his tribute to his English teacher.

      It took me back to my own schooldays and my English teacher who opened my mind to a whole life beyond the scheme where I existed. He provided me with the dream that helped me escape that grey world and find a new more enlightened world filled with colour and wonder as well as challenges.

      Sadly, the dawn I experienced all those decades ago, seems to be retreating and I fear for the future.

      However, in times past the Daily Record was a fine example of journalism and had the best journos in Scotland and a lot were better than anywhere else in the UK including Fellet Street.

      Sadly those days have gone and basic literacy has declined IMHO.

  28. Maggie

    @ecojon
    Eco you are a poster that I greatly admire,but I do genuinely feel that while
    Hugh Keevins IS many, many miles apart from James Traynor in terms of
    being probably a very decent person and liked by others in his trade,I still
    feel that the Uncle Tom label is very applicable.
    I completely agree with your point about the state of Catholic discrimination
    in the newspaper trade, as members my family were on the receiving end
    of this in other profession.Kudos to Mr Keevins for becoming the success
    that he is. But……. This is the year of Our Lord ( or common era as the politically correct would have us say) 2012. Is it not time now for Mr Keevins to, at the very least, take a leaf out of Traynor’s book ( God help me I can hardly believe that sentence fell from my lips, or keyboard) and
    write,or broadcast SOMETHING in praise of Celtic’s stance in this whole debacle,and in general some positive comment regarding the conduct of the Celtic board,management,players and fans when compared to the marauding hordes of Rangers ( IA) and now Sevco,who noised up
    by the buffoon Charles Green seem to be spoiling for a fight.If, as you say,
    Mr Keevins is past his best,then perhaps it is time to pass the baton to a new generation.
    I completely understand the stance taken by Hugh Keevins. It is the stance mainly taken by his generation,indeed was one taken by my parents and all our parents no doubt……..work hard at school,get a further education,move into the professions,keep your head down,work hard and
    I quote ” don’t give them any reason to say anything about you”.Don’t quite
    hide your allegiances but certainly don’t broadcast them…….sound familiar
    Eco?
    I must admit until recently I would be inclined towards that mode of thinking.I remember spouting the same dictum to my son ( mid twenties) re something
    Neil Lennon said ( genuinely can’t remember what it was) His bemused reply was “why should we” Indeed,why should we,as John Reid said we are no longer going to sit at the back of the bus.I’d love to see Hugh Keevins go out in a blaze of glory by nailing his colours to the wall.
    It was not after all the descendants of the Irish diaspora who defrauded
    their adopted nation of nearly 100 million pounds.We did indeed work hard,got ourselves an education and moved into the professional classes AND paid our taxes.

    • ecojon

      @ Maggie

      Firstly let me ask – have you got red hair 🙂

      Hugh is part of a generational progression and without the Uncle Tom’s we would not have progressed. When I say ‘we’ I do not refer tio Catholics or to the Irish – I refer to any economic migrants who land on our shores.

      By keeping the head down and getting a slightly better job they create a space just above a mere existance level. This allows their kids to have the luxury of study and staying on at school rather than having to start working asap to augment family finances.

      These Scottish Uncle Tom’s lived a fairly lonely life in that, in the main, there was no understanding or support for their ‘separateness’ from anyone. They really did plough a lonely furrow to advance their children’s future as their only reward.

      If they had just carried on at the most basic labouring jobs, like a lot of others, then they would have had a fellowship with fellow workers. But at least they had their faith and religiion which provided a moral compass of sorts. I am nor great defender of the Catholic Church or of any religion. But that doesn’t blind me to the importance of these institutions and the force for good they can be if enlightened.

      I disagree with you that a just Scottish society rests on Hugh making a statement of support for Celtic. Our aims as free-thinking, open mided and open-hearted Scots must soar way beyong the confines of a football club.

      Our Uncle Toms didn’t make their sacrifices for such a narrow goal – Maggie I must implore you to strive further and higher or I will need to mark you down 🙂

      • ecojon

        I should add that I am well versed with the history of the Irish – Protestant and Catholic influx to Scotland following the famines – but in personal terms have experienced the 1950s wave of Indian and Pakistanis who came to Glasgow seeking a new life.

        There is actually very little difference between the ‘waves’ here in Glasgow or inded throughout the world including Scots who left their native soilf in search of better lives.

    • mick

      well said maggie were driving the bus now and there left standing as it drive past them going throw a puddle at great speed and soaking them its ozimandias for them scotlands universial and there holding us back from bench marking fairness

      • ecojon

        @ mick

        Even the bus driver should watch for lost souls on the road and be prepared to carry them further along the journey of life in the hope that they too might find an inner balance and peace with others.

