Did Scottish Weavers teach Revolution to the Russians as well as football? – by Ecojon

A bemused Russian press first reported football being played in 1868 by British Residents of St Petersburg, the Tzarist Capital which provided Russia’s ‘Window on the West’. The British ‘colony’ centred their sporting and leisure activities at the Imperial River Yacht Club on Krestovsky Island but had to rely on crews from visiting British ships to provide opposition teams. Interestingly British sailors were reported as early as 1860 playing football in the Black Sea naval base of Odessa.


The body of ‘Mad Monk’ Rasputin was recovered beneath river ice near the island in December 1916 and in recent times the finger of suspicion for his murder has been pointed at the British Secret Intelligence Service.

St Petersburg’s first football club ‘Viktoria’ surfaced in 1894 with English and German players to be joined by the ‘Scottish Circle of Amateurs’ – ‘English Football Club’ – ‘Germania FC’ and ‘Gloria’ with their teams drawn from the various diplomatic missions and ex-pat business communities.

A major break-through came just two years when a Frenchman first published the rules of the game in Russian leading to the formation of ‘SPORT’ (St Petersburg Circle of Amateur Sportsmen) the first Russian team followed by ‘Petrograd’ (old name for St Petersburg) who were beaten 6-0 on Vasilievsky Island, in October 1897, by the mainly English ‘Ostrov’ (Island) team.

By 1901 the city’s first league was born mainly of ‘works’ teams from the huge weaving mills. Management encouraged the move as a distraction to the normal heavy drinking of their workforces on Sundays when factories closed.

And to prove there’s nothing new under the sun The Auld Enemy battles, which began in 1872 at the West of Scotland Cricket Ground in Glasgow, were re-enacted in St Petersburg with the predominantly English ‘Nevsky’ team from the Neva Spinning Mill pitted against the exclusively Scottish ‘Nevka’ whose team worked in Sampson Weaving Mill.

Indeed, in 1901, the Nevka Scots won the first-ever St Petersburg Football League Championship. Their line-up in the first league match against ‘Viktoria’ – which had a mix of English, German and Russian players – was: Sewell, Gilchrist, Sharples, Crompton, Fletcher, D. Hargreaves (capt), Gerard, Haines, F. Hargreaves, Small, Boyle.

In 1903 the stage was set for the first International Football Incident when ‘Sport’ protested vigorously that no Russian had ever been picked to play in a representative St Petersburg XI. (Shades of Craig Levein can’t but spring to mind).

Tension simmered that year until a game between Sport (Russian) and Nevsky (English) when a Russian player was sent-off and banned for a year for his reaction to a vicious English tackle and attempt to choke him. Outraged Russian MSM called on the Russian teams to leave the League to form their own and thundered: ‘This year we have Sharples the throttler! In future we shall probably have Jim the stabber and Jack the Ripper! Match reports will be crime reports’. I wonder if ‘Jimmy’ was a Scot :)

By 1904 the three-team ‘Foreign’ League was joined by three Russian teams in the shape of Sport, Petrovsky and Nationsaly and an uneasy truce prevailed until 1908.

But feelings again boiled over after an English player was sent-off and the aptly named ‘New Times’ local paper blasted him for not just a blatant infringement of football rules but for breaching: ‘Rules of normal civility adhered to by educated people’.

His ‘crime’ wasn’t reported but it must have been a shocker and with a name like ‘Monroe’ I reckon he was a Scot anyway :) The local paper reported Russian fans ‘hissing’ him off while the English support ‘made a terrible din and clamoured for his return’. Later that year ‘Sport’ became the first Russian team to win the St Petersburg League’s Aspeden Cup – originally donated by an English businessman.

It was all too much for the three foreign teams who quit the St Petersburg League in 1909 to form the ‘Russian Society of Amateur Footballers’ in a move that was echoed by the Moscow ex-pat teams. Russian teams ignored the new grouping and concentrated on building their own teams and leagues and by 1911 the ex-pat breakaway crumbled and they joined the Russian Leagues.

But, from that moment on, the ‘Foreign’ teams never won another Russian Footballing Championship and the home-grown teams grew stronger and spread throughout All of the Russias. More importantly the aristocratic basis on which Russian football was originally based started to take-on a much more working-class hue with the arrival of native players from the factories enthusiastically supported by fellow workers who saw that the all-conquering foreigners could be beaten.

THE SCOTTISH FOUNDING FATHER OF RUSSIAN FOOTBALL

Arthur McPherson, a timber merchant and stock exchange dealer, was born in St Petersburg of Scottish parents and was the leading light in promoting football as chairman of the city’s football league in 1903-1905 and 1912-1913. He was also Founder President of the Russian Football Federation from 1912-13. Sadly he was imprisoned following the 1917 October Revolution and died two years later in jail from typhoid.

Amazingly McPherson had also formed the Krestovsky Lawn Tennis Club; was first chairman of the All-Russian Lawn Tennis Union and his sons were among the first Russian tennis champions – a recent graduate of their old club is the well-known champion Svetlana Kuznetsova.