  29. Maggie

    @ ecojon re Ed Milliband speech
    Ah! The power of a good education in a “Faith” school.I like to refer to our schools in this way as it seems it confuses those who would denigrate them as some sort of madrassa where we plot to overthrow “the peepul”.
    I’m sure you will agree that the single best thing the Catholic hierarchy ever did for us was establishing our own schools.I am still incredulous to how they managed to get it into law.When I think about it now as I write this,I can imagine the reaction of the “establishment” at the time….. Brilliant!!! they may have exclaimed,we don’t have to mix with those poor Irish and Italian Immigrants,or words to that effect.Big Mistake! Huge! Massive! If only they had been in possession of a crystal ball to see the results today of that “Faith” school education, indeed Eco,where would any of us have been without those inspirational “Faith”teachers,who cajoled,nagged and then guided us into university courses or jobs suited to our talents and abilities.I salute them all.

    • ecojon

      @ Maggie

      Sorry to disappoint but my Faith School, in terms of the English teacher I mentioned, was a Proddy one 🙂

      Although I have also had a Catholic Educaton – we have many times had the separate schools argument here and in general I would always go for one inclusive and equal system.

      However, Catholics didn’t have that luxury and of necessity required to establish a separate educational system and it has been so successful that non-Catholic parents even buy homes in desirable cachment areas to get places for their kids. Modern Uncle and Aunt Toms perhaps 🙂

  30. JimBhoy

    @cam i often like what you say and this is probably no different albeit 45 year old guy running about coaching 14 yr olds is maybe daft, that’s me. Suffer for my love of the game// just watched the Celtic, game, Celtic man as you know pal… Question for ya though… Does Traynor ring your bell, I am not really impressed with much i read on the paper sites but he seems to be a bit of an ahole…!..

    • ecojon

      @ JimBhoy

      I reckon the only bell that Traynor rings is one marked Pavlov’s Dog an that only because on the succulent lamb on offer 🙂

    • cam

      Traynor is an eejit.His job is to be controversial and sell papers,most of his work is akin to graffiti and if people read it and then feel like writing to the editor or picking up the phone then its mission accomplished by him.
      If you look at old papers where the sports writers just reported the event and didn’t start giving/forcing their views on everything from politics to pancakes,life was much simpler.
      I don’t need a guy with a hidden agenda to interfere with my unshakeable belief that the Gers are a work of a higher being.
      Everything that has gone wrong with football,education,philosophy and frisbee throwing can be traced back to that awful moment when Opal Fruits were renamed Starburst,,,check it,,its all there.

  31. JimBhoy

    @Maggie see my posts from a few weeks past, each to their own…IMO From what I am seeing in a ton of boys footie is that catholic schools is a bit of a bit of a misnomer, many non catholics, I hope this is a trend, go to catholic schools… I really dislike the association, kids are kids…!

  32. Maggie

    @ecojon
    Eco you’re preaching to the converted here,I totally agree with your sentiments re the progression of the generations of immigrants,hence my comments about keep your head down etc.My point re Hugh Keevins is
    as it is now 2012 and we no longer have to keep our heads down,sit at the back of the bus etc that perhaps Hugh could throw caution to the wind, have the courage of his convictions and just “Go for it”
    I also have great respect and admiration for the Asian,Chinese,Italian and all immigrants to this country.Their industry,devotion to family and their contributions to their community and society in general is more than highly commendable. They, like the Irish diaspora have succeeded in becoming upwardly mobile and enriching our society beyond the dreams we all had in our grey world of the scheme Eco,so enough already lol. :-))))))
    Let’s rejoice in the great victory tonight,tho I fear for my bhoys’ ( husband,son and son in law) heads domani ( multicultural Scotland)

    @ mick …….. You’re the legend that inspired me to start posting.
    Pie gate is a work of genius.Hail hail.

  33. Maggie

    @ Jimbhoy,
    Totally agree that Catholic schools are now a total misnomer and like you
    am inclined to think that they will eventually become very much non denominational as parents of many religions and none choose them for their merit.They may very well just quietly integrate into the system without anyone having to “do away with them” which as you can imagine would cause an almighty brouhaha.I have absolutely no problem with that.Like you say, kids are kids and every one of them deserves to reach their full potential.
    My point to Eco about Faith schools was based on my generation and previous generations when things were more difficult in terms of succeeding in finding and progressing in a career and the work done by
    the schools then was invaluable in helping us move onward and upward in society.My children( mid and late twenties) would never think about
    hiding who they were and indeed both say they have never encountered ANY form of sectarian discrimination or been on the receiving end of any
    snide or underhand comments.They both find it archaic and puzzling that such attitudes were so widely prevalent. So job done I think.

  34. JimBhoy

    ooops sory the regulars here know i love Luke Kelly… i dont think your kids should hide anyways…baron greenback rocks love what he does for the Celtic….
    faith schools i thought had 25% non catholics but my kids say different. higher. i wont argue! sorry lazy answer, tough day!