The new Zenit Stadium, currently being built on Krestovsky Island island will help host the 2018 World Cup in Russia and provide a direct link back to the very beginnings of football in the country. I can assure my Blue Friends that I tried hard to establish whether the ‘Nevka Scots’ were one of the local predecessor teams which formed Zenit but failed – the mystery as to whether they were Calton or Bridgeton weavers remains unanswered.

There is another piece of shared Scottish/Petersburg football history: The 2007-2008 UEFA Cup Final – I haven’t given the result in case it offends some of our more sensitive blog brethren :)

There’s a decent-enough Biog on McPherson at:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/vladimir-putin-honours-the-scot-who-1114506

I missed the story earlier this year and was really pleased to read how Vladimir Putin hailed McPherson in January this year at a celebration dinner mark the Russian Football Union Centenary attended by FIFA chief Sepp Blatter and UEFA boss Michel Platini.

His grandfather Murdoch who hailed from Perth, was an engineer and part-owner of a Clyde shipyard, and emigrated to St Petersburg in the late 1830s after building a yacht for the Russian Imperial Family and in 1856 he founded the world-famous Baltic Shipyard which built some of the Russian Navy’s best-known ships.

The Scottish mill workers in St Petersburg were the sons of Scottish weavers possibly from Strathaven, Condorrat, Bridgeton and The Calton who supported the radicalist upsurge which followed the Peterloo Massacre in 1819 and led to the brutally suppressed 1820 Rising in their native land with the execution of weavers’ leaders: James Wilson, Andrew Hardie and John Baird whose martyrdom helped fuel the later Chartist and Socialist Movements. Others were killed in clashes with troops and more weavers transported to Australia.

St Petersburg’s English weavers came mainly from Lancashire with their own history of oppression rooted in the slaughter by mounted dragoons at Peterloo in Manchester.

All-in-all it doesn’t surprise me that Russian mill workers in St Petersburg were extremely active in the city’s pivotal revolutionary activities leading to the overthrow of the Romanov regime by the Bolsheviks. Female mill workers were extremely politically active in St Petersburg and women were known to spectate at football matches in large numbers and actually play the game as well.

Paisley Tartan Army have an excellent piece on the 1820 Rising at: http://www.thesonsofscotland.co.uk/the1820rising.htm

There’s no doubt that football has always been important to St Petersburg but possibly never more so than during the bloody 900 day Siege of Leningrad (St Petersburg) when the embattled defenders showed their total disdain for Nazi attackers by holding a football tournament in May 1942. The Russian death toll is unknown although estimates claim up to 1.5 million may have died.

Posted by Ecojon

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91 Comments

Filed under Football, Guest Posts, History

91 responses to “Did Scottish Weavers teach Revolution to the Russians as well as football? – by Ecojon

  1. Violet Carson

    I don’t come on here to read articles about dead Scotsmen spreading football to Russia nor the tax implications of whatever. And, I am the poorer for it. Great reads both Ecojon and Carl. I thought I would say this before you receive the next 50 comments on that nice Mr Whyte. As someone else says ‘the gift that keeps on giving’. I am contemplating a piece on mango farming in Malawi. Pip! Pip!

    • Violet, think Paul was inferring, and I may be wrong as I often am, that the Scots spread the spirit of revolution as much as football, my how things change eh?

      • ecojon

        @ michaelk1888

        I would be amazed if there weren’t some Scots involved in the pre-revolutionary activities and to be honest I don’t actually think we have totally lost that spark. But times change there is no doubt about that and it is harder to mobilise against social injustice.

        Deep inside I fully recognise that the influence of football in every part of the world has been enormous, especially in the early formative years, as it spread along with the British Empire as well as capitalism.

        An intriguing aspect of the adoption of football in far-flung lands is whether the local populations aped the original English upper middle class public school model or whether the lower classes were the driving force behind it.

        And then the transition period when the toffs were displaced by the factory workers who early one realised it could provide escape from the dark satanic mills.

        But social and economic history is poorly recorded in the main and we are left with Kings & Queens, the powerful, the rich and the politicians as the ‘role models’ left behind – no wonder we are in such a mess today.

        • Agreed EJ

          I love the stories of Queen Margaret watching them play “fitba” in Linlithgow High Street many moons ago, don t know that it was an engerland game in origin, but yes I believe the social equality was and good “bred in ” trate of the Scots although it seems to have diminished in recent times.

    • ecojon

      @ Violet Carson

      You should check who started the football in Malawi and also the mango growing :)

  2. mick

    Many women fought on the Soviet side, or were under fire. At the beginning of the battle there were 75,000 women and girls from the Stalingrad area who had finished military or medical training, and all of whom were to serve in the battle.[59] Women staffed a great many of the anti-aircraft batteries that fought not only the Luftwaffe but German tanks.[60] Soviet nurses not only treated wounded men under fire but were involved in the highly dangerous work of bringing wounded soldiers back to the hospitals under enemy fire.[61] Many of the Soviet wireless and telephone operators were women who often suffered heavy casualties when their command posts came under fire.[62] Though women were not usually trained as infantry, many Soviet women fought as machine gunners, mortar operators, and scouts.[63] Women were also snipers at Stalingrad.[64] Three air regiments at Stalingrad were entirely female.[63] At least three women won the title Hero of the Soviet Union while driving tanks at Stalingrad

    just flicking throw on the russian war what a satistic if it wasent for the girl power in russia we might all have been texting in german just now

    • Without a doubt, despite Stalin’s tyranny, it was the strength and sacrifice of the Red Army that defeated the Nazis. The other Allied countries were nowhere near strong enough to take the fight to Europe without the massive Soviet fightback. Don’t forget most of Western Europe could have been texting in Russian now, if Stalin hadn’t been let in on the outcome of the Manhattan Project and that the Americans had developed the Atomic bomb. In some quarters it is believed he intended to just to keep the Soviet Forces trundling on capturing as much ground as they could until the Allies stopped them or sued for peace.

      • ecojon

        @ hawkeyethegnu

        I have no doubt that that was Stalin’s plan and I have really no idea why he didn’t keep going – glad he didn’t. But it must have been very close run.

  3. spasiba comrade Paul ochen harisho

    They still play football in Odessa today but not with a football……!!

    need to write something warm and positive after my last 2 or 3 comments have bombed…no reference to the above or Serbia….and only just managed a few TU…..not good for the moral you know but at least people read them I suppose :)

    das vendaniya comrades

    • mick

      The Rangers Chief Executive said: “Yet again Craig Whyte’s version of events paints a misleading picture of what actually happened and it’s regrettable that the BBC is providing him with such a platform.

      “The facts are that direct contact was made by our consortium with Craig Whyte in the first instance as it appeared at that time that his shares would have to be secured in order for any purchase of the Club to progress.

      “I was not present when contact was initially made but subsequently met Craig Whyte who introduced me to the administrator.

      “I had no previous association with Craig Whyte and it is misleading to suggest he ‘brought us in’.

      “I was brought to the transaction by Imran Ahmad following Duff and Phelps contacting Zeus Capital in February, due to their experience in the football sector.“

      • ecojon

        @ mick

        Why tell us? Go and sue Craigie :)

        • ecojon

          @ mick

          Just in case of confusion – my earlier comment was aimed at chico not your guidself.

          • Had a quick look at D&P’s report of 4th April. In the section dealing with the sale of the business and assets, they say:

            “9.2 Contact has also been made with parties who were known to have previously expressed an interest in acquiring businesses in similar and associated sectors to ensure that they were made aware of the opportunity to acquire the Club and/or the business as a going concern.”

            seems broadly consistent with Green’s statement that D&P contacted Zeus, but I’ll be interested to see Whyte’s interview in full.

    • mick

      @michael a have had more thumps down today than a judgment on a defeated gladiator but am not hanging up my keyboard just yet as a feel a storm coming on

    • ecojon

      @ michaelk1888

      Ah I can taste the Baltika now – what a beer and in so many different strengths – had many a hangover with it :)

      Did any Russians ever pull the Stalin’s Blood wine trick on your Michael?

      And of course the Irn Bru factory in Moscva – pure deid brilliant! I worked there as Communism was collapsing and perestroika little more than a hope – a very strange time for the Russian people who are so like the Scots in many ways including a wierd and warped sense of humour :)

      • Been tricked many times and yes they really are a fantastic people as are the Ukrainians split my time between Ukraine and the middle east now popping back to see CFC sorry family and friends.

        They are just like us in many ways which is why its comfortable, 20p for a pint of Stella now that can t be bad can it? and local pivo is cheaper. don t get me talking about the Voddie…..:)

        The wine is good if a little on the sweet side……

        Good sincere and hard people and they love the Scots as well…!!

        • ecojon

          @ michaelk1888

          The Stalin Blood one is a joke they play on westerners. There is a wine of that name and it’s deep red and fruity. So I’m tanking it and eventually go to the toilet and I’m p*ssing blood. I was seven hours from Moscva and absolutely sh*t myself wondering when the first flight out to Amsterdam would leave Shermetyevo in the morning.

          I didn’t say anything but quite a few people were asking if I was feeling OK and telling me I was looking pale. They kept it up for a bit and then I said I needed to leave for Moscva and go and get the first train. That’s when the all burst out laughing and explained that I wasn’t bleeding it was just the wine passed right through and stayed red.

          So I know exactly what you mean by ‘tricked’ and they wouldn’t give me real vodka just jenshena vodka – sorry don’t have cyrillic on here.

          Only place I’ve spent time in Ukraine is Odessa quite a few times and that morning flight from Kiev with drunken ex Mig fighter pilots was the hairiest thing I’ve ever done. I even got off the plane once and took a taxi to Odessa in a blizzard rather than chance it. Usually took the train back as no time pressure heading back and loved the tune they played for the evening train all about a wife saying goodbye to her young husband heading to defend Stalingrad from which he never returned – martial but haunting at the same time.