  35. JimBhoy


    my old proddie pal said luke kelly was the man….god rest both their souls

  36. CJ

    Right, for a start, The Darkside? Oh come on children.
    Is this a Celtic Fans Forum or a legal musings blog?
    Also, there seems to be a misplaced reaction to Traynor’s piece. All of the above posters seem to assume that the inference was that the tax authorities should go after the unnamed clubs over image rights. My interpretatation of the article was that, in order to show an even handed approach and, dare I say it, integrity, the football authorities needed to look at image rights as a potential side contract not declared. Yes this would, if pursued, also catch Rangers. If Rangers are found to have contravened SPL rules and punishments are forthcoming, then I would assume that a legal challenge would be made as non-contractual payments are/were apparently widespread in Scottish Football(this part of the oft quoted Hugh Adam “confession” is ignored by agenda driven zealots).
    I have read a few blogs recently referring to a Pandora’s Box which is possiby very apt.
    It sounds as if Scottish football needs a complete body cavity search for all clubs, not just the “Darkside” because if it ends up in court then players, agents, directors and club officials will be under oath. As Traynor has stated, surely not only Rangers are capable of finacial jiggery-pokery. Could be very messy and prolonged.
    What I thought you guys would be all over is the statements he made about the process being driven by influential individuals or should that be singular.
    To (mis)quote the desperate man, left to defend Rangers single handedly against a pack of wolves that knew there was no board in place to defend against an orchestrated attack, “Who is this person? We deserve to know.”
    (I think I do).
    Many think (and wish) this will be the final nail in Rangers coffin but in reality this is just kicking a hornets nest.
    Rangers, if found guilty, should be punished and rightly so but if a blind eye is being turned to other forms of “financial doping” then I don’t think this will just be meekly accepted by the club or the fans. Some people have gone to great lengths to unearth dodgy dealings by Rangers using what should have been confidential information and this was brought to the fore in such even handed vehicles such as the RTC blog. Well I suppose it’s unthinkable that the “Darkside” supporters will not resort to a similar sort of rigorous investigative work given their lack of all traces of human decency. Then again, perhaps Mr Traynor has gone in to print knowing that a similar storm is brewing anyway? Don’t think they want to be left behind by internet bampots again.

    • ecojon

      @ CJ

      When has it ever mattered to Rangers that no Board was in place because even when they had a Board then all they did was eat the soculent lamb and sleep it off in the director’s box. They certainly never ever contradicted any pro-tem Dear Leader as far as I am aware.

      However, HMRC are judged ion results and the big tax money that could be clawed-back was in the premiership so that’s basically where they have been concentrating in recent years.

      What you seem to miss is that the FA have been co-operating with Hector and it appears that both have hammered out a reasonable formula over tax liabilities. They will at some stage liaise with the SFA, look at Scottish clubs, use the same formula and ‘catch’ a fairly paltry amount of tax.

      It is hard to be definitive as to whether payments for image rights constitute a side-contract or not as we don’t know the details of the FA/HMRC agreement. But as the payments aren’t made to the player but to a Ltd company, many of which are offshore, and don’t represent payments to reward footballing prowess I think it might be difficult to view that side contracts exist that breach SFA rules. Especially when you remember that the case brought by HMRC, to have image rights payments subject to tax deduction at source, ruled against Hector and found the payments were: ‘excluded under income tax legislation’.

      Apparently the standard FA player’s contract cedes a player’s image rights to the club. Obviously football agents are now very savvy to that and for a number of years have varied the contract clause or if a players wishes to make separate arrangements they have struck it out. Club’s have allowed this, dependant on the player, which I think illustrates their weak position as well as that of the taxman.

      I don’t know what the SFA player’s contract pro forma is like but it may well play a part in determination of any secondary-contract issue although as I say I don’t think the argument holds water in any case.

      I have to say I don’t actually have a clue who the ‘individual’ you refer to actually is and am also unclear as to the ‘hornet’s nest’ reference. But I am clearer or financial doping and in Traynor’s rather hysterical rant I can find a shred of evidence to substantiate that image rights payments amount to ‘financial doping’. How can it when the criteria for payments really has only the most tenuous link to activity on the field of play and is so dependent on the ‘marketability’ of the individual concerned.

      I see that a fellow internet bampot has raised the issue of what tax Mr Traynor is paying on his own earnings from TV and radio and whether tax is deducted at source rather than being paid gross into a Ltd compamy called Skoosh Productions – you couldn’t make it up could you.

      But I suppose it is an acceptable question if the Voice of Fitba wishes to question other entertainers on the same subject – with regard to Traynor I think he only qualifies very loosely as an entertainer and that is at the bitter comedic end of the spectrum.

      • cj

        Let’s forget about hmrc, the issue Jim traynor refers to in his article is whether the FOOTBALL authorities should look in to all non contractual payments be they image rights based on marketability of individuals or discretionary payments via ebts. It is all payment not listed on the main contract so if a proper and full process of investigation is seen to be done then surely all forms of extra payment need to be declared. Hmrc will be going after players, agents and directors over the ebts which for me is a separate issue. It has to be as the chances are that the spl which hunt will request that a public burning takes place prior to the ftt outcome being made public.
        The image rights may have been properly declared but while there remains doubt, let’s get it out there and clear it up.
        The hornets best to which I referred is a docile support have been awoken from their slumber with a real or imagined cause. There will be forensic investigation to the level of rtc but don’t worry because only rangers are bad lads.

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