          But they are great people and I think the reason I felt so at home was it was so like Scotland in the 40s and early 50s – everyone had to do a turn at singing, poetry, storytelling. And now I’m thinking of it, having to eat that sun-dried red fish which was regarded as an absolute delicacy – I hated it. I have wanted to go back for a long time to see the place again but am so scared it might ruin my memories of people who had nothing in worldy terms but so much else which they gladly shared. And you’re right they loved the Scots, didn’t take to the English and hated the Germans.

  4. I really enjoyed your piece Ecojon. I had no idea about the weavers and St. Petersburg, but was aware of very strong Scottish, mainly East coast, trading and industrial links all throughout the Baltic Sea. I believe the Baltic Countries all had thriving Scottish merchant communities, wool and textiles being very important export for Scotland, salt herring and coal too. Elsinor in Denmark where Hamlet is based, had a very strong Scottish connection going back centuries, don’t know if they played fitba’ though.
    Anyway that Craig Whyte…….

    • ecojon

      @ hawkeyethegnu

      Right on the money there was the same spread of football in all of these places and in fact I think one of Russia’s very first internationals was against Finland who beat them and this wasn’t that long after Finland had managed to break-away from Russia.

    • ecojon

      @ mick

      Restructuring partner David Grier rejected claims that Duff and Phelps was aware that Mr Whyte was using the money from the London ticketing firm to wipe out the club’s £18m debt and claimed that the insolvency practitioners, who were advising Mr Whyte on the takeover at the time, believed discussions with Ticketus were for short term working capital.

      Totally correct! It turned out to be very short-term working capital :)

  5. Budweiser

    @ ecojon,

    Very interesting piece eco. For anyone looking for further info. on the 1820 rebellion I recommend;-’The Scottish Insurrection Of 1820′ by Peter Beresford and Seumas Mac A’ Ghobainn. Just a quick query eco. Do you know whether the co-author Seumas could be a relative of Phil Mac G or is it just a name similarity?

    • ecojon

      @ Budweiser

      I’m not sure if there is any connection or not.

      But the whole 1820 affair is fascinating in the way that Government spies and agent provocateurs were used. A very important part of our social and political history which is sadly neglected.

  6. mick

    Blue Pitch Holdings are a company formed by Stoy Hayward of BDO. surely bdo are not involved as well ????

    • ecojon

      @ mick

      I hope they are cos it means they already own newco rangers and all its assets – pretty neat move :)

    • ecojon

      @ mick

      This has come from loon tune:

      GIOVANNI DI STEFANO GIOVANNI DI STEFANO ‏@DEVILSADVOKAT

      Blue Pitch Holdings are a company formed by clients of BDO Stoy Hayward whose aims are to make short term investments and acquire assets
      —————————————————————————————-
      Blue Pitch Holdings certainly appears to be an investment vehicle for some of the Rangers mystery investors. There appear to be two
      possibilities – it is clients or associates of Zeus Capital or it is the Middle eastern grouping of investors allegedly fronted by Naqvi.

      It has nothing to do with BDO and they couldn’t be involved in the Rangers liquidation if it did.

  7. ecojon

    D&P quote of the day: “As administrators, our primary statutory function was to ensure Rangers continued as a business and this was achieved”.

    Ah think the rest of us have kinda got that message as time went by it was just that we thought your primary concern should have been the ordinary creditors who were dunned out of their cash and who were the real victims here.

    • mick

      @ecojon its all down to what factual evidence the bbc scotland have to back up whytes cliam so far its been played down by green looks to me d&ps are crapping it and rushed a statement out for bdo to step in lord hodge will be well tuned in tonight they have shafted the fans and small creditors and whyte knows it and green is lying throw his teeth its on at 630 then 11pm so by midnight we can see a clearer pic of the evidence the sevco are blaming peter lawwell lol were do they get there thoughts mad or what

      • ecojon

        @ mick

        The BBC might only have craigie’s word on it and tbh if I was a journalist I would want more than that prefereably on paper to prove the alleged connection.

        D&P could argue that by approaching Zeus they were only trying to maximise the price achieveable for the assets. So I won’t actually hold my breath at the moment till I see what evidence there is.

        But purely just on the story front and public interest from all sides it’s a cracker. I think you can bet your flotation pledge that any sevco boycott of the BBC won’t start tonight. And if it does the sevcoites will be drawing the curtains, switching the lights off and watching the Beeb wi a blanket over their heid and the TV :)

        I can hear them now on the fan forums.

        Whit me? Naw a never watched it – aw ta*g p*sh!

        And then some idiot will start pasting quotes from it and be branded a Timmy. And of course the inevitable boycott will be put in place and the mass letter camapign to the Scottish Government.

        One day the might actually wake up and realise it’s not that nobody likes them but it’s fast getting to the stage that nobody cares about their amateur theatrics.

        Btw is there any media organisation they haven’t boycotted yet? Ah know they still buy the SCO to light the fire but they’ll no be able tae afford coal wi the price o the shares so that’ll get hit as well :)

    • Martin

      Ecojon,

      If D&P had achieved a continuation of the business the ordinary creditors could still have been paid (over time). Alas the business they refer to is being liquidated.

  8. mick

    whyte must have clear evidence to back his cliam as the bbc are well monitored via legal minds so we know its factual and real bbc scotland have been spot on throw this

    • Martin

      Mick,

      In an interview they bbc have nothing to worry about legally. You can point a camera and mic at anyone and let them ramble on.

      If Whyte makes claims the legal concerns are his alone :)

      • ecojon

        @ Martin

        I’m afraid that I totally disagree on that one Martin as they would be equally liable as they had disseminated a falsehood if that were the case. The Beeb would also be expected to be aware of the scathing rebuke Craigie suffered at the hands of a Scottish judge over his ability to recognise the truth let alone tell it.

        • mick

          a feel that to ecojon they are liabile if not true even papers

        • Martin

          Ecojon,

          you may well be right. It is IMHO in the public interest to have the interview. Statements made durring the interview (even false statements ) are owned by the person making them.

          This is not dissemination of the claim being made. It is reporting that the claim has been made.

          • ecojon

            @ Martin

            Without checking – my memory is that the author of a defamation is the person who makes the original defamatory statement and if a TV company or newspaper repeats it then they are guilty, in turn, of publishing the defamation although I believe it has to then be heard/read by a third party although in this case I don’t think there’s any argument about that :)

            A curious thing is that you can make a defamatory statement about someone as long as it is true. It isn’t the defamatory statement that is actionable it is whether it is true or not so an absolute defence if someone claims you have made a defamatory statement is Veritas (True).

            It’s quite a complex area but trust me transmission is just as actionable and the problem is that what is regarded as defamatory is an ever-changing concept and what might be held to be defamatory when used against one individual might not be when used against another.

            • Martin

              ecojon,

              you make an interesting point, and it is complex.

              However at every political party conference delegates are broadcast on TV.

              The get out for the broadcaster is that each delegate stansd liable for any comment they make.

              The broadcaster is reporting that the comment was made.

              Without this being accepted, no party conference could ever be broadcast on TV. :)

            • ecojon

              @ Martin

              I suggest you do a cuts check and I’m sure you will see that I am correct in this. Of course every delegate is liable for what they say and I would think the days have gone when anyone at a party political conference from a mainstream party would say anything that would be defamatory.

              I don’t know how much more clearly I can say that if someone makes a defamatory statement and a broadcaster repeats it then the broadcaster is guilty of the same defamation offence. Often in a high-risk situation a delay is built-in which isn’t just for swear words but to ensure a defamatory statement can be caught.

              But that could work against a broadcaster in a sense because if it fails the fact that it existed proves the broadcaster had anticipated a high risk situation.

              There is no get out for broadcasters or reporters.

  9. Violet Carson

    Mick

    I have a feeling that this site will be jumping around midnight, but alas some of us will be abed. Mind you, if Rep. Scotland really get stuck into it, I might be on the coffee and fags until dawn. I feel like a child waiting for Santa.

    • mick

      @violet me to its the scoop of the year the beeb done the ebts now this its factual green and d&ps have rushed out statements via pr and not faced cameras thats the actions of men panicing its comedy gold whytes a loveable rogue sevco hate him but the rest of scotland think hes great its unreal that grown men can put a comedy type villian from old footie club on a pedistool its amazing ,santa criag a could hardly sleep last night wondering who had the scoop when a heard chris at beeb a said this is big

      • mick

        we might have to wait till late to copy and paste the video of the show the news will be online after show am thinking they will want it up quick for hit rateings thommos blog was at 100,000 last a heard this will take bbc scotlands hits throw the roof it would be so funny if he was sitting with a green tie on lol

    • ecojon

      @ Violet Carson

      I hate to be a dismal Jimmie but it may all just end being a jolly jape if there is no hard evidence – not to say Craigie isn’t telling the truth but the effect will be weakened without hard evidence.

  10. mcfc

    Like rats fighting in a sack – none will come out intact.

    Here are some exercises to get you in the right frame of mind to judge who’s lying least – it’s going to get complicated – and I’m lovin’ it.!

    Paradox Examples
    1. Liar Paradox (Epimenides Paradox)

    This is a well known paradox written by the great stoical logician Chrysippos. The poet, grammarian and critic Philetus of Cos was said to have died of exhaustion attempting to resolve it.

    1. A Cretan sails to Greece and says to some Greek men who are standing upon the shore: “All Cretans are liars.” Did he speak the truth, or did he lie?
    2. A week later, the Cretan sailed to Greece again and said: “All Cretans are liars and all I say is the truth.” Although the Greeks on the shore weren’t aware of what he had said the first time, they were truly puzzled.

    If someone says “I always lie”, are they telling the truth? Or are they lying?

    2. Double Liar Paradox (Jourdain’s paradox)

    This version of a famous paradox was presented by English mathematician P. E. B. Jourdain in 1913.
    The following is written on opposite sides of a card:

    Back side:
    THE SENTENCE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS CARD IS TRUE.

    Face side:
    THE SENTENCE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS CARD IS FALSE.

    courtesy of http://brainden.com/paradoxes.htm

  11. mick

    @mcfc a will leave that comment to ecojon hes our top resident classical studies expert

    @mcfc what do you make of today developements big news

  12. mcfc

    @mick

    Based on no evidence at all, I have a feeling that Craig has been negotiating a deal with HMRC and others to save his skin – or at least some of it.
    I can only speculate that he’d take that route out of fear that things were closing in legally or out of anger that he was about to be stiffed buy Green and co.
    Remember Alex Thomson talking about HMRC delays and their unwilling to identify witnesses. Just a thought.
    I’ve been waiting impatiently for the grown-up to take control (HMRC, BDO, SFO) and end all this childish scheming and name calling – looks like it’s happening in spades and quickly – could all be over by Christmas – then what will we do?

    enjoy :-)

    • ecojon

      @ mcfc

      I think you speak in paradoxes :)

      It will never be over by Xmas – I’ll have a chance to row to Greece and back before this one ends. I have no doubt that something is either creating a great deal of pressure on craigie or he wants to dish dirt knowing he’s either going down or being put right in the frame by others.

      I have always felt that craigie was meant to be a cut-out for others and/or possibly to engineer a ‘beneficial’ sale. But I think he just went ‘native’ and actually believed he really did own Rangers – he loved it, he loved the adulation and his heid was well turned.

      I’ve never ever seen that he managed to get any real money out of Rangers – he seemed to spend everything in keeping it afloat. I think he was meant to go in, do the job and walk-away with the Ticketus money or a wodge of it. But he didn’t he stayed and it all blew-up.

      I just think the comment by chico last week about first talking to investors about Rangers TWO YEARS AGO is very significant. Who were these investors? Could be a very interesting answer.

      Craigie just about to come on BBC Scotland – so will settle down and see what he has to say :)

      • mcfc

        Kind of agree – he always struck me as the over-reaching chancer who just happened to be holding the shit-bomb when it went off.

  13. ecojon

    @ mcfc

    OK I’ve tried the easy one and just about blown a brain gasket so I have absolutely no intention of going anywhere near the second one – well not till I hear craigie’s patter :)

  14. mick

    a was reading a buddiest thing the other day and it said judge for yourself what is true via your own mind and not what elders or books tell you add the facts then make a judgement

  15. mick

    @mcfc and ecojon green was on ssn there put dont turn on as its reporting scotland now bye back at 7

  16. mcfc

    Has the Scotsman.com stopped taking comments too?

    Former Rangers owner Craig Whyte breaks silence as ‘oldco’ creditors vote to liquidate club – 16 comments @ http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football

    but none shown on the linked page – http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/former-rangers-owner-craig-whyte-breaks-silence-as-oldco-creditors-vote-to-liquidate-club-1-2584184

    Must be expecting a Polish-torrent of abuse – best close the roof then.

  17. mick

    how discusting gorden smith on bbc saying c levin should resign why doesnt the horrible slimmy tax cheat resign his self and criag can have his job and strachan can manage what a horrible call by a horrible man who has no place as a tax cheat in scottish football gorden smith you resign the whole country wants you to go more that levin at least he pays his taxes totally out of order that man

    • ecojon

      @ mick

      we have to stop shooting the messenger or even manager and come to terms with what we actually have as players. If we want better then we need to embark on a long road and tbh I think Levein is as good as any and better than most for at least three-quarters of that journey.

      • mick

        @ecojon of all people to come on the tell gorden smith asking some1 to resign u could not make it up the whole of scotland wants him out before levian

  18. ecojon

    Well as expected it’s a teaser with the real show later. Nothing earth-shattering but then there wouldn’t be as it would allow Green or possibly D&P to apply for an interim interdict tonight. They still could but would be easier if they had some blood-dripping red meat accusation and could categorically say it was a lie.

    It’s a balancing act as even going for the interdict would fuel a press frenzy and tend to see the press identify whoever sought the press ban against the BBC as an attack on all press freedom.

    Even if granted it would be a running story with a big day in court and all the time hurting the flotation.

    So we will see what comes later.

  19. mick

    “They (Duff and Phelps) knew everything, they attended meetings, they were copied into all the emails, they were there on the day of completion. They knew from the start.” CW quote lord hodge has got to act on this if there is real factual data

  20. mick

    did you see him laugh and say you could have bought them chris if you were intrested lol

  21. mick

    a wonder what the viewing figures there were ?

  22. mick

    the fact duff &phelps were recieveing emails snookers them thats the physical evidence and him saying it is the verbal so that is a elecronic trial and a witness visually and verbually ,that to me is mensis resis phyisical and mental evidence case closed

    • ecojon

      @ mick

      Ah without the sent emails and preferably answering ones as well how do you prove there were emails? Even though I shudder when I say this in case De Stefano pops-up – Just being the Deil’s Advokat.

  23. Martin

    In garbled english “the fan base could be moneytised”. Did you hear that Rangers fans?

  24. Martin

    ” HMRC were not great at keeping things confidential either “. Why would anyone expect HMRC to keep their secrets?

  25. Martin

    Who appointed D&P? CW?

    • ecojon

      @ Martin

      Technically the court I would think as they are officers of the court in the final analysis.

      • Martin

        @ ecojon,

        surely Rangers went into voluntary administration appointing a company to execute same.

        • ecojon

          Martin

          I don’t think it matters how it happens because there is a duty to ensure that the creditors are protected so administrators, as far as I am aware, are technically appointed by the court and you did ask who ‘appointed’ them. I also seem to remember there was some dissent at the time and eventually HMRC allowed the ‘Rangers’ choice to be appointed – I think they actually wanted BDO even at thar stage but you’ll find it all in cuts.

  26. COYBIG

    An interesting part of the interview, is when Whyte’s asked if he made any money out of it all. Had he made £2, like Charlie Green said he paid for the club, Whyte would have acknowledged this, he didn’t, instead he said what he made is confidential. Hmm…

  27. Violet Carson

    Mick

    Thank you, thank you, thank you! To borrow a phrase, I am shocked but not surprised. He bought Rangers more or less knowing they would go into liquidation. He knew, more or less, that HMRC would never agree to a CVA. He stopped paying the Tax and VAT further helping HMRC to make its decision. He did not mortgage the future tickets (but surely the money from season tickets is what pays the tax and VAT).

    I said before that I feel like a child at christmas, but christmas was never this good.

  28. ecojon

    @ Violet Carson

    I think you have to be careful about the use of ‘mortgage’ as that was used specifically to explain why he didn’t lie to journalists when challenged by journalists – he gave a politician’s answer.

    It actually says more about how poor our journos are than it does about craigie. They asked the wrong question and swallowed his correct answer to their wrong question hook line and sinker. It is past the worrying stage it is just so sad and inept.

  29. Violet Carson

    Eco

    I was careful, but thanks for the concern. I merely raised a doubt that forward buying the tickets and using that money to fund the acquisition might have had a detrimental effect on running costs.

    • mick

      @violet there all at it whyte green murray the sevco just dont know how to take control of there club a think its there follow follow atitude rather than be a individual they like to be a steryo type its sad for the nice bears as they just get bullied if they stand up and say anything

  30. florian albert

    ‘leading to the overthrow of the Romanov regime by the Bolsheviks’
    You are getting your revolutions in a twist here. The Bolsheviks had almost no involvement in the overthrow of the Romanovs in the February (or March depending on which calendar you use) Revolution. Eight months later, during the Ocotober – or November – revolution, the Bolsheviks seized power and set the unfortunate Russian people on the road to nowhere for over 70 years.

    • ecojon

      will reply to this later today if you pop back – just have to do a bit of work

      • ecojon

        @ florian albert

        Tbh I wasn’t sure if I understood what you were driving at and was just checking my email before heading out the door. Things have been fairly hectic and this is the first chance I have had to respond.

        It appears we have very diverse interpretations as to what constitues the ‘overthrow’ of the Romanovs by the Bolsheviks. One could go back to 1905 and trace the various intermingled strands of revolutionary activity from there.

        But I see no point in going any further back than March 1917, for present purposes, with Tsar Nicholas II abdicating at the suggestion of the Russian Army High Command and the subsequent formation of the Provisional Government. Obviously the issue of continuing hostilities with Germany or not was vital in the the political manouevrings and directly led to Kerensky replacing Lvov.

        In July 1917 Kerensky ordered the arrest of leading Bolsheviks including Lenin but soon had to turn to the Soviets and Red Guard as his support for continuation of WWI created led to his downfall when he lost control of Petrograd by orderig the Cossacks to fire on the barracks of the Tsarskoye Selo Rifles which was the road to disaster and ended with the Bolshevik’s defeating Kerensky’s forces at Pulkova and by 26 October 1917 Lenin and his Bolsheviks were in control and Kerensky had fled Russia.

        By July 1918, after several moves, The former Czar and his immediate family were imprisoned by the Bolsheviks at Ekaterinburg. It should be remmbered that by this time the Russian Civil War beyween the Reds & Whites had broken out.

        The Czechoslovak Legion, a White Army force, was intent on capturing Ekaterinburg and the Bolsheviks panicked that the Czar and his family would be rescued which would inevitably have led to the restoration of the Romanov Monarchy. However as we all know the Moscow Supreme Soviet ordered the execution of the Romanov family and retainers. But it was a close-run thing as the Whites did capture Ekaterinburg.

        I accept that this is a very potted explanation of my position which is that the Romanovs were overthrown by the Bolsheviks. If you still think otherwisw then I would be happy to consider your argument.

        I would point out that this was a fairly light-hearted post primarily on the introduction of football to Russia by Scottish weaver. It was not a historical treatise on the overthrow of the Romanoves as I am well aware that that would take a lifetime of research and involve writing a ‘library’ of books to even scratch the surface of the subject. So if you feel I have skated too thinly over the ‘overthrow’ I would agree with you although I hold fast to my statement that the overthrow was done by the Bolsheviks :)

        • ecojon

          @ florian albert

          On re-reading my ‘answer’ perhaps I should have made it clearer that when I use the term ‘Romanovs’ I do so as a monarchic line and not in reference to Tsar Nicholas as an individual. He of course was merely Comrade Romanov by his death but I have no doubt could have been re-elevated to the monarchy and even it that weren’t possible then one of his direct descendants would have become heir.

          Wikipedia has an interesting argument: ‘The February Revolution of 1917 resulted in abdication of Nicholas II in favor of his brother Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich. The latter declined to accept the crown, terminating the Romanov dynasty’s rule over Russia. (Many believe that the crown did not technically pass to Michael, as Tsarevich Alexei would have automatically succeeded his father, Nicholas II. Thus Alexei would have been the only one who could renounce the crown, Michael could not abdicate, and the crown would still be in the Romanov name.)’

  31. florian albert

    Thanks for your replies.
    I really only wanted to make one important core point, that the overthrow of the Tsar in early 1917 had little to do with the Bolsheviks. Most historians would accept that there were two revolutions in 1917 – as part of a wider revolutionary process lasting many years. The Bolsheviks were not significant players in the February/March Revolution which was the one that led to the Romanov Dynasty losing power. The Bolsheviks had such a record of falsifying history, I did not want to see them getting the credit for ending the Tsarist autocracy – credit which the Russian people deserve. Your later article about Spartak – Dynamo shows you have no illusions about the reality of Communist Russia.

    • ecojon

      @ florian albert

      Interesting points but I seem to detect a certain fixed ‘attitude’ towards the Bolsheviks :)

      I don’t see the Bolsheviks as being distinct from the Russian People – they are one of the many strands that intertwine to create the Russian people – some of these stands were good and some bad and some the jury is still out on and indeed some are like the curate’s egg.

      I have never really accepted that there were two revolutions in 1917 as I firmly believe that Lenin realised that the Mensheviks had to be allowed their seeming success in order to fail and pave the way for the Victory of the Proletariat without any interference from the bourgeoisie.

      I also think you are mistaken to think that the Bolsheviks weren’t significant players in Feb/Mar 1917. They may not have been on the radar but while Kerensky built his power base on Petrograd the Bolsheviks quietly built their base on the Soviets throughout Russia and it was huge in numbers compared to what could be put together in Petrograd which, in the final analysis, amounted to not much more than the Women;s Battalion.

      Then there is the question of the clear anti-war stance of the Bolsheviks whereas the Mensheviks at best were sending mixed messages and all the time as soldiers streamed home from the front the power of the Bolsheviks grew and that of Fortress Petrograd declined.

      I also think the strand that removed the Tsar was clearly the Army High Command although it would be foolish to ignore the collapsing of troop morale and resulting desertions which would have heavily weighed on their decision. But the top brass wanted to keep the Army as intact as possible and there is no doubt that they might, if things had turned out differently, actually overseen the restoration of the Monarchy.

      It is a complex area and, in truth, there are very few absolutes and as always the victor writes the history. I totally accept that the revolution was coppupted and destroyed and I have never ever figured out if it could have been saved and then, and this is the big IF, would the Russian People have suffered more or less than they actually did and are still doing?

  32. florian albert

    I do have a fixed view of the Bolsheviks; they were bad for Russia and the Russians (to say nothing of Ukrainians, Estonians etc) from first to last.
    I doubt you will find many historians who agree when you dispute that there were two revolutions in 1917. I agree there was no easy way forward for Russia in 1917 but a path was taken that – a century on – nobody is inclined to follow.

  33. ecojon

    @ florian albert

    Ah but a century is merely a blink of an eye. Many have been dusting off the old Marxist texts in recent years and I wonder how long our planet can survive against the never-ending appetite and ravages of a totally uncontrolled capitalist world Order?

    I stayed in a Russian village for a month – tiny less than 50 families. It was fascinating because in my earlier university studies in Economics I had never been able to fully understand the barter concept.

    In the middle of Russia in that village I could have been in the 12th century – the village itself was an hour’s walk from the nearest road which was little more than a track. Total isolation, no water, no electricity, no sanitation.

    There was a small hut where everyone gathered once sometimes twice a day and people bartered for food. Everyone produced different things in the village from pigs, cows, hens, milk, eggs, rabbits, birds, dried fish.

    But what fascinated me is the way they ‘knew’ how many eggs a rabbit was worth or two chicken legs or a litre of milk. When I saw barter at work I had no problem in understanding a universal truth in action.

    I also realised the obstacles collectivisation faced in the sense that the villagers tended to have a surplus that the State never saw – just as well. Another thing that has always remained with me is that there was not a scrap wasted as it was fed to the animals and all human waste was recycled for spreading on the vegetables that everyone grew.

    At some stage I have no doubt that the earth may well have to return to that way of life or it and we won’t survive.

  34. florian albert

    As a convinced pessimist – caused by starting supporting Celtic in 1958 – I find the idea of us returning to a barter economy entirely possible. I remember hearing, from my parents, that in the 1930s you could ‘pay for’ admission to the cinema with empty jam jars.

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